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1. Uncontroversial Stuff.
vsbattles.fandom.com
(References will be added later, everything is already written in each Imgur album anyway)
So, I remade the cosmology blog to add the new stuff and modify whatever was deemed as wrong or superfluous. I had to rewrite everything because it was a pain in the ass to not start from scratch, but if needed, I can always tweak it, add things or removing things.
TLDR :
=> Added shared settings with Paella pookie
=> Added some information about the Sea/Celestial Foundation
=> Added the Celestial Chain
=> Removed Celestial Foundation Eater, Higher-Universes and "The End" parts. (Everything will be explained below as to why)
2. Wow, you're such a higher-level cosmology!
Everything related to higher dimensionality within the verse comes from a single sentence spoken by UEG. I purposely omit The Abyss here because it's a completely different topic.
The sentence mentioned is this one :
Everything comes down to "高次元" which is a word specifically used for mathematical higher dimensions. If UEG used these Japanese characters to describe Touichirou, it must mean it's related to being higher-dimensional, right? Well, not entirely.
To explain the following point, I'll use two examples from other light novels.
Another example is the following:
What I'm trying to convey here isn't that "since others did it like this, therefore ID is the same" but more so to open the possibility that "高次元" isn't as self-explanatory as it seems when you delve deeper into the topic.
In the case we're interested in, UEG and Toichirou, UEG used "高次元" not as a means to explain that "Touichirou was a higher dimensional/4th dimensional being and above" but instead to convey the fact that she didn't expect Toichirou to be so capable/so strong.
Here's the scene so that you can understand what I mean. (I'll use the official translation since it's simpler)
According to the current scaling, Touichirou… hid his higher dimensionality, despite the fact we're told that UEG's sentence was referring to his potential? Nothing in this scene deals with his existential nature nor his dimensionality, it's merely about his capability/powers.
Furthermore, according to the tiering system FAQ, we're told this:
Despite my problems with the official translation, translating "高次元" by "higher-level" was probably the best choice for translators, especially considering the scene itself.
This is not the only argument I want to present. For the second argument, I'll ask everyone to read this scene :
In the Raw version, the exact term used is "多元宇宙" which is commonly translated as "Multiverse".
To make it easier to understand.
Both started in the same universe. Moments later, UEG got outside the starting universe to reach the level of the multiverse and destroy the universe she came from originally. Toichiro anticipated this and got outside the universe and multiverse (where UEG is currently located) to reach the higher-universe that contains said universe and destroy it. This setup is repeated as long as they want.
I just described the "Nested Universe" system inside the Instant Death Cosmology. No dimensional hierarchy or "bigger infinities" that would warrant higher ratings.
Similarly, the term used for "Higher-Universes" is "上位" which more or less means "of a higher rank". Since we're talking about universes within universes, it's understandable that the universe that encompasses a multiverse is "a higher-order universe" since hierarchically, it's "outside" the multiverse he encompasses.
Additionally, if we delve into the author's works that aren't ID, we get a clear view of what he meant. In another of his works called "The Demon King is Unbeatable" we get a character explaining the cosmology.
As you can see, there was never a difference in dimensions or anything that could warrant a tier 1 rating.
TLDR : Just read this message from Executor_N0.
As such, the "Higher-Universes" would scale at 2-B. But frankly, there is no need for such a part in the cosmology, just put everything under the category of "Ultimate Ensemble World" just as I did in the blog.
Bonus Part
Currently, higher levels God such as UEG or Touichirou have this justification for their Immeasurable lifting strength :
As you can see, we have a character from that "Sea of Stars" UEG and Touichirou fought in, who, thanks to a spaceship, reached and crashed on Earth years ago. If we follow the current justification, it would mean that the spacecraft itself is higher-dimensional, and the Earth could tank the crash of said spaceship. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Therefore, it should be changed accordingly. It's probably in the range of Stellar/Galactic LS.
3. The case of Parallel Worlds.
There exist parallel worlds or alternative timelines in the verse. It's proven at different times during the novel. For example, with Darian "dying and going back to the past, effectively diverging to another timeline", Lynel with his Random Walk ability that sends his soul to "another world", or even UEG's statement about numerous parallel worlds (next to infinite).
However, I want to insist, we DO NOT know at which level does the parallel worlds operates. One thing is for sure, however, it's that the timelines aren't operating in each Celestial Foundation independently. At the very least, they operate within "The Sea" (effectively making multiple parallel versions of the Sea) with a possibility that parallel worlds operate on the highest degree of the verse just below the Ultimate Ensemble World.
One of the most obvious proofs is with the Celestial Foundation Eater. When one of them targeted Paella's CF, it physically grabbed the Canopy and forced it to open, however, that's impossible unless we assume the timeline itself is bigger than simply a single CF, because if not, it would mean the Big Fish was lucky enough to...only find the good timeline? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
Additionally, there comes the problem with Mitsuki. He was called an exception in the Ultimate Ensemble World (Meaning, the whole cosmology, including parallel worlds) and only the Mitsuki from the "prime timeline" (the one we follow) took over the Celestial Foundation of Kouryu. However, if we were to make the assumption that alternative timelines exist solely on the level of CF, it means that he somehow took over...all the alternative timelines? That there exist as much Yogiri and Mitsuki "fighting" than there are of timelines? When Yogiri is also very much an exception? Yeah, no.
Finally, the fact people can just go into the sea with spaceships and attack another Celestial Foundation should be enough evidence to discredit the idea that "parallel universes exist within CFs". It happens not once but twice by the way.
There is also the fact that when parallel worlds are subject to something, they are always mentioned. We never had any such mentions for CF solely. It was always a very vague term.
Well, in any case, CF doesn't encompass alternative timelines anyway, since they are very much physical.
Now, regarding the important part. There exists a character in The Demon King is Unbeatable that has two powers. Search and Summon.
The first is the most important one. It allows him to search a target from the multitudes of infinitely diverging parallel worlds. Additionally, there is also a statement which explains that while the number of parallel worlds is unknown, the existence of diverging worlds with slight differences in their conditions implies that there must be an infinite number of them. One might therefore be tempted to put the number of parallel worlds as infinite, basically 2-A.
However. Paella pookie is the one to prove that statement wrong. To put it in perspective, she's the one who stated that Infinity is an abstract concept and can't exist physically. Note that this statement was made a volume before the one about the universes.
Just after Bizarre explain his power, he tries to summon a being stronger than Paella, which fails, obviously. We get this explanation from Paella:
4. Yogiri.
Yogiri is a law of the Ultimate Ensemble World. Therefore, no matter what, his range would scale to the whole cosmology. This is only for the "passive" part of his ability, however, since we have proof that he needs to be aware of worlds to affect them actively.
The biggest problem is his AP section. Recently, it was accepted that Yogiri is more or less doing something similar to an Existence Erasure. Due to its specific nature, it can't scale to his AP (logic), however, one might bring the fact that "he said he could always destroy all the worlds and everything in between to reach home". This is true, however, this is not the normal usage of his power. As you can see here, if we take the example of the Moon, killing it "normally" wouldn't do anything since it would act and stay the same in the sky. However, if needed, his power can also "destroy it" instead of just letting it hang above. Since this isn't a normal usage of his power, I would suggest including an "Environmental Destruction" rating on his profile, rather than an "AP with Hax".
Basically, it would go with something like this:
10-C physically, at least 4-A with Environmental Destruction, possibly higher.
(4-A here is a placeholder at the lowest possible rating one could give.)
5. The Impossible Question.
Infinity can't exist in the verse, at all. It's solely an abstract concept and can't be implemented in reality. As such, and according to our standards, the verse, no matter how impressive, shouldn't get past 3-A in terms of scaling. You can check the staff answers I got on that thread.
Mind you, this is something still up to date, like when Mitsuki verbatim states he can't give someone infinite energy. The translation is shit, honestly, but here's the raw and a better translation:
One is about the Omega Sword, using the energy of the world (current Celestial Foundation), explaining it's impossible to create anything infinite. (Mind you, it's the world Mitsuki dreams up).
One is about that scan with a "barrier that extends infinitely the distance to the basement," but frankly, it's just "Gojo's infinity," so not worth mentioning and proving once again that the usage of "Infinity" just means "really long". This is also something that happened with Paella Pookie.
I could go on, but basically, all the mentions of infinity are either hyperbolic or just not infinite at all. As far as I'm aware, there is no literal usage of "infinity" in the verse.
Just a quick note, but Space and Time are part of a single indivisible whole, so even if some people want to reduce Paella pookie statement as "it's only valid for space" (which wouldn't even be the case, since we're talking about implementation in reality), it would still concern time.
Therefore, we have to make a decision. Either we follow strictly what is written within the novel, resulting in the verse never reaching above 3-A (unless the author retcon it one way or another, which seems unlikely) or we decide to sligthly ignore the statement to at least acknowledge parallel worlds as legitimate.
Personally, I feel like the intent of the author is strong enough to accept those parallel worlds as 2-B. However, that's not for me to decide.
Here are the three possible options:
1: Verse peak at 3-A, nothing else beside layers.
2: Verse peak at 2-B thanks to parallel worlds.
3: Verse is rated at 3-A, with a "possibly 2-B" rating.
6. Why did I remove X?
I'll try to make it simple and quick.
Celestial Foundation Eater : I think it has no reason at all to be on a cosmology page. It offers nothing of value regarding the cosmology.
Higher-Universes : Those are a made-up name for the universes that exist beyond the Sea and such, it has nothing of value either and are just "the space outside of a certain space", meaningless to make a part for them. I preferred to put them under the "Ultimate Ensemble World" scaling for obvious reasons.
The End : Yogiri "true form" is simply a Rule of the Ultimate Ensemble World. If we make a part for him in the blog, then we might as well put the law that makes stuff eternal too.
Summary:
=> Higher-universes are not 1-B anymore and we remove it from the cosmology page
=> Everyone who has a rating into tier 1 get revised (if infinity isn't accepted, then same but with tier 2)
=> Changes into LS for a few characters.
=> Changes in Yogiri's profile/ability.
-----
Votes for Infinity:
Accept it sligthly for parallel worlds: Rikimarox2 (only possibly/option 3), The_golden_and_silver_house94 (same), Shar122 (same), Ovy7 (option 3), MeiouHades (Option 3), Tank1418 (option 3), Theglassman12 (Option 3), Ultimuru (Option 2), Arency (Option 2), Frey_Starlight (Option 3), Ruler_Star_Kuma (Option 3), sukuna171 (Option 3), Lormac_CC (Option 3), ShiroChan56 (Option 3), EldemadeDityjon (Option 2), Secimatar (Option 3), Gewsbumpz_dude (Option 3), Caduz213 (Option 3), PrimeHydra64 (Option 3), Celestial_Pegasus (Option 3), Vietthai96 (Option 3), SatellaTheWoE (Option 3), SonGoku_9377 (Option 3), IDK3465 (Option 3), Qawsedf234 (Option 3), ActuallySpaceMan42 (Option 3)
Don't accept it: ExcelsisBerny (Option 2), Legacy30, Grabbing_dragon (Option 1), Tzimtzumim (Option 1)
No opinion:
-----
Votes for the rest (Yogiri ED etc):
Agree: ExcelsisBerny, Legacy30, Rikimarox2 (Unsure about Yogurt stuff), Ovy7, Grabbing_dragon, Ruler_Star_Kuma (fine with Yogiri's ED), Qawsedf234, ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree:
Neutral: PrimeHydra64, The_golden_and_silver_house94 (neutral on ED),
SweetDao/changes
vsbattles.fandom.com
So, I remade the cosmology blog to add the new stuff and modify whatever was deemed as wrong or superfluous. I had to rewrite everything because it was a pain in the ass to not start from scratch, but if needed, I can always tweak it, add things or removing things.
TLDR :
=> Added shared settings with Paella pookie
=> Added some information about the Sea/Celestial Foundation
=> Added the Celestial Chain
=> Removed Celestial Foundation Eater, Higher-Universes and "The End" parts. (Everything will be explained below as to why)
2. Wow, you're such a higher-level cosmology!
Everything related to higher dimensionality within the verse comes from a single sentence spoken by UEG. I purposely omit The Abyss here because it's a completely different topic.
The sentence mentioned is this one :
Everything comes down to "高次元" which is a word specifically used for mathematical higher dimensions. If UEG used these Japanese characters to describe Touichirou, it must mean it's related to being higher-dimensional, right? Well, not entirely.
To explain the following point, I'll use two examples from other light novels.
As you can see, despite "高次元" being used to deal with a "higher dimensional expression of music/performance" it's not a four-dimensional music that the character is playing right now. Just so we are clear here, the usage of "高次元" isn't "figurative", IT IS a higher level that the character is achieving. Ultimately, it means that the author didn't use the exact definition, which is higher dimensional, but instead the idea of a "higher dimension" without pointing to a specific definition. If I say that this character who's running achieved a "higher dimension of performance", it wouldn't mean he's four-dimensional, even if I used "高次元" to describe it.
Another example is the following:
Once again, you can see that despite the usage of "高次元", it wasn't used to mean that the figure (since in the context, they were talking about a figure iirc) suddenly achieved a higher dimensional status thanks to the quality. It just means it's "better" in terms of quality.
What I'm trying to convey here isn't that "since others did it like this, therefore ID is the same" but more so to open the possibility that "高次元" isn't as self-explanatory as it seems when you delve deeper into the topic.
In the case we're interested in, UEG and Toichirou, UEG used "高次元" not as a means to explain that "Touichirou was a higher dimensional/4th dimensional being and above" but instead to convey the fact that she didn't expect Toichirou to be so capable/so strong.
Here's the scene so that you can understand what I mean. (I'll use the official translation since it's simpler)
According to the current scaling, Touichirou… hid his higher dimensionality, despite the fact we're told that UEG's sentence was referring to his potential? Nothing in this scene deals with his existential nature nor his dimensionality, it's merely about his capability/powers.
Furthermore, according to the tiering system FAQ, we're told this:
The fact that we're giving 1-B rating based on a single misinterpreted sentence is incomprehensible to me.
Despite my problems with the official translation, translating "高次元" by "higher-level" was probably the best choice for translators, especially considering the scene itself.
This is not the only argument I want to present. For the second argument, I'll ask everyone to read this scene :
Seeing that the words "dimensional space" are used, one might think that the term "higher dimensional" used by UEG sometime before was the right way to interpret it, along with being quite literal. However, this is not the case.
In the Raw version, the exact term used is "多元宇宙" which is commonly translated as "Multiverse".
As you can see, they don't go "outside a dimensional space" but outside the multiverse that contains the universe of the opponent.
To make it easier to understand.
Both started in the same universe. Moments later, UEG got outside the starting universe to reach the level of the multiverse and destroy the universe she came from originally. Toichiro anticipated this and got outside the universe and multiverse (where UEG is currently located) to reach the higher-universe that contains said universe and destroy it. This setup is repeated as long as they want.
I just described the "Nested Universe" system inside the Instant Death Cosmology. No dimensional hierarchy or "bigger infinities" that would warrant higher ratings.
Similarly, the term used for "Higher-Universes" is "上位" which more or less means "of a higher rank". Since we're talking about universes within universes, it's understandable that the universe that encompasses a multiverse is "a higher-order universe" since hierarchically, it's "outside" the multiverse he encompasses.
Additionally, if we delve into the author's works that aren't ID, we get a clear view of what he meant. In another of his works called "The Demon King is Unbeatable" we get a character explaining the cosmology.
As you can see, there was never a difference in dimensions or anything that could warrant a tier 1 rating.
TLDR : Just read this message from Executor_N0.
As such, the "Higher-Universes" would scale at 2-B. But frankly, there is no need for such a part in the cosmology, just put everything under the category of "Ultimate Ensemble World" just as I did in the blog.
Bonus Part
Currently, higher levels God such as UEG or Touichirou have this justification for their Immeasurable lifting strength :
However, not only would it be impacted by this thread, but there is also evidence that contradicts such justification directly within Volume 15 as seen here.
As you can see, we have a character from that "Sea of Stars" UEG and Touichirou fought in, who, thanks to a spaceship, reached and crashed on Earth years ago. If we follow the current justification, it would mean that the spacecraft itself is higher-dimensional, and the Earth could tank the crash of said spaceship. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Therefore, it should be changed accordingly. It's probably in the range of Stellar/Galactic LS.
3. The case of Parallel Worlds.
There exist parallel worlds or alternative timelines in the verse. It's proven at different times during the novel. For example, with Darian "dying and going back to the past, effectively diverging to another timeline", Lynel with his Random Walk ability that sends his soul to "another world", or even UEG's statement about numerous parallel worlds (next to infinite).
However, I want to insist, we DO NOT know at which level does the parallel worlds operates. One thing is for sure, however, it's that the timelines aren't operating in each Celestial Foundation independently. At the very least, they operate within "The Sea" (effectively making multiple parallel versions of the Sea) with a possibility that parallel worlds operate on the highest degree of the verse just below the Ultimate Ensemble World.
One of the most obvious proofs is with the Celestial Foundation Eater. When one of them targeted Paella's CF, it physically grabbed the Canopy and forced it to open, however, that's impossible unless we assume the timeline itself is bigger than simply a single CF, because if not, it would mean the Big Fish was lucky enough to...only find the good timeline? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
Additionally, there comes the problem with Mitsuki. He was called an exception in the Ultimate Ensemble World (Meaning, the whole cosmology, including parallel worlds) and only the Mitsuki from the "prime timeline" (the one we follow) took over the Celestial Foundation of Kouryu. However, if we were to make the assumption that alternative timelines exist solely on the level of CF, it means that he somehow took over...all the alternative timelines? That there exist as much Yogiri and Mitsuki "fighting" than there are of timelines? When Yogiri is also very much an exception? Yeah, no.
Finally, the fact people can just go into the sea with spaceships and attack another Celestial Foundation should be enough evidence to discredit the idea that "parallel universes exist within CFs". It happens not once but twice by the way.
There is also the fact that when parallel worlds are subject to something, they are always mentioned. We never had any such mentions for CF solely. It was always a very vague term.
Well, in any case, CF doesn't encompass alternative timelines anyway, since they are very much physical.
Now, regarding the important part. There exists a character in The Demon King is Unbeatable that has two powers. Search and Summon.
The first is the most important one. It allows him to search a target from the multitudes of infinitely diverging parallel worlds. Additionally, there is also a statement which explains that while the number of parallel worlds is unknown, the existence of diverging worlds with slight differences in their conditions implies that there must be an infinite number of them. One might therefore be tempted to put the number of parallel worlds as infinite, basically 2-A.
However. Paella pookie is the one to prove that statement wrong. To put it in perspective, she's the one who stated that Infinity is an abstract concept and can't exist physically. Note that this statement was made a volume before the one about the universes.
Just after Bizarre explain his power, he tries to summon a being stronger than Paella, which fails, obviously. We get this explanation from Paella:
Obviously, Paella claims herself to be the Ultimate Life Form since the first volume, therefore, she explicitely killed all version of herself across all possibles universes and still declared that infinity doesn't exist, that it is just "a big number that you think is infinite".
4. Yogiri.
Yogiri is a law of the Ultimate Ensemble World. Therefore, no matter what, his range would scale to the whole cosmology. This is only for the "passive" part of his ability, however, since we have proof that he needs to be aware of worlds to affect them actively.
The biggest problem is his AP section. Recently, it was accepted that Yogiri is more or less doing something similar to an Existence Erasure. Due to its specific nature, it can't scale to his AP (logic), however, one might bring the fact that "he said he could always destroy all the worlds and everything in between to reach home". This is true, however, this is not the normal usage of his power. As you can see here, if we take the example of the Moon, killing it "normally" wouldn't do anything since it would act and stay the same in the sky. However, if needed, his power can also "destroy it" instead of just letting it hang above. Since this isn't a normal usage of his power, I would suggest including an "Environmental Destruction" rating on his profile, rather than an "AP with Hax".
Basically, it would go with something like this:
10-C physically, at least 4-A with Environmental Destruction, possibly higher.
(4-A here is a placeholder at the lowest possible rating one could give.)
5. The Impossible Question.
Infinity can't exist in the verse, at all. It's solely an abstract concept and can't be implemented in reality. As such, and according to our standards, the verse, no matter how impressive, shouldn't get past 3-A in terms of scaling. You can check the staff answers I got on that thread.
Mind you, this is something still up to date, like when Mitsuki verbatim states he can't give someone infinite energy. The translation is shit, honestly, but here's the raw and a better translation:
Alongside some other statements.
One is about the Omega Sword, using the energy of the world (current Celestial Foundation), explaining it's impossible to create anything infinite. (Mind you, it's the world Mitsuki dreams up).
One is about that scan with a "barrier that extends infinitely the distance to the basement," but frankly, it's just "Gojo's infinity," so not worth mentioning and proving once again that the usage of "Infinity" just means "really long". This is also something that happened with Paella Pookie.
I could go on, but basically, all the mentions of infinity are either hyperbolic or just not infinite at all. As far as I'm aware, there is no literal usage of "infinity" in the verse.
Just a quick note, but Space and Time are part of a single indivisible whole, so even if some people want to reduce Paella pookie statement as "it's only valid for space" (which wouldn't even be the case, since we're talking about implementation in reality), it would still concern time.
Therefore, we have to make a decision. Either we follow strictly what is written within the novel, resulting in the verse never reaching above 3-A (unless the author retcon it one way or another, which seems unlikely) or we decide to sligthly ignore the statement to at least acknowledge parallel worlds as legitimate.
Personally, I feel like the intent of the author is strong enough to accept those parallel worlds as 2-B. However, that's not for me to decide.
Here are the three possible options:
1: Verse peak at 3-A, nothing else beside layers.
2: Verse peak at 2-B thanks to parallel worlds.
3: Verse is rated at 3-A, with a "possibly 2-B" rating.
6. Why did I remove X?
I'll try to make it simple and quick.
Celestial Foundation Eater : I think it has no reason at all to be on a cosmology page. It offers nothing of value regarding the cosmology.
Higher-Universes : Those are a made-up name for the universes that exist beyond the Sea and such, it has nothing of value either and are just "the space outside of a certain space", meaningless to make a part for them. I preferred to put them under the "Ultimate Ensemble World" scaling for obvious reasons.
The End : Yogiri "true form" is simply a Rule of the Ultimate Ensemble World. If we make a part for him in the blog, then we might as well put the law that makes stuff eternal too.
Summary:
=> Higher-universes are not 1-B anymore and we remove it from the cosmology page
=> Everyone who has a rating into tier 1 get revised (if infinity isn't accepted, then same but with tier 2)
=> Changes into LS for a few characters.
=> Changes in Yogiri's profile/ability.
-----
Votes for Infinity:
Accept it sligthly for parallel worlds: Rikimarox2 (only possibly/option 3), The_golden_and_silver_house94 (same), Shar122 (same), Ovy7 (option 3), MeiouHades (Option 3), Tank1418 (option 3), Theglassman12 (Option 3), Ultimuru (Option 2), Arency (Option 2), Frey_Starlight (Option 3), Ruler_Star_Kuma (Option 3), sukuna171 (Option 3), Lormac_CC (Option 3), ShiroChan56 (Option 3), EldemadeDityjon (Option 2), Secimatar (Option 3), Gewsbumpz_dude (Option 3), Caduz213 (Option 3), PrimeHydra64 (Option 3), Celestial_Pegasus (Option 3), Vietthai96 (Option 3), SatellaTheWoE (Option 3), SonGoku_9377 (Option 3), IDK3465 (Option 3), Qawsedf234 (Option 3), ActuallySpaceMan42 (Option 3)
Don't accept it: ExcelsisBerny (Option 2), Legacy30, Grabbing_dragon (Option 1), Tzimtzumim (Option 1)
No opinion:
-----
Votes for the rest (Yogiri ED etc):
Agree: ExcelsisBerny, Legacy30, Rikimarox2 (Unsure about Yogurt stuff), Ovy7, Grabbing_dragon, Ruler_Star_Kuma (fine with Yogiri's ED), Qawsedf234, ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree:
Neutral: PrimeHydra64, The_golden_and_silver_house94 (neutral on ED),
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