Removing the note for the Force (canon)

[HammerStrikes219]

So it has come to my attention that that the Force Nature apparently being accepted as conceptual here.

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   Force Nature powers apply to all Force Powers, as accepted here.”

The Force (Canon)

The Force[Notes 1] is a mysterious energy field created by life that binds the galaxy together. Harnessing the power of the Force gives the Jedi, the Sith, and others sensitive to this spiritual energy extraordinary abilities, such as levitating objects, tricking minds, and seeing things before...

vsbattles.fandom.com

However, we know the nature of the Force isn’t purely conceptual as stated by Obi Wan.

“It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

~~Obi Wan from Star Wars A New Hope.

Even the official Star Wars website page back up Obi Wan’s quote.

https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force

“The Force is a mysterious energy field created by life that binds the galaxy together. Harnessing the power of the Force gives the Jedi, the Sith, and others sensitive to this spiritual energy extraordinary abilities, such as levitating objects, tricking minds, and seeing things before they happen.”

As such, this note should been removed as I specifically will mention the Force isn’t purely conceptual to say the least.

https://www.starwars.com/search?q=The+Force

Should been a minor CRT since I only want this particular note removed and that is all as I ain’t denying the Force being a Type 2 concept.

Just that it is clearly not a pure concept per se as it stands

 

[Phsccarvalho]

However, we know the nature of the Force isn’t purely conceptual as stated by Obi Wan.

The Force is conceptual, you agree with that in the last comment of this OP.

The two scans posted do not say that something is not conceptual, and you do not even explain why you imply that.

Is it energy? Energy can be conceptual. Is it created by living beings? That does not make something not conceptual.

“The Force is a mysterious energy field created by life that binds the galaxy together. Harnessing the power of the Force gives the Jedi, the Sith, and others sensitive to this spiritual energy extraordinary abilities, such as levitating objects, tricking minds, and seeing things before they happen.”

As such, this note should been removed as I specifically will mention the Force isn’t purely conceptual to say the least.


https://www.starwars.com/search?q=The+Force

Should been a minor CRT since I only want this particular note removed and that is all as I ain’t denying the Force being a Type 2 concept.

Just that it is clearly not a pure concept per se as it stands

You agree with CM2, then you agree that the Force is conceptual.

If you are saying that the nature of the Force does not apply to Force Powers, you have literally not addressed the argument used in the crt that added this.

Life creates the Force and makes it grow, forming the spiritual energy field that binds the universe. All Force powers began with this realization, granting these extraordinary abilities to Jedi, Sith, and other Force-sensitive beings.

• In short, with the justification of what the Force is and the fact that life created the Force and that all the Force powers that give abilities to sensitives have arisen, the powers of the Force nature should apply to all Force powers. A note will be included on the Force page.

Quote from my crt who added the note.
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None of the scans you provided explained why the Force is not entirely conceptual. None of the scans say that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The Force is conceptual, you agree with that in the last comment of this OP.

The two scans posted do not say that something is not conceptual, and you do not even explain why you imply that.

Is it energy? Energy can be conceptual. Is it created by living beings? That does not make something not conceptual.

You agree with CM2, then you agree that the Force is conceptual.

If you are saying that the nature of the Force does not apply to Force Powers, you have literally not addressed the argument used in the crt that added this.

Quote from my crt who added the note.
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None of the scans you provided explained why the Force is not entirely conceptual. None of the scans say that.

Your sources literally states the Force not being purely conceptual to begin with.

Hell, you are literally proving my point that the Force isn’t purely conceptual to begin with.

Is it non physical? Yes

Is the Force purely conceptual?

No as clearly proven here with multiple statements backing it up. I have no reason to believe the Force is purely conceptual if I gonna been honest with you if other sources say otherwise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, awaiting more input.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Is it energy? Energy can be conceptual. Is it created by living beings? That does not make something not conceptual.

Energy also can’t been purely conceptual even with the logic provided here.

Again, it is mentioned multiple times the Force is a energy field provided by all living things and therefore, it clearly can’t been purely conceptual as it can affect physical things from Force Users

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Your sources literally states the Force not being purely conceptual to begin with.

Where in the scans does it say that? Does it say in so many words that it is not purely conceptual? Or that it refutes this idea?

Especially when we have an entire justification for the Force explaining why it is all conceptual. And you didn't refute any of this, nor did you explain why it is not purely conceptual.

(The Force is a spiritual energy field and a metaphysical power that connects and exists between all things, making life flow, uniting the universe—an energy created by all living beings, which surrounding them, penetrating them, living within them, and being everything. The Force is life, death, rebirth, and everything in between; the very embodiment of life and death, past and future, everything and nothing; a fundamental unit that sustains all creation, containing dualities such as life and death or light and dark, which it holds in balance while also transcending them)

- reference: force page

Is it non physical? Yes

You summing up the entire justification of the Force as simply non-physical is laughable.

The Force in its truest form is a spiritual power, a metaphysical power, a fundamental unity that sustains all creation - being in itself, containing and transcending dualities.

I don't know if you know, but a concept is a metaphysical aspect.

No as clearly proven here with multiple statements backing it up. I have no reason to believe the Force is purely conceptual if I gonna been honest with you if other sources say otherwise.

Clearly proven here

You literally did not explain why these statements refute something that is purely conceptual. You just threw them in there and said "clearly refute that idea because yes."

In fact, the statements you used are currently accepted as supporting statements for the general idea of Force being conceptual, so in order for you to use your interpretation of these statements, you have to explain them.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Energy also can’t been purely conceptual even with the logic provided here.

Again, it is mentioned multiple times the Force is a energy field provided by all living things and therefore, it clearly can’t been purely conceptual as it can affect physical things from Force Users

Energy can be purely conceptual, seriously, cite a source to the contrary.

You're just saying "it can't be because I don't think it can"

Cite any vsbattle page that states that energy can't be purely conceptual.

Especially when the Force is in all words a metaphysical energy (literally written that way).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Energy can be purely conceptual, seriously, cite a source to the contrary.

You're just saying "it can't be because I don't think it can"

Cite any vsbattle page that states that energy can't be purely conceptual.

Especially when the Force is in all words a metaphysical energy (literally written that way).

Metaphysical doesn’t mean it has to been strictly been conceptual though.

It can also involve non physical things like the mind and soul as well. I have no clue why you will think metaphysical will been equalized to conceptual as that is not even true inherently speaking.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Energy can be purely conceptual, seriously, cite a source to the contrary.

You're just saying "it can't be because I don't think it can"

Cite any vsbattle page that states that energy can't be purely conceptual.

Especially when the Force is in all words a metaphysical energy (literally written that way).

Why would energy been purely conceptual though?

To say a negative to prove a negative isn’t a good idea when Energy itself isn’t purely conceptual without any clarification on the nature of energy in fiction.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Metaphysical doesn’t mean it has to been strictly been conceptual though.

It can also involve non physical things like the mind, soul, and body as well. I have no clue why you will think metaphysical will been equalized to conceptual as that is not even true inherently speaking.

Yes, metaphysical may not be, like the soul.

But here it is, and you do not explain otherwise.

- Energy can be conceptual.

Metaphysical aspects involve things like souls and even concepts -

- The Force is a metaphysical energy.

It is literally accepted with countless justifications that the Force is both conceptual and spiritual in reference to its metaphysical aspects. Justifications that you did not cite or refute, just ignored.

Furthermore, the Force can be many things at once. It can be a spiritual energy, a conceptual energy, etc. at the same time and all of it can be applied.

The simplest example I can give from vsbattle for this is when soul and mind are the exact same thing, so when this is linked Soul and Mind have always been linked together at the same time.
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Now we have the issue of Force Powers having the same nature as the Force.

Life creates the Force, life creates this conceptual and spiritual metaphysical energy. Life makes the Force grow.

And it is said in so many words that this realization, the act of life creating this conceptual and spiritual metaphysical energy, it is said that ALL Force Powers come from this realization.
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You again do not explain why your evidence suggests that the Force is not purely conceptual, you ignore countless scans and you still do not cite any type of source from vsbattle.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Why would energy been purely conceptual though?

To say a negative to prove a negative isn’t a good idea when Energy itself isn’t purely conceptual without any clarification on the nature of energy in fiction.

Because it is literally accepted that the Force as a whole is conceptual (among countless things like spiritual too)

You are the one who is doing the CRT to refute this, you are the one who has to provide evidence of what you say.

Because what I say is already accepted in this way, there is already an accepted interpretation in this way.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, metaphysical may not be, like the soul.

But here it is, and you do not explain otherwise.

- Energy can be conceptual.

Metaphysical aspects involve things like souls and even concepts -

- The Force is a metaphysical energy.

It is literally accepted with countless justifications that the Force is both conceptual and spiritual in reference to its metaphysical aspects. Justifications that you did not cite or refute, just ignored.

Furthermore, the Force can be many things at once. It can be a spiritual energy, a conceptual energy, etc. at the same time and all of it can be applied.

The simplest example I can give from vsbattle for this is when soul and mind are the exact same thing, so when this is linked Soul and Mind have always been linked together at the same time.
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Now we have the issue of Force Powers having the same nature as the Force.

Life creates the Force, life creates this conceptual and spiritual metaphysical energy. Life makes the Force grow.

And it is said in so many words that this realization, the act of life creating this conceptual and spiritual metaphysical energy, it is said that ALL Force Powers come from this realization.
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You again do not explain why your evidence suggests that the Force is not purely conceptual, you ignore countless scans and you still do not cite any type of source from vsbattle.

“Should been a minor CRT since I only want this particular note removed and that is all as I ain’t denying the Force being a Type 2 concept.

Just that it is clearly not a pure concept per se as it stands”

Either way, I like to note the energy manipulation page here.

Energy Manipulation

The ability to manipulate energy. One of the most ubiquitous and versatile abilities found throughout fiction. It allows use of energy for various purposes, particularly for attack, defense, or improvement of performance. Includes manipulation of both internal and external energy. Obtaining...

vsbattles.fandom.com

It list multiple types of energy outside of solely metaphysical part as even bring up the spiritual part in said page.


Also, you have a fair point to consider that the Force is what empowered the user to do many things.

List of which involves telekinesis and stuff.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

“Should been a minor CRT since I only want this particular note removed and that is all as I ain’t denying the Force being a Type 2 concept.

Just that it is clearly not a pure concept per se as it stands”

Either way, I like to note the energy manipulation page here.

Energy Manipulation

The ability to manipulate energy. One of the most ubiquitous and versatile abilities found throughout fiction. It allows use of energy for various purposes, particularly for attack, defense, or improvement of performance. Includes manipulation of both internal and external energy. Obtaining...

vsbattles.fandom.com

It list multiple types of energy outside of solely metaphysical part as even bring up the spiritual part in said page.


Also, you have a fair point to consider that the Force is what empowered the user to do many things.

List of which involves telekinesis and stuff.

Nothing on the page says that energy cannot be conceptual. Energy can be a lot of things, and all of these things at the same time. In the case of SW, it is spiritual and conceptual at the same time.

Also, seriously, do you know what example the page uses as the image on the side? The energy of Chaos, an energy that is CM1.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Nothing on the page says that energy cannot be conceptual. Energy can be a lot of things, and all of these things at the same time. In the case of SW, it is spiritual and conceptual at the same time.

Also, seriously, do you know what example the page uses as the image on the side? The energy of Chaos, an energy that is CM1.

It also listed other Users like Aang from Avatar the Last Airbender who use Chi as well.

Again, the point is that Energy also cannot been pure conceptual as well if you don’t understanding what I am saying.

However, I will conceded on the Note Removal as it honestly is stupid on my end, but even then, there is literally no evidence of the Force being purely conceptual as the spiritual energy field being created by living beings means the Force has a aspect that is clearly not purely conceptual.


As I say, in my own OP, I not denying that the Force is Type 2 Concept, the issue is that it ain’t purely conceptual to begin with.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It also listed other Users like Aang from Avatar the Last Airbender who use Chi as well.

Because there are several types of energy, man.

Not all types of energy in fiction are the same in appearance. What exactly the energy is is the verse that will index.

In Avatar it is just chi, in Star Wars it is a spiritual and conceptual energy.

The page lists energies of all types as an example, from normal to conceptual.

Nothing here refutes anything about the Force being a conceptual energy.

Again, the point is that Energy also cannot been pure conceptual as well if you don’t understanding what I am saying.

And you don't cite anything to prove it. The energy page is just a generic page for energy, energy in fiction can be a ton of things, from nothing major to conceptual.

The page's own example is chaos energy, which is a CM1 energy in general application.

However, I will conceded on the Note Removal as it honestly is stupid on my end, but even then, there is literally no evidence of the Force being purely conceptual as energy field being created by living beings means the Force has a aspect that is clearly not purely conceptual.


As I say, in my own OP, I not denying that the Force is Type 2 Concept, the issue is that it ain’t purely conceptual to begin with.

Being an energy created by living beings does not in any way refute that this energy is not conceptual, but rather that in this version, living beings created this type of energy. And force is a conceptual energy, for all that immense justification that I put on the page explaining that it is not just a generic energy, that it is metaphysical, that it is spiritual, that it is an energy that is a fundamental unit that sustains creation and an energy that is, contains, balances and transcends dualities. Force is not simply summarized as "energy created by living beings"

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Because there are several types of energy, man.

Not all types of energy in fiction are the same in appearance. What exactly the energy is is the verse that will index.

In Avatar it is just chi, in Star Wars it is a spiritual and conceptual energy.

The page lists energies of all types as an example, from normal to conceptual.

Nothing here refutes anything about the Force being a conceptual energy.


And you don't cite anything to prove it. The energy page is just a generic page for energy, energy in fiction can be a ton of things, from nothing major to conceptual.

The page's own example is chaos energy, which is a CM1 energy in general application.


Being an energy created by living beings does not in any way refute that this energy is not conceptual, but rather that in this version, living beings created this type of energy. And force is a conceptual energy, for all that immense justification that I put on the page explaining that it is not just a generic energy, that it is metaphysical, that it is spiritual, that it is an energy that is a fundamental unit that sustains creation and an energy that is, contains, balances and transcends dualities. Force is not simply summarized as "energy created by living beings"

I already say that like earlier on.


“It list multiple types of energy outside of solely metaphysical part as even bring up the spiritual part in said page.”


As for the energy created by living beings.

“Life creates the Force and makes it grow, forming the spiritual energy field that binds the universe.”

We have multiple statements confirming that the Force is dependent on existence of living beings like Obi Wan Kenobi and other force users, non Force sensitive, and so on.

And Force Users are physical living beings that can use the Force in many ways hence why I arguing for the Force not being purely conceptual.

Again, just because the Force is conceptual doesn’t mean it will exclude things like the soul, the mind, and so on (Your scans again literally involves spiritual parts which ain’t conceptual by nature)


It involved every non physical things such as their soul and mind as well.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I already say that like earlier on.


“It list multiple types of energy outside of solely metaphysical part as even bring up the spiritual part in said page.”


As for the energy created by living beings.

“Life creates the Force and makes it grow, forming the spiritual energy field that binds the universe.”

We have multiple statements confirming that the Force is dependent on existence of living beings like Obi Wan Kenobi and other force users, non Force sensitive, and so on.

And Force Users are physical living beings that can use the Force in many ways hence why I arguing for the Force not being purely conceptual.

Again, just because the Force is conceptual doesn’t mean it will exclude things like the soul, the mind, and so on (Your scans again literally involves spiritual things which ain’t conceptual by nature)


It involved every non physical things such as their soul and mind as well.

We have multiple statements confirming that the Force is dependent on existence of living beings like Obi Wan Kenobi and other force users, non Force sensitive, and so on.

I don't know if you know, but this does not refute CM, especially when it is CM2. Let's say that the extinction of all living things caused the Force to no longer exist, this does not refute it being CM2, because CM2 is literally that.

It is said on the CM page that the abstraction CM2 exists in a way that is linked and dependent on the physical object of this concept, that is, if all these physical objects are erased from existence, the object CM2 will also be erased from existence.

The fact that the Force depends on living beings does not refute it being CM2.

And Force Users are physical living beings that can use the Force in many ways hence why I arguing for the Force not being purely conceptual.

Again, just because the Force is conceptual doesn’t mean it will exclude things like the soul, the mind, and so on (Your scans again literally involves spiritual things which ain’t conceptual by nature) It involved every non physical things such as their soul and mind as well.

Force Users manipulate force energy, they are manipulating a metaphysical conceptual and spiritual energy.

Just because physical beings manipulate conceptual things doesn't mean that thing isn't conceptual. Like, we have CM for a reason, and if that argument were valid, no physical being on the wiki would be able to have CM.

You arguing that "physical beings manipulate a concept = that thing isn't really a concept" is not a rule or disqualifier for CM on this wiki. You literally aren't even citing sources as to why that would be the case, and why that logic is valid.
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Also, I don't know if you know, but souls can be concepts too. The Force being a spiritual energy doesn't refute it also being conceptual at the same time, especially when soul and concept are metaphysical aspects, and the Force is a metaphysical energy.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don

Souls ain’t concepts so either way, I don’t exactly see how this disprove the Force not being purely conceptual.

Again, you are actually helping my argument of the Force not being purely conceptual as it has every aspect of being non physical and all.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also at this point, I think this CRT is dead on arrival for the Note removal as I kinda got the brainfart as I will concede on that part. The Force not being purely conceptual is something I want to do instead

Either way, I will get this OP closed

Neutral for now, awaiting more input.

You can close this with my permission as it is kinda unnecessary.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Souls ain’t concepts so either way, I don’t exactly see how this disprove the Force not being purely conceptual.

Again, you are actually helping my argument of the Force not being purely conceptual as it has every aspect of being non physical and all.

The Force is both spiritual and conceptual as currently accepted. I don't know if you know but spiritual energies can be conceptual at the same time, and so it is with the Force it is both things at the same time simultaneously in its metaphysical aspects.

When an energy or something is both things at the same time, we simultaneously index everything together, we don't separate it or anything like that.