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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Yes, but the character's whole fundamental concept of taking pleasure in systematic murder as some kind of performance art doesn't sit at all right with me. The karmic scales have to be balanced and evil has to be stopped from wreaking further pain and suffering on innocents. Beyond that things easily turn extremely morbid in my view. 🙏
Dude Deadpool literally suffers permanent, constantly shifting agony from the bone deep super cancer across his entire body that he has to live with every day. His being is a giant mass of painful tumors. They hurt so bad that almost nothing else compares, to the point that he calls being sliced and disemboweled ticklish. He longs for death, but because of his healing factor, he can never get it. He has to suffer for centuries and potentially even longer, watching as his friends and family slowly grow old and die, while he never ever crosses over to be with them in peace.

Idk man, if there was a karmic balance for all the bad things he’s committed, that’d be a pretty good one.
 
Dude Deadpool literally suffers permanent, constantly shifting agony from the bone deep super cancer across his entire body that he has to live with every day. His being is a giant mass of painful tumors. They hurt so bad that almost nothing else compares, to the point that he calls being sliced and disemboweled ticklish. He longs for death, but because of his healing factor, he can never get it. He has to suffer for centuries and potentially even longer, watching as his friends and family slowly grow old and die, while he never ever crosses over to be with them in peace.

Idk man, if there was a karmic balance for all the bad things he’s committed, that’d be a pretty good one.
That is a good point, but he also never seems to truly reform and get better regarding his "casual murder and mutilation as performance art" aspect, so he is still an absolutely terrible character to set up as something for audiences to identify with.

And darkness, pain, trauma, and suffering are also not exactly the kind of qualities that will inspire humanity towards constructive and positive mental, emotional, spiritual, cultural, and social progress.

I essentially think that he is a fundamentally horribly bad and immature idea to have unleashed upon the world. 🙏
 
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I wouldn't say he's GOOD good (this is the same guy who destroyed an entire reality just because his counterpart there was friends with Reed), but he definitely has his moments of goodness, his relationship with Valerie is proof enough of that.
I don't necessarily mean that he is good, more in the sense that he has the potencial to be a good guy were his circumstances to be different. Maybe Marvel is going to throw that in this new arc considering how he is being portrayed as "good", he is still gonna be defeated but maybe something good stays in him.
 
I think it's definitely possible for a bad person to do good things, and we don't need to claim they're good to recognize that.

Deadpool strikes me as that. He's morally corrupt in obvious ways, but there is definitely a lot of situations where the world would be a worse place if he didn't exist/intervene.
 
Yes. Agreed. I just think that he is an inherently destructive concept, for the various reasons that I mentioned above. 🙏
 
Yes. Agreed. I just think that he is an inherently destructive concept, for the various reasons that I mentioned above. 🙏
For children, maybe.

To be fair, it's made clear he hates his life and is only using humor as a way to cope, so I don't think they're objectively setting him up as a role model or anything. If anything, it's implied that if you act like Deadpool you'll end up in constant pain, suicidal, lonely, and hated by everyone around you.
 
That is a good point, but he also never seems to truly reform and get better regarding his "casual murder and mutilation as performance art" aspect, so he is still an absolutely terrible character to set up as something for audiences to identify with.
I mean….why? Characters like that are interesting because of how they make you feel.

Take Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda for example. It’s implied that he went on a rampage and destroyed a village in a fit of rage and anger, and tried to murder several people additionally in order to gain the dragon scroll. Does that mean he isn’t a good character or that people can’t relate to him? HELL NO.

He was built up and groomed to be the ultimate dragon warrior, promised things that ultimately shouldn’t have been promised, and when his life’s work and hard effort came crashing down, he crashed with it. Obviously no one is going to become a mass murderer or something like him, but that doesn’t mean you can’t relate to his struggle and hardship. You can relate to things without them being 1 to 1 in your life. Characters are far more than just actions or what they believe on papers
And darkness, pain, trauma, and suffering are also not exactly the kind of qualities that will inspire humanity towards constructive and positive mental, emotional, spiritual, cultural, and social progress.
Clearly someone hasn’t seen Gurren Lagann-

I’m….not really sure how to respond to that, since almost all innovations and progress in human history stem from suffering, which is what inspires those changes in the first place.

Like, the suffering is the thing that inspires and motivates us to grow and develop, in order to prevent it.
I essentially think that he is a fundamentally horribly bad and immature idea to have unleashed upon the world. 🙏
Ant, I’m not really going to touch on this one since it seems to be a more personal belief, but if I could, I’d like to ask: what does constitute as a worthwhile story? Like, what you’d consider “peak fiction”. I’m kind of wanting to recommend some things for you to read/watch, but I want to know your tastes first. And yes, this is semi-relevant to the discussion at hand.
 
I mean….why? Characters like that are interesting because of how they make you feel.

Take Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda for example. It’s implied that he went on a rampage and destroyed a village in a fit of rage and anger, and tried to murder several people additionally in order to gain the dragon scroll. Does that mean he isn’t a good character or that people can’t relate to him? HELL NO.

He was built up and groomed to be the ultimate dragon warrior, promised things that ultimately shouldn’t have been promised, and when his life’s work and hard effort came crashing down, he crashed with it. Obviously no one is going to become a mass murderer or something like him, but that doesn’t mean you can’t relate to his struggle and hardship. You can relate to things without them being 1 to 1 in your life. Characters are far more than just actions or what they believe on papers
Tai Lung is handled as a villain, not marketed as a "thrill-killing is cool performance art" false "hero" and a source of destructive self-patterning/self-identification memetic conceptual cancer for millions of audience members.
Clearly someone hasn’t seen Gurren Lagann-

I’m….not really sure how to respond to that, since almost all innovations and progress in human history stem from suffering, which is what inspires those changes in the first place.
No they do not. True human progress stems from extreme effort, yes, but mainly from good intentions, not self-destructive and otherwise destructive darkness, cruelty, war, and misery. Those are terrible ideals to set up for the public at large to identify with and aspire towards.
Like, the suffering is the thing that inspires and motivates us to grow and develop, in order to prevent it.
Productive challenges inspire and motivate us, but that is not the intended focus of our discussion here.
Ant, I’m not really going to touch on this one since it seems to be a more personal belief, but if I could, I’d like to ask: what does constitute as a worthwhile story? Like, what you’d consider “peak fiction”. I’m kind of wanting to recommend some things for you to read/watch, but I want to know your tastes first. And yes, this is semi-relevant to the discussion at hand.
Life-affirming, positive, and highly imaginative, creative, well-written, and genuinely wise and insightful stories that celebrate and inspire people at large to embrace light, love, freedom, compassion, idealism, kindness, joy, hope, solidarity, and genuine ethics, rather than darkness, hatred, oppression, desensitization, true cynicism, cruelty, depression, despair, selfishness, and amorality.

So I definitely do not think that the "creative" output from most western and Japanese comicbooks, games, or other types of media writers has any inherent value whatsoever. It just causes almost unfathomably enormous mental, emotional, and spiritual harm to humanity as a whole, by systematically overwriting and violating our original personalities that are much more open to joy and kindness in the manner of innocent children, and thereby "inspires" us to engage in our worst qualities towards ourselves, each other, and our environment. 🙏

Please see here for further information:

 
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Time slow, but Bucky said that it would wear off on its own, so I do not know if a resistance is the case here. 🙏
 
The man who created the Beyonder and Valiant Comics. Rest in peace.
Shooter was a huge positive influence on much of the silver age of DC and also wrote one of my favorite characters, The Beyonder. He will be sorely missed.

RIP to the legend.
 
The man who created the Beyonder and Valiant Comics. Rest in peace.
RIP. Got too much hate for some mistakes he made decades ago. People forgot a lot of the good. He wrote Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes at 14 years old as a freelancer and wrote some of the best stories for the Silver Age (he read Marvel comics as a kid, so wrote them like Lee-Kirby stories). Made a huge huge impact on the industry.
 
RIP. Got too much hate for some mistakes he made decades ago. People forgot a lot of the good. He wrote Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes at 14 years old as a freelancer and wrote some of the best stories for the Silver Age (he read Marvel comics as a kid, so wrote them like Lee-Kirby stories). Made a huge huge impact on the industry.
Yes. Agreed. Rest In Peace. 🙏❤️🕊

Shooter did some bad decisions, especially by having Carol Danvers marry her own rapist, who was also her son in a very strange and offensive story, and then possibly creating Titania as a take-that against his feminist critics, but overall he was a very positive influence on lots of good comicbook runs, such as Simonson's Thor (Yes, from what I recall, he made an "I think that Apocalypse is right regarding survival of the fittest" statement long ago, which is obviously extremely opposed to my own views), Byrne's (Yes, I know that he is extremely grouchy and unlikeable IRL, and made an apparently genocidal statement towards Muslims after the 9/11 attack) Fantastic Four, Miller's Daredevil (He wasn't a far right Islamophobe back then, as we can see with his creation of Nuke as a jingoistic propaganda satire), Stern's Spider-Man, and possibly even Claremont's X-Men.

Anyway, I think that with the exception of Al Ewing's Defenders runs, the Beyonder has been treated with extreme disservice after Jim Shooter left Marvel Comics, and that Jim may have headed the company during its most memorably and positively creative era.

Should I create a news and announcements memorial thread? 🙏
 
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Should I create a news and announcements memorial thread, and if so what should it say? 🙏
Yeah, I think he deserved it after all he’s put into the comics industry in his tenure. As far as what to say, probably go over some of his achievements with both DC and Marvel, and describe his positive influence with comics as a whole throughout the decades.

Though, I’d shy away from mentioning any of his sometimes less than stellar writing choices or political beliefs; sort of sullies the message of celebrating his life and work.
 
I have handled it. 🙏

 
Yes. I am beginning to really not like Loki's modern incarnation any more than I liked their old incarnation, given their extreme tendency to treat other people like toys with their plot manipulation and shapeshifting, and to visit absolutely horrible fates upon them in Tyr's case, and for personal benefit in Donald Blake's and Thor's cases, even though Donald Blake was Donny Cates' horrible Thor characterisation's fault.

I also do not like that Ewing seems to have embraced the extreme double-standards for Thor and other characters that most Marvel writers seem to hold more tribalist identification with. When written right, Thor is one of the most genuinely virtuous Marvel Comics characters, but here he is written off as arrogant and in need of being killed and reborn as a mortal in order to learn yet another lesson in humility.

Okay, but when is that standard of karmic repentance going to be applied to the 99% of all the current Marvel Comics characters who have far greater moral problems than DeFalco's or Ewing's version of Thor has been portrayed with. Mystique was recently rationalised as being perfectly cuddly and acceptable in a story collection that Ewing participated with, and with his explicit blessing, despite that she has attempted or succcessfully performed plenty of hardcore Nazi level evil atrocities over the years and is an unrepentant thrill-killing sadistic supremacist and serial rapist. Heck, Ewing even wrote Storm as far more arrogant and overpowered than the way he handled Thor with the Odinforce, but that was perfectly manageable and acceptable then?

And despite that I generally like Ewing's writing quality and characterisations, he also has a bad continuous habit of breaking the narrative/story setting by completely overpowering plenty of characters who are not deemed to automatically be part of a problematic "group", like Thor apparently is.

So, I probably agree with 99% of the values as such of this part of my fellow leftists, but not with a part of the applications. I strongly believe in equality for everybody, but equality means equal rights for everybody, which also means equal moral responsibilities for everybody, not one far more severe set of rules for one group, and enormously less strict rules for another, and certain artificial divisions of humanity as a whole being granted enormously greater power than all of the others, as that comes across as reverse-supremacism and a form of hatred in itself.

If we are going to learn to all get along on this planet, all of the ego-tripping tribalist artificial "group" versus "group" divisions need to end, especially in terms of jingoistic ultranationalistic xenophobic supremacism, but the "I'm the bestest supremiest best supreme being that ever bestest, and no moral rules or standards apply to me" narrative tendency is also not a wise choice at all, with the Krakoa storyline perhaps being the worst amoral excess displayed yet, and is only helping to drive lots of easily brainwashed people who are not part of favoured groups for the writers into becoming supporters of far right extremist complete monsters instead of getting convinced that equality and love for all is the best available option.

And the whole narrative concept that all the people with powers systematically get away without any bad consequences no matter how extreme atrocities they perform, in comparison to all the regular people who almost all end up tortured forever after they die, regardless that it is completely disproportionate retribution, and not based on rehabilitation and making up for their sins with good deeds, in the slightest for those who can be reformed and redeemed, also sends a horribly supremacist message to me, as does the concept that the people with powers are somehow oppressed by the people without any, while they keep emphasising how superior they are to everybody else, and perform absolutely horrible transgressions without any bad consequences, which is the X-Men concept in a nutshell, and completely opposed to how oppression in the real world usually works.

Sigh. Oh well. I seem to have gone off track again. In summary, I just really don't like any form of tribalism, supremacism, or extreme moral double-standards and ego-tripping. One love and equality for all in the true sense of the world. That is all.

And Thor learning more about the struggles of regular people might turn him into an even better character in the long run for all that I know.

🙏❤️🕊
 
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Well, I have patterned and gradually turned annoyed by these issues over a long time now. 🙏
 
I really liked Immortal Thor earlier, especially Thor's heroic speech against Utgard-Loki's magically conjured embodiment of Thor's death in the form of Thanos, but now it has turned into Loki using Thor as a blood-sacrifice to keep their power over narrative. It feels more like a "Loki gets away with being a completely overpowered asshole and horribly abusing other people" comicbook than a Thor comicbook at this point. However, we will see what happens. Maybe it will get better again. Also, in the meantime, Amora will likely kill her sort-of-son Magni in order to gain control over the Odinforce.

Venom is not really my cup of tea. I am neutral towards Ewing's current run. 🙏
 
Yes. I am beginning to really not like Loki's modern incarnation any more than I liked their old incarnation, given their extreme tendency to treat other people like toys with their plot manipulation and shapeshifting, and to visit absolutely horrible fates upon them in Tyr's case, and for personal benefit in Donald Blake's and Thor's cases, even though Donald Blake was Donny Cates' horrible Thor characterisation's fault.

I also do not like that Ewing seems to have embraced the extreme double-standards for Thor and other characters that most Marvel writers seem to hold more tribalist identification with. When written right, Thor is one of the most genuinely virtuous Marvel Comics characters, but here he is written off as arrogant and in need of being killed and reborn as a mortal in order to learn yet another lesson in humility.

Okay, but when is that standard of karmic repentance going to be applied to the 99% of all the current Marvel Comics characters who have far greater moral problems than DeFalco's or Ewing's version of Thor has been portrayed with. Mystique was recently rationalised as being perfectly cuddly and acceptable in a story collection that Ewing participated with, and with his explicit blessing, despite that she has attempted or succcessfully performed plenty of hardcore Nazi level evil atrocities over the years and is an unrepentant thrill-killing sadistic supremacist and serial rapist. Heck, Ewing even wrote Storm as far more arrogant and overpowered than the way he handled Thor with the Odinforce, but that was perfectly manageable and acceptable then?

And despite that I generally like Ewing's writing quality and characterisations, he also has a bad continuous habit of breaking the narrative/story setting by completely overpowering plenty of characters who are not deemed to automatically be part of a problematic group, like Thor apparently is.

So, I probably agree with 99% of the values as such of this part of my fellow leftists, but not with a part of the applications. I strongly believe in equality for everybody, but equality means equal rights for everybody, which also means equal moral responsibilities for everybody, not one far less severe set of rules for one group, and enormously less strict rules for another, and certain artificial divisions of humanity as a whole being granted enormously greater power than all of the others, as that comes across as reverse-supremacism and a form of hatred in itself.

If we are going to learn to all get along on this planet, all of the ego-tripping tribalist artificial "group" versus "group" divisions need to end, especially in terms of jingoistic ultranationalistic supremacism, but the "I'm the bestest supremiest best supreme being that ever bestest, and no moral rules or standards apply to me" narrative tendency is also not a wise choice at all, with the Krakoa storyline perhaps being the worst amoral excess displayed yet, and is only helping to drive lots of easily brainwashed people who are not part of favoured groups for the writers into becoming supporters of far right extremist complete monsters instead of getting convinced that equality and love for all is the best available option.

And the whole narrative concept that all the people with powers systematically get away without any bad consequences no matter how extreme atrocities they perform, in comparison to all the regular people who almost all end up tortured forever after they die, regardless that it is completely disproportionate retribution, and not based on rehabilitation and making up for their sins with good deeds, in the slightest for those who can be reformed and redeemed, also sends a horribly supremacist message to me, as does the concept that the people with powers are somehow oppressed by the people without any, while they keep emphasising how superior they are to everybody else, and perform absolutely horrible transgressions without any bad consequences, which is the X-Men concept in a nutshell, and completely opposed to how oppression in the real world usually works.

Sigh. Oh well. I seem to have got off track again. In summary, I just really don't like any form of tribalism, supremacism, or extreme moral double-standards and ego-tripping. One love and equality for all in the true sense of the world. That is all.

And Thor learning more about the struggles of regular people might turn him into an even better character in the long run for all that I know.

🙏❤️🕊
I miss Ikol Loki. He was cool. Now we just have boring evil Loki back with a personality of cardboard since he's a generic villain.
 
Well, to try to be fair, Donny Cates was the one who had Loki turn evil again, and who completely mutilated the character of Donald Blake, and severely mischaracterised Thor as well, whereas Al Ewing had to deal with the bad hand he was dealt. 🙏
 
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Yeah, but like I said, Loki going around having a self-serving deceitful and manipulative god-complex with their narrative powers recently is basically what you get if you merge together the personality of Cates' version with the sheer power of Ewing's version, which is what happened during Ewing's last Defenders storyline, if I remember correctly, meaning that both versions merged together. 🙏
 
You people really sleep on Miracleman comics. There some cool meta-narrative stuff like universe is someone's dream and fiction within fiction within fiction. Unfortunately i can't show scans since for some reasons i can't sign in my imgur account (tried vpn still can't).
 
You people really sleep on Miracleman comics. There some cool meta-narrative stuff like universe is someone's dream and fiction within fiction within fiction. Unfortunately i can't show scans since for some reasons i can't sign in my imgur account (tried vpn still can't).
Didn't they tease Miracleman coming to the mainline Marvel universe way back? Did that go anywhere?
 
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