Berserk: Speed Upgrades

[ElJoaki5]

Sea God Speed Upgrade
The Sea Slugs have been calculated to be Subsonic+ due to dodging a canonball.
The Sea Slugs are nothing more than the whiskers of the Sea God, with the Sea God upscaling massively from them.
This gives the Sea God Subsonic+ speed.
The AP part of the calc is also a supportive feat to add to the verse page.

Guts Speed Upgrade
His feat of stabbing his sword in the ground to not get hit by lightning has been recalced. The new calc just replaces the old calc in the pages and Guts and relative get upgraded to MHS+.
There’s also a feat of Serpico deflecting lightning which gives consistency to the MHS+ scaling.

Agree: @FinePoint and @Celestial_Pegasus

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Agree

 

[SheevShezarrine]

MHS+ Guts yippee!!

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

It seems good

 

[Zingerpond]

The Sea Slugs are nothing more than the whiskers of the Sea God, with the Sea God upscaling massively from them

In terms of strength, AP and durability sure, but it doesn't inherently upscale in terms of speed. It's main body is massive and less mobile than its whiskers, so it shouldn't just automatically upscale because its larger.

There’s also a feat of Serpico deflecting lightning which gives consistency to the MHS+ scaling

I do not think that just because there are more than one feat from the same arc supporting it, that it's correct to say that Guts consistently moves some thousand times faster than his own arm canon.

Disagree

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I do not think that just because there are more than one feat from the same arc supporting it, that it's correct to say that Guts consistently moves some thousand times faster than his own arm canon.

Disagree

C/R Speed are not the same as travel speed.

 

[ElJoaki5]

In terms of strength, AP and durability sure, but it doesn't inherently upscale in terms of speed. It's main body is massive and less mobile than its whiskers, so it shouldn't just automatically upscale because its larger.

As if the argument was based on size. The Sea God scales due to being portrayed as massively superior in general to it’s whiskers in the statements.

I do not think that just because there are more than one feat from the same arc supporting it, that it's correct to say that Guts consistently moves some thousand times faster than his own arm canon.

Theres six lightning dodging feats in total. The canon thing doesnt make sense, Guts never uses the canon for its speed anyway and has begun using it less with the berserker.

 

[AyOgUyS]

This seems simple. Agree.

 

[Zingerpond]

C/R Speed are not the same as travel speed

I am fully aware of that and I am not talking about travel speed at all.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I am fully aware of that and I am not talking about travel speed at all.

Then your argument boils down to I don't believe that he is faster than his arm cannon which is an Argument from Incredulity.

 

[Zingerpond]

As if the argument was based on size. The Sea God scales due to being portrayed as massively superior in general to it’s whiskers in the statements.

An elephant would probably be considered "massively superior in general" to a mouse, that doesn't make it faster.

Theres six lightning dodging feats in total. The canon thing doesnt make sense, Guts never uses the canon for its speed anyway and has begun using it less with the berserker.

He's still uses it. Like imagine fighting a dude and then he threw a ball moving at a literal snails pace, a thousand times slower than what he's capable of moving. The fact the canon isn't just casually sidestepped by everything and Guts isn't fast enough to just statue every enemy never getting hit means that he doesn't attack and dodge at totally incomparable levels of speed. Like he can still be faster than the canon ball, but somewhere before a thousand times faster it becomes nonsensical.

 

[Zingerpond]

Then your argument boils down to I don't believe that he is faster than his arm cannon which is an Argument from Incredulity

My argument is more along the lines of: if he was actually a thousand times faster than canons, canon balls would either never hit anything ever because they're too slow, or he would never get hit ever because he'd be too fast.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

An elephant would probably be considered "massively superior in general" to a mouse, that doesn't make it faster.

This is just a bad example.
Elephants move at 16mph. Mouses move at 8 mph.

He's still uses it. Like imagine fighting a dude and then he threw a ball moving at a literal snails pace, a thousand times slower than what he's capable of moving. The fact the canon isn't just casually sidestepped by everything and Guts isn't fast enough to just statue every enemy never getting hit means that he doesn't attack and dodge at totally incomparable levels of speed. Like he can still be faster than the canon ball, but somewhere before a thousand times faster it becomes nonsensical.

Do you have actual examples of this? Because Guts usually shoots the canon point blank

 

[ElJoaki5]

The canon doesnt even use canonballs either, its an explosion. That makes it a lower speed difference.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

Theres six lightning dodging feats in total. The canon thing doesnt make sense, Guts never uses the canon for its speed anyway and has begun using it less with the berserker.

And surprisingly this is the only achievement that is Mhs+.
It's a 6x difference from Serpico so far, this can still be considered an Outlier, even more so considering that Guts is consistently shown to be marked by lightning.
Being faster than lightning can indeed be considered an Outlier here.

 

[Zingerpond]

This is just a bad example

Fair, but you get my point. Just because its noted as "superior" doesn't inherently make it faster especially because due to its sheer size alone most would already consider it way more dangerous even if it was slower. And the Sea God still has the whiskers, so there's really no scenario where a single whisker would ever be able to outclass the entire thing.

Do you have actual examples of this? Because Guts usually shoots the canon point blank

The fact he uses it point blank doesn't change anything really. You are arguing that Guts is able to effectively use an attack that moves a thousand times slower than the speed he otherwise fights at.

The last time that I can remember him using the canon was against the wicker men in chapter 343. The wicker men aren't really that big a threat, but it's shown (in the same chapter) that they are able to almost hit Guts barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead. Meaning they're not worlds apart in terms of speed. Guts shoots one of the wicker men, weakening it before finishing it off with his sword. If Guts had been a thousand times faster than the wicker man, there is no reason for why he got disarmed. Likewise if the wicker man was a few hundred times faster than the cannonball, there's also no reason for why it got tagged by the cannonball. Either character should've been able to just completely outmaneuver the attack hundreds of times slower than themselves. This entire exchange only makes sense if neither Guts or the wicker man is a thousand times faster than the cannonball.

 

[Zingerpond]

The canon doesnt even use canonballs either, its an explosion. That makes it a lower speed difference

You sure? Like in chapter 343 there's definitively some kind of projectile and the regular canons also just look like explosions in chapter 310.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Fair, but you get my point. Just because its noted as "superior" doesn't inherently make it faster especially because due to its sheer size alone most would already consider it way more dangerous even if it was slower. And the Sea God still has the whiskers, so there's really no scenario where a single whisker would ever be able to outclass the entire thing.

The fact he uses it point blank doesn't change anything really. You are arguing that Guts is able to effectively use an attack that moves a thousand times slower than the speed he otherwise fights at.

The last time that I can remember him using the canon was against the wicker men in chapter 343. The wicker men aren't really that big a threat, but it's shown (in the same chapter) that they are able to almost hit Guts barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead. Meaning they're not worlds apart in terms of speed. Guts shoots one of the wicker men, weakening it before finishing it off with his sword. If Guts had been a thousand times faster than the wicker man, there is no reason for why he got disarmed. Likewise if the wicker man was a few hundred times faster than the cannonball, there's also no reason for why it got tagged by the cannonball. Either character should've been able to just completely outmaneuver the attack hundreds of times slower than themselves. This entire exchange only makes sense if neither Guts or the wicker man is a thousand times faster than the cannonball.

what if the cannonball is js that fast?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The last time that I can remember him using the canon was against the wicker men in chapter 343. The wicker men aren't really that big a threat, but it's shown (in the same chapter) that they are able to almost hit Guts barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead. Meaning they're not worlds apart in terms of speed. Guts shoots one of the wicker men, weakening it before finishing it off with his sword. If Guts had been a thousand times faster than the wicker man, there is no reason for why he got disarmed. Likewise if the wicker man was a few hundred times faster than the cannonball, there's also no reason for why it got tagged by the cannonball. Either character should've been able to just completely outmaneuver the attack hundreds of times slower than themselves. This entire exchange only makes sense if neither Guts or the wicker man is a thousand times faster than the cannonball.

Your being disingenious with your framing:

Pretty clear that they are nowhere near the level of Guts' speed. He's pretty casually dodging them, and he shot them from somewhere they couldn't see hence couldn't react to.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Your being disingenious with your framing:

Pretty clear that they are nowhere near the level of Guts' speed. He's pretty casually dodging them, and he shot them from somewhere they couldn't see hence couldn't react to.

Even Isidro dodging this

 

[ElJoaki5]

And surprisingly this is the only achievement that is Mhs+.
It's a 6x difference from Serpico so far, this can still be considered an Outlier, even more so considering that Guts is consistently shown to be marked by lightning.
Being faster than lightning can indeed be considered an Outlier here.

He only got hit by a lightning that came from behind him.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

He only got hit by a lightning that came from behind him.

And he was aware of that lightning, and yet he was barely able to move.

We also have another statement from Daiba that there is no way to be faster than these lightning bolts, and for some reason Guts is being faster here.

 

[Zingerpond]

Your being disingenious with your framing:

I am not, I literally said "The last time that I can remember him using the canon was against the wicker men in chapter 343. The wicker men aren't really that big a threat, but it's shown (in the same chapter) that they are able to almost hit Guts barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead.". Here I specifically say that the wicker man wasn't really a threat and that the reason for why I chose that feat specifically was because it was the latest one involving his canon that I can remember.

Pretty clear that they are nowhere near the level of Guts' speed. He's pretty casually dodging them, and he shot them from somewhere they couldn't see hence couldn't react to.

It was still fast enough to hit the back end of Guts's sword when he dodged forward instead of backwards. And the wicker man knew where Guts was, it's not blind and it's not like it has any personality and therefore reason to gloat or stall. If it was somewhere close to hundreds of times faster than his arm canon, the wicker man would've hit his enemy lying on the ground right in front of him way faster than what it takes for something moving hundreds of times slower than itself to hit it.

I am not claiming the wicker man to be faster than Guts, I'm not saying Guts can't in theory scale somewhere above canon balls in terms of speed, I'm disagreeing specifically with him being about a thousand times faster than them.

 

[Zingerpond]

what if the cannonball is js that fast

If we're going that route we could also say what if the lightning was just that slow

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

And he was aware of that lightning, and yet he was barely able to move.

Uh no? Pretty clear he was distracted.

We also have another statement from Daiba that there is no way to be faster than these lightning bolts, and for some reason Guts is being faster here.

We see Serpico and Guts be faster than lightning bolts right after this statement.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I am not, I literally said "The last time that I can remember him using the canon was against the wicker men in chapter 343. The wicker men aren't really that big a threat, but it's shown (in the same chapter) that they are able to almost hit Guts barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead.". Here I specifically say that the wicker man wasn't really a threat and that the reason for why I chose that feat specifically was because it was the latest one involving his canon that I can remember.


It was still fast enough to hit the back end of Guts's sword when he dodged forward instead of backwards. And the wicker man knew where Guts was, it's not blind and it's not like it has any personality and therefore reason to gloat or stall. If it was somewhere close to hundreds of times faster than his arm canon, the wicker man would've hit his enemy lying on the ground right in front of him way faster than what it takes for something moving hundreds of times slower than itself to hit it.

I am not claiming the wicker man to be faster than Guts, I'm not saying Guts can't in theory scale somewhere above canon balls in terms of speed, I'm disagreeing specifically with him being about a thousand times faster than them.

What the hell are you even babbling about? Nothing you just said happened

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

Uh no? Pretty clear he was distracted.

They literally know the presence of lightning coming, and they don't react.

And this happened before, Guts taking Lightning Blitz being saved by Serpico.

Notably what the scene gives us is that Guts barely reacted against the lightning, but not in a way that he is faster than one, and again, this may be an Outlier, it's a 6× difference compared to Serpico's feat, which previously saved him from a.

 

[Da3ggman]

Mouses move at 8 mph.

Erm actually the correct word is mice

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Erm actually the correct word is mice

Damn entire arg deboonked

 

[Zingerpond]

What the hell are you even babbling about? Nothing you just said happened

"barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead"

So guts just let go of his sword and got on his ass and effectively waster his once per battle move for fun instead of using his supposed thousand times speed advantage to absolutely statue the wicker man?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

"barely missing pinning his sword to the ground instead"

So guts just let go of his sword and got on his ass and effectively waster his once per battle move for fun instead of using his supposed thousand times speed advantage to absolutely statue the wicker man?

It didn't pin his sword. Guts just let his sword go to aim the cannon something he has always done. He then proceeds to immediately blitz the guy.

But enough of this lets get back to your original argument.

I do not think that just because there are more than one feat from the same arc supporting it, that it's correct to say that Guts consistently moves some thousand times faster than his own arm canon.

Disagree

I want scans that either state or show explicitly that Guts is slower than his arm cannon.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

They literally know the presence of lightning coming, and they don't react.

That is due to the amount being shot. When Guts sees the lightning coming, he reacts to it. Keep in mind, Daiba also said, "Nothing can harm the Emperor". Yet, Guts proves it not to be true. Daiba is pretty clearly underestimating his opponents while glazing his boss. His statements shouldn't be taken as Gospel especially when he gets a lot wrong.

And this happened before, Guts taking Lightning Blitz being saved by Serpico.

Notably what the scene gives us is that Guts barely reacted against the lightning, but not in a way that he is faster than one, and again, this may be an Outlier, it's a 6× difference compared to Serpico's feat, which previously saved him from a.

Its not a blitz. Serpico was right in front of him that why Guts didn't move, and in the very next page, Guts is shown dodging lightning which further dissproves Daiba's Statement.

 

[AyOgUyS]

If we're going that route we could also say what if the lightning was just that slow

so lightning doesnt move at the speed of lightning. wow

 

[Zingerpond]

so lightning doesnt move at the speed of lightning. wow

So cannonballs doesn't move at the speed of cannonballs now. wow

 

[Zingerpond]

It didn't pin his sword. Guts just let his sword go to aim the cannon something he has always done

We literally see the log part of the wicker man hit where his sword is. If he was a literal thousand times faster than the wicker man he would've just statued the thing instead of wasting his once per battle move.

He then proceeds to immediately blitz the guy

With the cannon, who would if mhs+ scaling was accepted be a thousand times slower than himself. And then finishes it off once it falls to it's knees from the damage done by the canon.

I want scans that either state or show explicitly that Guts is slower than his arm cannon

I am not arguing for that position, I'm just arguing against him being a thousand or several hundred times faster than it. I have already stated that I think it's perfectly fine to scale Guts's speed some amount of times faster than his cannon.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I am not arguing for this position, I'm just arguing against him being a thousand or several hundred times faster than it. I have already stated that I think it's perfectly fine to scale Guts's speed some amount of times faster than his cannon.

So, its okay for him to be faster, but not too much fast because you don't like it? Okay.

 

[Zingerpond]

because you don't like it

Because if the difference in speed is too large it creates an internal consistency issue where every enemy guts faces should either be completely blitzed by him, or treat his arm cannon like an absolute joke. This however is not the case and the arm cannon is portrayed as a powerful weapon that saves Guts from though situations, but only once per battle.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Because if the difference in speed is too large it creates an internal consistency issue where every enemy guts faces should either be completely blitzed by him, or treat his arm cannon like an absolute joke. This however is not the case and the arm cannon is portrayed as a powerful weapon that saves Guts from though situations, but only once per battle.

Lots of yap and no scans.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Have we considered that maybe there's no Watsonian explanation for why Guts can dodge lightning yet his cannon is still relative to him in speed, and perhaps we should just accept that Miura wanted Guts to become more and more physically capable over the course of the story but didn't give a **** about powerscaling and thus didn't consider the implications of an MHS character having a transonic firearm? To my knowledge, characters with MHS feats that still get menaced by guns and bombs aren't even all that rare.