Dragon ball(Classic) Speed + Ap upgrade

[TheGodOfICE777]

The difference is that Kaioken is quite specific at being equalized multipliers for both stats. Increasing Ki does increase both attack power and speed, but going from 180 to 260 is a LOT more than what the numbers suggest due to PL's behaving nonlinearly and completely inconsistency; well, it's consistent with scaling chains, but not gaps. But, there are examples where Character A is stronger but Character B is faster due to how their fighting styles work. Increase in Ki does mean increase in both power, defense, and speed, but often times, it can often be a massive jump in power while only being minimal jump in speed. The fact that Ultra Super Saiyan exists kind of shows that multipliers aren't always perfect ones for both.

You’re ignoring the reason Kaioken does this. Goku tells us why in the manga and the guide does too. We’re also told why Grade 3 decreases speed it’s because it sacrifices speed for power.

If people want to use Burter as an example, people in DB have different physical limits, but ki powers you up in accordance to that according to Toriyama.


So yes every increase related to ki is a 1:1 increase or decrease, as shown above with the Tien example.

 

[Omegabronic]

You’re ignoring the reason Kaioken does this. Goku tells us why in the manga and the guide does too. We’re also told why Grade 3 decreases speed it’s because it sacrifices speed for power.

If people want to use Burter as an example, people in DB have different physical limits, but ki powers you up in accordance to that according to Toriyama.


So yes every increase related to ki is a 1:1 increase or decrease, as shown above with the Tien example.

Tien's example is him dividing his own body into 4, so every physical characteristic is logically also divided into 4... that's what is said, if your Ki is what gives you speed, then dividing that by 4 will make you 4x slower, the Tien example doesn't show what you are saying it shows, specially since in the raws Goku apparently mentions Technique also being divided by 4, which... um, doesn't make sense if it only divides Ki(again, get someone to translate that in the translation thread)

also... Burter has similar power level to Jeice, yet he is still faster than him and Recoome

and Dyspo is still said to be the fastest by Toppo, despite Toppo saying Jiren is the strongest of the pride troppers

Yeah Ki does allow you to grow beyond your physical limits... but that's the point, how come people with equal, and even superior Ki, are still slower than others?(The Jiren example shows that even Toppo, someone who is accepted as a Master in Ki manipulation, still somehow sees somehow weaker as faster... which goes against what you are saying)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What exactly is the confusion here?

If a 10 foot Broly has the same amount of Ki as a 5 foot Krillin then Broly is going to be way stronger physically because he's a 10 foot guy using the same level of Ki as the 5 foot guy. This type of logic is even illustrated in how Vegeta and Trunks inflated their muscles with Ki for way more raw power but they screwed over their speed in the process by concentrating too much into strength rather than agility or speed.

Dyspo and Burter having higher speed values is simply because their training and/or physiques built them for speed and not power. Similar argument applies to someone like Captain Ginyu having significantly higher LS than Goku.

Speed is part of the UES like anything else. Splitting your Ki splits your speed. Multiplying your Ki multiplies your speed.

If I'm missing some sort of context here for why people are mysteriously confused then please elucidate it.

 

[MeiouHades]

This is being unnecessarily pedantic IMO. We've given many examples of Ki offering proportional increases in speed as well AND offered examples of specifically when that does NOT happen. The series makes these two things very clear and establishes a clear precedent about what the normal mechanism is, to debate and question that because the "numbers are too high" is just a classic argument out of incredulity when one sees stats that doesn't match their exact headcanon, so yes that is disingenuous.

What's also disingenuous is to expect the series to say "the speed with this power up has increased 2X/3X/5X just like his strength" every time a character powers up even slightly. I'd be more inclined to agree with this line of reasoning if it were applied universally across the wiki for every single verse, but it isn't, and for good reason because it's terrible (and if you do apply it universally, please stop), so there's no reason to argue it here.

So to sum is up, the series goes out of its way to tell us when speed =/= proportional, to assume that this applies universally is also no better in my opinion.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Why are we talking about this exactly? Isn't this already accepted?

 

[Omegabronic]

What exactly is the confusion here?

If a 10 foot Broly has the same amount of Ki as a 5 foot Krillin then Broly is going to be way stronger physically because he's a 10 foot guy using the same level of Ki as the 5 foot guy.

Yeah? This translates to speed how? Burter is bigger and heavier than Jeice... he is still faster

The real problem is the lack of any actual statement proving the "rule" to begin with, one would need that to even start arguing about it

So far, we have a description for a specific technique, and a description of another technique that halves all stats strenghs by 4 via literally dividing yourself by 4

Dyspo and Burter having higher speed values is simply because their training

so training does not always increase speed and strenght the same ammount of times... so how can we prove the times said in the OP are the times it supposedly does?

and/or physiques built them for speed and not power. Similar argument applies to someone like Captain Ginyu having significantly higher LS than Goku.

1 ginyu has literally nothing on his LS description

And

2 Once again, you are saying the stats grow differently depending on the training and natural build of the characters... aka, we can't assume it all grows the same for everyone as it naturally varies on a bunch of factors

Also

3 can you give statements about these suppose "physique and training" advantages? Where are you getting this from?

Speed is part of the UES like anything else.

being a UES doesn't really prove much, the Kamehameha is part of the Ki UES but it is >>>>>>>> the User's physicals, that is not how UES works... hence why you said yourself ways the increase varies between characters

Splitting your Ki splits your speed. Multiplying your Ki multiplies your speed.

PRove this? Tien in that scene split his body, thus spliting all his stats, at least, according to what i can make of the raws... that no one is trying to translate for some reason?

If I'm missing some sort of context here for why people are mysteriously confused then please elucidate it.

MOst of all the lack of clear statements on this mechanic everyone is treating as if it is an accepted rule of the verse, and example that even yourself gave that ignore this "rule"

Why are we talking about this exactly? Isn't this already accepted?

Not as far as i can see? At least, i can't find any thread where this mechanic was accepted as people are arguing for it

This is being unnecessarily pedantic IMO. We've given many examples of Ki offering proportional increases in speed as well

when? Kaioken is specific about the technique... and that's only 1 example, the Tien one needs translation, the spanish one given is very different from the english ome given, so like...

AND offered examples of specifically when that does NOT happen.

Without citing what specifically make those examples any different... you can't have your cake and eat it too

heck, Cryo gave arguments that suggest things contrary to the supposed "rule" in question

The series makes these two things very clear and establishes a clear precedent about what the normal mechanism is

it really doesn't tho? At least, not from what was shown so far imo

, to debate and question that because the "numbers are too high" is just a classic argument out of incredulity when one sees stats that doesn't match their exact headcanon, so yes that is disingenuous.

The argument was never "numbers too high" tho? Could you stop lying about the arguments given? That is what is truly desingenuous

What's also disingenuous is to expect the series to say "the speed with this power up has increased 2X/3X/5X just like his strength" every time a character powers up even slightly. I'd be more inclined to agree with this line of reasoning if it were applied universally across the wiki for every single verse, but it isn't, and for good reason because it's terrible (and if you do apply it universally, please stop), so there's no reason to argue it here.

What aboutism? If you feel other series fall unders the same lack of statements as here... make a thread for them?

I don't expect the series to say that all the time... i expect it to even say it to begin with, which is the affirmation being made here

Also... saying "this is terrible so stop" is not an argument

So to sum is up, the series goes out of its way to tell us when speed =/= proportional

for Burter and Dyspo there's literally nothing saying they are out of the norm

there is also nothing that THERE IS A NORM to begin with, that's the problem

, to assume that this applies universally is also no better in my opinion.

... so you disagree with it applying universally? But... you confuse me

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Not as far as i can see? At least, i can't find any thread where this mechanic was accepted as people are arguing for it

Isn't the whole blog about speed and character speed scaling based on this?

 

[MeiouHades]

when? Kaioken is specific about the technique... and that's only 1 example, the Tien one needs translation, the spanish one given is very different from the english ome given, so like...


Without citing what specifically make those examples any different... you can't have your cake and eat it too

heck, Cryo gave arguments that suggest things contrary to the supposed "rule" in question


it really doesn't tho? At least, not from what was shown so far imo


The argument was never "numbers too high" tho? Could you stop lying about the arguments given? That is what is truly desingenuous


What aboutism? If you feel other series fall unders the same lack of statements as here... make a thread for them?

I don't expect the series to say that all the time... i expect it to even say it to begin with, which is the affirmation being made here

Also... saying "this is terrible so stop" is not an argument


for Burter and Dyspo there's literally nothing saying they are out of the norm

there is also nothing that THERE IS A NORM to begin with, that's the problem


... so you disagree with it applying universally? But... you confuse me

I'll consider replying to you when you've actually read my argument properly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah? This translates to speed how? Burter is bigger and heavier than Jeice... he is still faster

And Burter is an alien mutant lifeform.

The real problem is the lack of any actual statement proving the "rule" to begin with, one would need that to even start arguing about it

Vegeta literally tells Cui that his speed increases with his rising power level. I'm pretty sure you've been shown that exact scan before. And for the love of god don't you try to tell me that power level is mysteriously distinct from Ki. We see power level directly increase with Ki multiplication.

so training does not always increase speed and strenght the same ammount of times... so how can we prove the times said in the OP are the times it supposedly does?

I'm sorry, do you not understand how physical conditioning works? Or different body types?

1 ginyu has literally nothing on his LS description

If you're going off purely VSBW profiles for your info then why are you speaking here like you have any measure of authority or understanding over the source material? Go look it up man.

2 Once again, you are saying the stats grow differently depending on the training and natural build of the characters... aka, we can't assume it all grows the same for everyone as it naturally varies on a bunch of factors

I said different characters have different bodies so their different bodies have different stats even if they have the same amount of Ki. This doesn't suddenly equate to dramatic differences. The stats remain relative.

This isn't some esoteric concept.

3 can you give statements about these suppose "physique and training" advantages? Where are you getting this from?

Real Life. Common Sense.

being a UES doesn't really prove much, the Kamehameha is part of the Ki UES but it is >>>>>>>> the User's physicals, that is not how UES works... hence why you said yourself ways the increase varies between characters

The Kamehameha works by focusing the user's Ki into a single powerful attack and is stated to multiply the user's power level. This is stated very early on in Z.

PRove this? Tien in that scene split his body, thus spliting all his stats, at least, according to what i can make of the raws... that no one is trying to translate for some reason?

What are you asking me to prove? That Ki scales speed? Okay. Explain this to me Omega. How do these characters get faster by training?

MOst of all the lack of clear statements on this mechanic everyone is treating as if it is an accepted rule of the verse, and example that even yourself gave that ignore this "rule"

Who? Dyspo? The guy that has a technique to multiply his speed specifically by thousands of times? Who can push that to an even higher level? Or Burter? The guy that is an alien mutant that Goku blitzed?

---

I can already see where this stonewalling is going and I'm not interested in endlessly flooding this thread with some circular debate. So I won't be addressing you point by point in future posts. I will only address new arguments.

 

[Omegabronic]

Isn't the whole blog about speed and character speed scaling based on this?

I Mean, in the thread that was made iirc the OP already talked about it as if it was an accepted rule... so like... yesn't... i guess? Still can't find the thread that this supposed "rule" was accepted tho... one would need to have that for this and similar proposals to be even valid to begin with

I'll consider replying to you when you've actually read my argument properly.

I did... outside of the lastest last part, but you do you i guess


Anyway, i will get that raw translated, be back... sometime

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I Mean, in the thread that was made iirc the OP already talked about it as if it was an accepted rule... so like... yesn't... i guess? Still can't find the thread that this supposed "rule" was accepted tho... one would need to have that for this and similar proposals to be even valid to begin with

Like, you were the one who made one of the speed blogs, didn't you agree with that?

 

[Omegabronic]

And Burter is an alien mutant lifeform.

Being an Alien doesn't change what i or you said

Also where did you get he is a mutant? And is it said the mutatiom made him naturally faster?

Vegeta literally tells Cui that his speed increases with his rising power level. I'm pretty sure you've been shown that exact scan before.
And for the love of god don't you try to tell me that power level is mysteriously distinct from Ki. We see power level directly increase with Ki multiplication.

Yes... i saw, which proves that getting stronger = getting faster... no one denied that

It, however, doesn't prove that the increase is proportionally the same between the two(Ex: 2x stronger = 2x faster), that is what hasn't been shown or proven, or even accepted afaik, at least no one has shown me a thread where that is accepted

I'm sorry, do you not understand how physical conditioning works? Or different body types?

i do? That's my point? Different types of training makes different types of results... that was your point... what is the problem exactly? It shows that not all training and power growth is universal to all physical aspects

Outside of you needing to prove those aspects in the examples you gave of course, you just affirmed them but didn't proved any

If you're going off purely VSBW profiles for your info then why are you speaking here like you have any measure of authority

i am not? I am just saying there is no scans there, aka, give scans for what you are saying... also warning of an outdated profiles should be a good thing... no?

or understanding over the source material? Go look it up man.

I am asking foe you to show me the scan you are talking about... i don't know where it is and i won't search such a long manga like DB just for this when you are the one who brought it up in the first place

I said different characters have different bodies so their different bodies have different stats

I am waiting for you to give me the statements of this being the reason for the examples you gave

even if they have the same amount of Ki. This doesn't suddenly equate to dramatic differences. The stats remain relative.

give me proof of this last part?

This isn't some esoteric concept.

Agree

Real Life. Common Sense.

Hum... i am pretty sure Burter and Dyspo are not real species

What i mean is, i asked you to give proof of this physical advantage for these characters as the explanation they are faster than stronger characters... you arw affirming this is the reason, but you didn't proved this advantage in universe in comparison to the other characters

The Kamehameha works by focusing the user's Ki into a single powerful attack and is stated to multiply the user's power level. This is stated very early on in Z.

Yet it is still far above the user's own physical power, and characters relative to them can still react to it despite the supposed rule of speed increasing just as much

What are you asking me to prove? That Ki scales speed? Okay. Explain this to me Omega. How do these characters get faster by training?

No? That increasing 1 stat increases all other proportionally the same?

Who? Dyspo? The guy that has a technique to multiply his speed specifically by thousands of times?

Prove this multiplier?

Who can push that to an even higher level?

And that wasn't being used when Toppo made the statement

Or Burter? The guy that is an alien mutant that Goku blitzed?

Again prove the mutant part?

Also why does Goku blitzing him matter for the comparison i made for Jeice and R

---

I can already see where this stonewalling is going and I'm not interested in endlessly flooding this thread with some circular debate. So I won't be addressing you point by point in future posts. I will only address new arguments.

Ok?

The main problem is the supposed "rule" itself being proven... the other examples are more support for it not being a thing, which like... yeah? If it isn't said, it isn't a thing

 

[Omegabronic]

Like, you were the one who made one of the speed blogs, didn't you agree with that?

The speed blogs for DBS? These ones i was purely updating with the new calc for the BoGs feat, i didn't add anything of the supposed "rule"

I thought you were talking about the DBZ ones

 

[Gp972]

The speed blogs for DBS? These ones i was purely updating with the new calc for the BoGs feat, i didn't add anything of the supposed "rule"

I thought you were talking about the DBZ ones

It's not a rule, it's a note

#Note 2: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics – statistics such as strength and overall power, speed, aerial capabilities, destructive capacity, and defense.

 

[Omegabronic]

It's not a rule, it's a note

#Note 2: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics – statistics such as strength and overall power, speed, aerial capabilities, destructive capacity, and defense.

This note doesn't say all stats grow proportionally the same ammount... only that they grow when another grows... that's the point here

The "rule" being taken as official here is mentioned nowhere on the verse page, and nowhere can i find a thread where it was accepted

 

[TiltedFN]

Being an Alien doesn't change what i or you said

Also where did you get he is a mutant? And is it said the mutatiom made him naturally faster?

Maybe read the series please.

Yes... i saw, which proves that getting stronger = getting faster... no one denied that

It, however, doesn't prove that the increase is proportionally the same between the two(Ex: 2x stronger = 2x faster), that is what hasn't been shown or proven, or even accepted afaik, at least no one has shown me a thread where that is accepted

Omega, I'm not sure why you are being disingenuous right now, but that is ALWAYS how it works. Your ki going up makes every single stat you have greater. The kaioken is literally just a stat booster lmao. It's meant to make you stronger for short periods of time when your ki hasn't naturally risen to those levels yet, which is why training is needed. These scans right here should end this argument completely.

 

[Robo432343]

This note doesn't say all stats grow proportionally the same ammount... only that they grow when another grows... that's the point here

The "rule" being taken as official here is mentioned nowhere on the verse page, and nowhere can i find a thread where it was accepted

this is grasping at straws

 

[CryoTheMayo]

snip

For the Dyspo part literally just google it or look at the very wiki you are posting on.

As for the rest of your statements you aren't really saying anything new or valid. So I am going to ask for you to make a single post defining what exactly you're even trying to argue. Clearly state what it is you are trying to propose.

 

[Omegabronic]

Maybe read the series please.

I did... doesn't mean i remember every detail of it

Still doesn't prove the mutation specifically made him faster like it was prevously implief in this thread, the mutations seems to be implied to only raise Power Levels, not indvidual stats, at least... not as far as that statement goes

Omega, I'm not sure why you are being disingenuous right now

drop the acusations please? Second time this thread... that doesn't help

, but that is ALWAYS how it works. Your ki going up makes every single stat you have greater.
The kaioken is literally just a stat booster lmao. It's meant to make you stronger for short periods of time when your ki hasn't naturally risen to those levels yet, which is why training is needed. These scans right here should end this argument completely.

Yeah... as i said, no one is denying that getting stronger = getting faster

What needs to be proven is that it is proportionally the same boost for all stats

THe only thing there that even implies it is the Kaioken scan... which obviously can't be applied to everyone universally as that scan is explaining the mechanics of Kaioken, a specific technique made for this, not Ki overall

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah... as i said, no one is denying that getting stronger = getting faster

What needs to be proven is that it is proportionally the same boost for all stats

THe only thing there that even implies it is the Kaioken scan... which obviously can't be applied to everyone universally as that scan is explaining the mechanics of Kaioken, a specific technique made for this, not Ki overall

See this is what I'm talking about. You don't even pretend to know what you're talking about. I need you to answer two questions for me, as honestly as you can.

1. What is the kaioken?

2. What causes this technique to work how it does?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Maybe read the series please.

Omega, I'm not sure why you are being disingenuous right now, but that is ALWAYS how it works. Your ki going up makes every single stat you have greater. The kaioken is literally just a stat booster lmao. It's meant to make you stronger for short periods of time when your ki hasn't naturally risen to those levels yet, which is why training is needed. These scans right here should end this argument completely.

“A technique whereby controlling all of the ki throughout the body, one can momentarily amplify it. However, the toll on the body is also large. Goku acquired it during his training with Kaio. His power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force, all become twice the usual.

The literal thing Kaioken does is amplify his ki it’s what Goku tells us. That’s why it does what it does. I don’t know why we’re arguing otherwise.

Edit: Also, if we’re arguing Kaioken isn’t just amplification of the ki and it’s something more unique please make your own thread for that. We currently do not accept this and the opposite is reflected on our page.

 

[Gp972]

Tien's example is him dividing his own body into 4, so every physical characteristic is logically also divided into 4... that's what is said, if your Ki is what gives you speed, then dividing that by 4 will make you 4x slower, the Tien example doesn't show what you are saying it shows, specially since in the raws Goku apparently mentions Technique also being divided by 4, which... um, doesn't make sense if it only divides Ki(again, get someone to translate that in the translation thread)

I was able to translate it

"That wasn’t like you… You messed up, Tien.
Splitting into four was a pretty cool strategy, but... Since you divided your power into four,
your attack, defense, and speed all dropped to a fourth of what they were."

And i have spanish Anime subtitles

"This mistake it's not typical of you tenshinhan"

"Becoming four of yourself is an amazing technique."

"But by dividing yourself into four you also divide your attack, your defense and your speed by four, It wasn't a good idea."

 

[Omegabronic]

For the Dyspo part literally just google it or look at the very wiki you are posting on.

I asked for a scan showing the statement. The DB wiki doesn't have said scan... if you show me that, i concede on this point

Altho... weird that the speed multiplier is not included in the scalling on the wiki... where was it accepted?

As for the rest of your statements you aren't really saying anything new or valid.

What makes you say they aren't valid?

So I am going to ask for you to make a single post defining what exactly you're even trying to argue. Clearly state what it is you are trying to propose.

PRetty sure i already did that a few messages ago


Wait... if the argument is that multiplying your Ki multiplies all stats equally... then why are we discussing it when the scans in the OP only mention strenght... not Ki

 

[TiltedFN]

“A technique whereby controlling all of the ki throughout the body, one can momentarily amplify it. However, the toll on the body is also large. Goku acquired it during his training with Kaio. His power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force, all become twice the usual.

The literal thing Kaioken does is amplify his ki it’s what Goku tells us. That’s why it does what it does. I don’t know why we’re arguing otherwise.

Tell that to omega.

 

[Omegabronic]

“A technique whereby controlling all of the ki throughout the body, one can momentarily amplify it. However, the toll on the body is also large. Goku acquired it during his training with Kaio. His power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force, all become twice the usual.

The literal thing Kaioken does is amplify his ki it’s what Goku tells us. That’s why it does what it does. I don’t know why we’re arguing otherwise.

Edit: Also, if we’re arguing Kaioken isn’t just amplification of the ki and it’s something more unique please make your own thread for that. We currently do not accept this and the opposite is reflected on our page.

Yes, it controls amd amplifies his Ki in way that multiplies all stats

I was able to translate it

"That wasn’t like you… You messed up, Tien.
Splitting into four was a pretty cool strategy, but... Since you divided your power into four,
your attack, defense, and speed all dropped to a fourth of what they were."

And i have spanish Anime subtitles

"This mistake it's not typical of you tenshinhan"

"Becoming four of yourself is an amazing technique."

"But by dividing yourself into four you also divide your attack, your defense and your speed by four, It wasn't a good idea."

You know japanese? Or you used a machine translation?

Also Tilted and Cryo... can you both chill with the tone? I don't see how this helps the conversation

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Sure ig

 

[TiltedFN]

Also Tilted and Cryo... can you both chill with the tone? I don't see how this helps the conversation

Stop stonewalling and answer my questions.

 

[Gp972]

Yes, it controls amd amplifies his Ki in way that multiplies all stats


You know japanese? Or you used a machine translation?

A Machine translation, also the spanish subtitles fit with the translation

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Still doesn't prove the mutation specifically made him faster like it was prevously implief in this thread, the mutations seems to be implied to only raise Power Levels, not indvidual stats, at least... not as far as that statement goes

Omega. The mutation stuff pertains to their individual specialities and abilities. Like being able to swap bodies, or stop time, or being abnormally fast.

When Ginyu is considering the idea that Goku may be a mutant it is in response to him beating up the Ginyu Force, which consists of mutants. And the fact that Goku is extremely abnormal compared to a typical saiyan.

Freeza is also a mutant. Part of that is his abnormal power but it's also pertaining to his advanced psychokinetic abilities, or his ability to survive absurd conditions, or his ability to learn at an exponential rate. Or even his ability to transform.

Whis also states that Super Saiyan is a result of Goku mutating. Goku himself is considered a mutant by Whis because of his abnormal ability to transform.

In short, mutation in the context of Dragon Ball refers to abnormal power, abnormal abilities, abnormal conditions.

Burter is so fast because he is a mutant. He is not normal.

Also Tilted and Cryo... can you both chill with the tone? I don't see how this helps the conversation

Omega. You have repeatedly expressed ideas that indicate you don't read the manga. Or watch the anime. Or even look at the verse pages. And yet you are repeatedly making arguments against this CRT. Bogging down the thread with ignorant posts.

I am simply calling out your own behavior and how you, frankly, are not able to contribute to this discussion in a meaningful manner.

 

[Omegabronic]

Stop stonewalling and answer my questions.

How is me asking for you two to stop the aggressive tone and accusations me stonewalling? explain that to me, as for you question... pretty sure my answer to Ice already answers it

regardless, how about you equally answer my question:

Wait... if the argument is that multiplying your Ki multiplies all stats equally... then why are we discussing it when the scans in the OP only mention strenght... not Ki?

A Machine translation, also the spanish subtitles fit with the translation

Actually the spanish subtitle doesn't mention the strength being the reason the stats got divided... i already requested a translation, so all we need to do is wait for that

 

[TiltedFN]

How is me asking for you two to stop the aggressive tone and accusations me stonewalling? explain that to me, as for you question... pretty sure my answer to Ice already answers it

regardless, how about you equally answer my question:

I'm going to ask again. Can you please answer my two questions to you? And stop it, it says power.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I asked for a scan showing the statement. The DB wiki doesn't have said scan... if you show me that, i concede on this point

Altho... weird that the speed multiplier is not included in the scalling on the wiki... where was it accepted?

Here is the statement. The source is Episode 104 of Dragon Ball Super. When Dyspo fights Hit.

What makes you say they aren't valid?

The Dyspo question is a good hint.

 

[Gp972]

Wait... if the argument is that multiplying your Ki multiplies all stats equally... then why are we discussing it when the scans in the OP only mention strenght... not Ki

They use ki and strength as interchangeable terms

For example in DBZ Kakarot is said that SSJ makes you 50 times stronger

And we now SSJ also increases speed because

"SSJ is consistent with the showings in the manga as a 50x speed multiplier specifically. Goku using Kaioken x10 was being outpaced by 50% Frieza, and even Kaioken x20 while using a Kamehameha was at best equal to 50% Frieza's speed, yet using SSJ allowed Goku to speed blitz 50% Frieza, and even have an edge in speed over 100% Frieza. Therefore, it is highly consistent with the 50x multiplier assigned to it"

 

[MeiouHades]

Can this stop already? We already accept, for the most part, that increases in strength also offer a proportional increase in speed as well. ALL of our speed blogs are based on this very idea, so if this something you disagree with now, then change it with another thread, this isn't the place for it. We already accepted transformations like SSJ to give proportional speed increases as well as other power ups unless stated otherwise. So yes, it is stonewalling a thread when its simply purpose is to merely apply what we already largely accept and yes it is splitting hairs.

 

[Gp972]

Can this stop already? We already accept, for the most part, that increases in strength also offer a proportional increase in speed as well. ALL of our speed blogs are based on this very idea, so if this something you disagree with now, then change it with another thread, this isn't the place for it. We already accepted transformations like SSJ to give proportional speed increases as well as other power ups unless stated otherwise. So yes, it is stonewalling a thread when its simply purpose is to merely apply what we already largely accept and yes it is splitting hairs.

Okey at least for me i will stop, so then i need 3 staff votes if i want this to be accepted

I should Leave a message on the profile of 3 staffs or i should just wait for them to come?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okey at least for me i will stop, so then i need 3 staff votes if i want this to be accepted

I should Leave a message on the profile of 3 staffs or i should just wait for them to come?

Generally it is fine to give staff time to respond but if it takes a while you can try requesting some to take a look.

I understand you are a new user so knowing which staff tend to be reasonable and active might be unknown to you. A good start would be DarkDragonMedeus who is typically active and has pretty balanced takes.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega. The mutation stuff pertains to their individual specialities and abilities. Like being able to swap bodies, or stop time, or being abnormally fast.

... where did you get from? i am asking you specifically about this part, you showed no scans for the mutations in question being the reason for these specific stats discrepancies, just show me the scan and i will concede on this

When Ginyu is considering the idea that Goku may be a mutant it is in response to him beating up the Ginyu Force, which consists of mutants. And the fact that Goku is extremely abnormal compared to a typical saiyan.

Which was purely because of his abnormal power level compared to normal saiyans, which is also what he implies is why the Ginyu Force had such big power levels

Freeza is also a mutant. Part of that is his abnormal power but it's also pertaining to his advanced psychokinetic abilities, or his ability to survive absurd conditions, or his ability to learn at an exponential rate. Or even his ability to transform.

Yeah... iirc Freeza has straight statements talking about these conditions being part of his mutation, yes

Whis also states that Super Saiyan is a result of Goku mutating. Goku himself is considered a mutant by Whis because of his abnormal ability to transform.

Which is purely influenced by his power level/battle power

In short, mutation in the context of Dragon Ball refers to abnormal power, abnormal abilities, abnormal conditions.

and most of the time, abnormal power level/battle power... that i agree with

Burter is so fast because he is a mutant. He is not normal.

You have to prove that the mutation is the super speed and not what Ginyu says it was during the statement... that being the large power level

Omega. You have repeatedly expressed ideas that indicate you don't read the manga. Or watch the anime.

I did both, thank you very much, just don't reme

Or even look at the verse pages.

I did... just didn't looked at Dyspo's specifically since i don't care about that character

And yet you are repeatedly making arguments against this CRT. Bogging down the thread with ignorant posts.

That i conceded once you showed evidence for the said points, yes

don't see how that invalidates the logic of the point i made tho, the ones disproven i conceded

I am simply calling out your own behavior and how you, frankly, are not able to contribute to this discussion in a meaningful manner.

Using my supposed "lack of reading/seeing the series"(which again, i did read/watched all of it) to say all my points are invalid and un-meaningful is Poising the well, aka a fallacy, you are not tackling my arguments, nor does this have anything to do with the arguments i presented

 

[Omegabronic]

Japanese

@Executor_N0 translated this for me

"ひとりの力を4人に分けたから攻撃も守りもスピードもぜんぶ4分の1の力になっちゃったもんなBecause a single person's power was divided into 4 people, that power became just 1/4 in everything, including attack, defense, and also speed.

ひとりの力を4人に分けたから explains that it's because the power of a single person (ひとりの力) was divided into 4 people (4人に分けたから), everything else happened, which is the power becoming 1/4 in everything (ぜんぶ4分の1の力になっちゃった), and it specifies attack, defense, and speed (攻撃も守りもスピード)"

The original japanese differentiates "power" and "strength" here, aka, it is saying that every stat's "power" got divided by 4, aka... what i said earlier, that he divided all his strenghts into 1/4th of his original self

If anyone wants to know @Executor_N0 opinion on the matter, i also questioned him about the meaning of "power" here, this was his answer:
"Things can be a bit odd because the structure order in Japanese is different from English. But it's basically "Attack, and also defense, and also speed, and also everything was divided as 1/4 of the power"

This is being like, very literal as "も" is used here to say "it's this and also this" and it happens 4 times (Attack, defense, speed, everything)But it doesn't need to be very literal, it's just saying that since he divided into 4 people, each people only has 1/4 of the power of the original in everything"

 

[CryoTheMayo]

snip

I'm not interested in debating with you any further. Particularly given much of what you have contested is accepted on VSBW and this CRT is not related to changing that.

If you have questions regarding the verse please redirect them to the Dragon Ball General.

 

[MeiouHades]

... where did you get from? i am asking you specifically about this part, you showed no scans for the mutations in question being the reason for these specific stats discrepancies, just show me the scan and i will concede on this


Which was purely because of his abnormal power level compared to normal saiyans, which is also what he implies is why the Ginyu Force had such big power levels


Yeah... iirc Freeza has straight statements talking about these conditions being part of his mutation, yes


Which is purely influenced by his power level/battle power


and most of the time, abnormal power level/battle power... that i agree with


You have to prove that the mutation is the super speed and not what Ginyu says it was during the statement... that being the large power level


I did both, thank you very much, just don't reme


I did... just didn't looked at Dyspo's specifically since i don't care about that character


That i conceded once you showed evidence for the said points, yes

don't see how that invalidates the logic of the point i made tho, the ones disproven i conceded

Using my supposed "lack of reading/seeing the series"(which again, i did read/watched all of it) to say all my points are invalid and un-meaningful is Poising the well, aka a fallacy, you are not tackling my arguments, nor does this have anything to do with the arguments i presented

I'll say this straight up since you seem to be missing this concept. Omega, no one owes you a response, not me, not Cryo, not Tilted, no one. So, to act surprised when no one wants to entertain your wall of text is pointless when your "response" is, put simply, not even worth responding to. Why WOULD anyone do the emotional labor of responding to someone who evidently isn't reading half of the stuff being written for them? That's why I said earlier, I'm not interested in responding to you because I know for a fact that you don't read anything. Call it an accusation all you want, it is a pattern I and almost everyone who has debated you has observed both on- and off-site. I don't care if you think I'm accusing you. Stop this behavior if you don't like being accused then. I will not be reading or responding to your response to this, so don't bother unless you just want to get the last word in for some reason.