Berserk: Speed Upgrades

[Xaropadob3ta]

That is due to the amount being shot.

Guts wouldn't have a problem with this if he was moving 23% more than the lightning bolts, where they are coming out of Ganishka who is dozens of meters away, which doesn't happen here, Guts, even though he is faster and notices the lightning in the distance, can't move much.

Keep in mind, Daiba also said, "Nothing can harm the Emperor". Yet, Guts proves it not to be true.

The problem here is that Daiba didn't know about the Dragon Slayer, unlike his speed, where he is able to react and mark Guts on some occasions, If he is said to not be able to be faster than lightning, with Guts it would be no different.

Its not a blitz. Serpico was right in front of him that why Guts didn't move, and in the very next page, Guts is shown dodging lightning which further dissproves Daiba's Statement.

Literally Guts saw the attack, warned Serpico, and was unable to move, Guts had already seen Ganishka fire a lightning bolt before, and it was stated that the lightning would hit both of them.

Guts moves ridiculously little compared to lightning, which again doesn't match up with him being 23% faster than one.

There's not much sense in saying that Serpico in front of him prevented him from reacting, Guts with 23% faster than lightning would have time to lift and push Serpico forward without any problem.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Have we considered that maybe there's no Watsonian explanation for why Guts can dodge lightning yet his cannon is still relative to him in speed, and perhaps we should just accept that Miura wanted Guts to become more and more physically capable over the course of the story but didn't give a **** about powerscaling and thus didn't consider the implications of an MHS character having a transonic firearm? To my knowledge, characters with MHS feats that still get menaced by guns and bombs aren't even all that rare.

No. The ***** must continue.

 

[AyOgUyS]

So cannonballs doesn't move at the speed of cannonballs now. wow

"speed of cannonballs"

 

[Zingerpond]

Lots of yap and no scans

What a weird way to say you have no counter argument to what I just said.
I've also already shown scans with the wicker man who's fast enough to not get statued by Guts, but still slow enough to be hit by his canon. Meaning there is not some thousand times difference between these 3 things.
The thread posts scans supporting this, as the whiskers are only capable of avoiding canon fire when they're far away, yet still not so much slower than Guts that he can not just effortlessly no diff them with his supposed thousand times seed advantage over them.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Have we considered that maybe there's no Watsonian explanation for why Guts can dodge lightning yet his cannon is still relative to him in speed, and perhaps we should just accept that Miura wanted Guts to become more and more physically capable over the course of the story but didn't give a **** about powerscaling and thus didn't consider the implications of an MHS character having a transonic firearm? To my knowledge, characters with MHS feats that still get menaced by guns and bombs aren't even all that rare.

That's a really good explanation ngl. Maybe the author simply didn't think abt it and we should accept that because they didn't think abt it, there's no explanation cuz duh they never even thought abt stuff like that in the 1st place.

 

[Zingerpond]

"speed of cannonballs"

Yes, that's what he shoots out. Cannonballs from his arm cannon that uses the same gunpowder a normal ship's cannons uses btw.

Those tends to move at certain speeds.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yes, that's what he shoots out. Cannonballs from his arm cannon that uses the same gunpowder a normal ship's cannons uses btw.

Those tends to move at certain speeds.

Mhs+ cannonball go brrrrrrrr (In all seriousness tho, I do agree with what Sheev said)

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

What a weird way to say you have no counter argument to what I just said.
I've also already shown scans with the wicker man who's fast enough to not get statued by Guts, but still slow enough to be hit by his canon. Meaning there is not some thousand times difference between these 3 things.
The thread posts scans supporting this, as the whiskers are only capable of avoiding canon fire when they're far away, yet still not so much slower than Guts that he can not just effortlessly no diff them with his supposed thousand times seed advantage over them.

I am saying you have no evidence, as such I don't have to respond to your argument.
If we go down this path, I remember Guts saying, "Don't listen to @Zingerpond when it comes to Berserk Scaling. He is a moron."
Still waiting on scan that explicitly says or shows Guts is slower than his cannonball

Yes, that's what he shoots out. Cannonballs from his arm cannon that uses the same gunpowder a normal ship's cannons uses btw.

Those tends to move at certain speeds.

You accidently debunked on your arguments.

So guts just let go of his sword and got on his ass and effectively waster his once per battle move for fun instead of using his supposed thousand times speed advantage to absolutely statue the wicker man?

Turns out it isn't his once per battle move.

 

[AyOgUyS]

If we go down this path, I remember Guts saying, "Don't listen to @Zingerpond when it comes to Berserk Scaling. He is a moron."

Too far man.

 

[Zingerpond]

I am saying you have no evidence, as such I don't have to respond to your argument.

Literally already outlined my evidence, you've just ignored it.

Still waiting on scan that explicitly says or shows Guts is slower than his cannonball

This has to be the like 5th time I've explicitly had to say this. I am not claiming he is slower than his cannonballs. I think it's perfectly fine to scale him some amount higher. I just have an issue with Guts scaling a thousand times faster than his cannonballs and I think Guts is more consistently shown not being hundreds of times faster than his own cannonballs.

Turns out it isn't his once per battle move

Not even remotely close to my actual main argument. And an exception to the rule as he generally speaking doesn't have time to reload mid battle.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Literally already outlined my evidence, you've just ignored it.

You had no scans.

This has to be the like 5th time I've explicitly had to say this. I am not claiming he is slower than his cannonballs. I think it's perfectly fine to scale him some amount higher. I just have an issue with Guts scaling a thousand times faster than his cannonballs and I think Guts is more consistently shown not being hundreds of times faster than his own cannonballs.

Which is just argument from incredulity. It doesn't matter what you like or don't like the evidence proves otherwise.

Not even remotely close to my actual main argument. And an exception to the rule as he generally speaking doesn't have time to reload mid battle.

Never said it was. Just said you debunked one your args.

 

[Zingerpond]

You had no scans.

Scan of Guts failing to statue the wicker man, scan of the wicker man not being fast enough to hit guts before the cannonball hits it and scan of Guts deciding he needs the berserker armor to defeat the things this thread calced at sub sonic. All of them proving Guts is not above mach one thousand

Which is just argument from incredulity. It doesn't matter what you like or don't like the evidence proves otherwise

It has nothing to do with me finding it absurd that a dude would use an attack a thousand times slower than himself. The series itself just proves that it isn't the case by showing that Gut's isn't even close to a thousand times faster than things that are slower than said attack.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

"speed of cannonballs"

I do not control the speed at which cannons ball

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Scan of Guts failing to statue the wicker man, scan of the wicker man not being fast enough to hit guts before the cannonball hits it and scan of Guts deciding he needs the berserker armor to defeat the things this thread calced at sub sonic. All of them proving Guts is not above mach one thousand

Alright, lets go through this again.

Scan of Guts failing to statue the wicker man, scan of the wicker man not being fast enough to hit guts before the cannonball hits it

Okay? How does this matter given Guts is taking this entire fight casually.
He is making jokes about the situation (see the middle panel):

Is so unbothered by the opponent that he turns to Schierke to drop exposition:

And casually side-stepped the first attack:

And since the Wicker Man didn't blitz him, there is no anti-feat here.

scan of Guts deciding he needs the berserker armor to defeat the things this thread calced at sub sonic. All of them proving Guts is not above mach one thousand

Damn, you must really be like your father because you just can't stop lying.

Guts did casually blitz the tentacles

The reason he used the Berserker Armor requires a bit of context - which is provide in the pages you conveniently left out. He realizes that with so many tentacles Casca+The group might get hurt. So, he uses the Berk Armor to save them

 

[SheevShezarrine]

If we go down this path, I remember Guts saying, "Don't listen to @Zingerpond when it comes to Berserk Scaling. He is a moron."

I'm pretty sure ad hom is against site rules my dude

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I'm pretty sure ad hom is against site rules my dude

It ain't ad hom if its true.
He is constantly repeating the same arg which is "he is faster than the cannonball but not that fast because I don't like it" (Arguement from Incredulity). When asked to back up his args with evidence, he deliberatly leaves out context or argues in bad faith.

 

[Zingerpond]

He is making jokes about the situation

Before the wicker man itself shows up which is portrayed as far more powerful than the pumpkin things

Is so unbothered by the opponent that he turns to Schierke to drop exposition

That happens before it started attacking

And since the Wicker Man didn't blitz him, there is no anti-feat here

It manages to be close enough to hitting him that he has to drop his blade.

So, he uses the Berk Armor to save them

He wouldn't have needed the berserker armor in order to save them if he could actually move more than a thousand times faster than the whiskers. But he is clearly not, this is further supported when we actually look at the fight.

(Yes I am aware it looks like he just cuts and shoots the same thing, but if you look at the second page you can see the smoke comes from the whisker that wasn't cut)
Two at the same time almost overwhelm him, by attacking from both sides so he has to shoot one (the whisker is not fast enough to just dodge the cannonball) while cutting the other and his companions show genuine concern for him. This would not have happened if Guts was actually more than a thousand times faster than the whiskers.

 

[Passersby]

, characters with MHS feats that still get menaced by guns and bombs aren't even all that rare.

subsonic one peice goes hard

tho to be fair, you can make the argument that in a lot of these series the weapons are just...enhanced i guess, one peice canon balls are legit tactical nukes if i remember their showings properly although that one statement about 200km/h being really fast isn't doing the verse any favors...


that being said, in situations like this we take the framework that's the most logically consistent with the verse's internal logic that in this wiki is decided via the power system and the feats provided alongside the character's arsenal, and a character who consistently uses quite explicitly transonic attacks isn't really gonna get much benefit of the doubt from people scaling them, and although i admittedly didn't read berserk, it's not my kind of story, i remember this particualr sea god scene from somewhere where bro was being harmed by normal canons, so uhh

i will just keep quiet and follow this thread to see where it goes lol

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

subsonic one peice goes hard

tho to be fair, you can make the argument that in a lot of these series the weapons are just...enhanced i guess, one peice canon balls are legit tactical nukes if i remember their showings properly although that one statement about 200km/h being really fast isn't doing the verse any favors...


that being said, in situations like this we take the framework that's the most logically consistent with the verse's internal logic that in this wiki is decided via the power system and the feats provided alongside the character's arsenal, and a character who consistently uses quite explicitly transonic attacks isn't really gonna get much benefit of the doubt from people scaling them, and although i admittedly didn't read berserk, it's not my kind of story, i remember this particualr sea god scene from somewhere where bro was being harmed by normal canons, so uhh

i will just keep quiet and follow this thread to see where it goes lol

Nah man, subsonic DS because Kokushibo got him by a shotgun /s

 

[Passersby]

Nah man, subsonic DS because Kokushibo got him by a shotgun /s

do you know how many times i got hit with that

i had to make a fking thesis to explain it so many times that i just copy pasted the stuff in a file and kept it there for reuse.
the echolocating gyomei isn't doing us any favor either, tho verse would realistically be capped at 20 m/s or so if we took the echolocation thing seriously lol.

 

[Zingerpond]

do you know how many times i got hit with that

Didn't Koko literally block/dodge it point blank and then later only got hit later on because he just didn't care since he didn't know the bullets had been enhanced?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Snip

Alright, this is getting annoying, you are either an idiot or a troll.
Your args come down to I don't like it or places where the context is heavily edited to fit your narrative. The wicker is nowhere near guts in speed, he is not taking the fight seriously, and no diffs.
If you are going to ask "well why didn't Guts blitz him", maybe Miura just wanted a small cool battle. Furthermore, there is no anti-feat. The Wicker Man didn't even hit him (yes, you keep saying that he hit his sword, but frankly given the angle thats debatable).
Your other argument about the Slugs is just disingenuous. Guts blitzed and the tentacles repeatedly and only chose to use the Berserker armor when the numbers threatened to overwhelm the group (not to mention he again uses a cannon point blank again, so once again you debunk your own argument).

Didn't Koko literally block/dodge it point blank and then later only got hit later on because he just didn't care since he didn't know the bullets had been enhanced?

Well it hit him and thats all that matter right? Also, Kokushibo couldn't break an iron chain so KNY is getting debunked to 9-B.

 

[Passersby]

my hands are so tempted to write counterarguments, you all have no idea, so please switch the subject before i switch topics and derail the thread

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

my hands are so tempted to write counterarguments, you all have no idea, so please switch the subject before i switch topics and derail the thread

Sorry bro 9-B thats the rules /s

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

Kokushibo couldn't break an iron chain so KNY is getting debunked to 9-B.

Guts is being chained up and is unable to escape 9-B for Guts already.

Come on, Griffith gets slapped, let's demote him to below average human for not fighting back.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Guts is being chained up and is unable to escape 9-B for Guts already.

Come on, Griffith gets slapped, let's demote him to below average human for not fighting back.

Peak frr

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Guts is being chained up and is unable to escape 9-B for Guts already.

Come on, Griffith gets slapped, let's demote him to below average human for not fighting back.

10-C Guts couldn't even walk

 

[Zingerpond]

Guts blitzed and the tentacles repeatedly

He was generally speaking faster, but a lot of the reason for why he dealt with them so easily was because the whiskers just didn't have the durability to contend with the dragon slayer. And it is shown that the slugs do almost manage to land in hits like almost biting him here (you can see him struggling and the others show that they're worried) and the scene I've already shown where two attacked him at once. This is not someone who's literally a thousand times faster than the things he's fighting.

Berserker armor when the numbers threatened to overwhelm the group

If he actually was a thousand times faster than the slugs he wouldn't have needed the armor at all. Like I'm more than fine saying Guts is faster than the tentacles, but the series just doesn't support him being more than a thousand times faster.

not to mention he again uses a cannon point blank again, so once again you debunk your own argument

How does him using the cannon at close range debunk my argument. Like I'm genuinely curious.

 

[AyOgUyS]

If he actually was a thousand times faster than the slugs he wouldn't have needed the armor at all. Like I'm more than fine saying Guts is faster than the tentacles, but the series just doesn't support him being more than a thousand times faster.

I think this is just another instance where authors overlook things when writing fights because they usually try to make them more interesting instead of realistic, which can result in inconsistencies.

 

[Zingerpond]

I think this is just another instance where authors overlook things when writing fights because they usually try to make them more interesting instead of realistic, which can result in inconsistencies.

I am aware of that. And I think that’s basically the same reason for why he has lightning timer feats in the first place.

We can’t really do anything about the existence of an inconsistency, all we can do is choose what we deem more consistent. And I think that almost an entire series of (at first) some level of sub sonic to (then later probably some level above) supersonic. Should be weighed more than a single arc with lightning timer feats.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I am aware of that. And I think that’s basically the same reason for why he has lightning timer feats in the first place.

We can’t really do anything about the existence of an inconsistency, all we can do is choose what we deem more consistent. And I think that almost an entire series of (at first) some level of sub sonic to (then later probably some level above) supersonic. Should be weighed more than a single arc with lightning timer feats.

We have multiple feats that show them being faster than lightning. You coping and seething isn't going to change that.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I am aware of that. And I think that’s basically the same reason for why he has lightning timer feats in the first place.

We can’t really do anything about the existence of an inconsistency, all we can do is choose what we deem more consistent. And I think that almost an entire series of (at first) some level of sub sonic to (then later probably some level above) supersonic. Should be weighed more than a single arc with lightning timer feats.

Eh, I disagree. There are multiple valid lightning dodging feats and it's only natural for characters to get far faster as the series progresses.

 

[AyOgUyS]

We have multiple feats that show them being faster than lightning. You coping and seething isn't going to change that.

Hey, don't say "coping and seething". For all we know, he's the calmest person in the universe.

 

[Zingerpond]

We have multiple feats that show them being faster than lightning. You coping and seething isn't going to change that.

Again one arc < entire series when locking at what’s consistent.

 

[Zingerpond]

Eh, I disagree. There are multiple valid lightning dodging feats and it's only natural for characters to get far faster as the series progresses.

Sure it’s natural for characters to progress, my issue with the scaling comes from the fact that the characters seem to immediately regress once said arc was over.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Again one arc < entire series when locking at what’s consistent.

I mean not rly? Like, if there's an arc where the whole point is that dude b gets absurdly stronker and fights stronker enemies, i think its fine to use a city level feat when the rest of the series is mostly city block stuff.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Sure it’s natural for characters to progress, my issue with the scaling comes from the fact that the characters seem to immediately regress once said arc was over.

Or maybe the enemies grew as well to keep up.

 

[Zingerpond]

I mean not rly? Like, if there's an arc where the whole point is that dude b gets absurdly stronker and fights stronker enemies, i think its fine to use a city level feat when the rest of the series is mostly city block stuff.

That’d be the case if it was the last arc or if the followings arcs didn’t have any anti feats for it.

Like in a vacuum I think most of the scaling is fine (not 100% sure due to the way berserk draws lightning, but that’s semantics). My issue comes from the fact the very next arc he’s again closer to what he was previously for no apparent reason.

(There’s also not really any reason for said supposed growth that one arc, but that’s really minor)

To me this is kinda the equivalent of spider man or something getting a few issues where he hangs with Thor or something, before returning to being a “street-tier” in the following issues.

 

[AyOgUyS]

That’d be the case if it was the last arc or if the followings arcs didn’t have any anti feats for it.

Like in a vacuum I think most of the scaling is fine (not 100% sure due to the way berserk draws lightning, but that’s semantics). My issue comes from the fact the very next arc he’s again closer to what he was previously for no apparent reason.

(There’s also not really any reason for said supposed growth that one arc, but that’s really minor)

To me this is kinda the equivalent of spider man or something getting a few issues where he hangs with Thor or something, before returning to being a “street-tier” in the following issues.

comparing berserk to marvel scaling of all things? wow.
jokes aside tho, this is getting into "I'm not knowledgeable enough territory" so I'll let u and the other berserk fans discuss

 

[Zingerpond]

comparing berserk to marvel scaling of all things? wow.
jokes aside tho, this is getting into "I'm not knowledgeable enough territory" so I'll let u and the other berserk fans discuss

I like using hyperboles to get my point across.