Guts vs Maul - Rematch

[Phsccarvalho]

The inconsistency here determine character and power use, that’s why it matters.

It doesn't determine, unless you really think that due to their character/personality, several characters would literally rather die than use a single force power to easily defend themselves.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It doesn't determine, unless you really think that due to their character/personality, several characters would literally rather die than use a single force power to easily defend themselves.

To be fair, there are literally characters like that in fiction. XD

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I mean, Guts resists the heat of the plasma based on the lightning thing,

I'm taking this back based on the fact that I realized that Guts's resistance to fire/heat comes from the normal fire? Which is not enough for the lightsaber.

Besides, we don't give heat resistance because we resist electricity, and even if we did, the lightsaber easily cuts through guys who resist the same thing.

To be fair, there are literally characters like that in fiction. XD

I mean, in all fiction, yes.

But here it's basically saying "Jedi would rather literally die, even when they're trying to protect themselves and their padawans, than use any force power."

 

[Keeweed]

I'm taking this back based on the fact that I realized that Guts's resistance to fire/heat comes from the normal fire? Which is not enough for the lightsaber.

Besides, we don't give heat resistance because we resist electricity

We do give heat resistance from lightning. It’s how Bloodborne, Rwby, and Monster Hunter have it.

 

[Keeweed]

It doesn't determine, unless you really think that due to their character/personality, several characters would literally rather die than use a single force power to easily defend themselves.

Multiple characters in Star Wars, including Maul I might add, have died for this very reason. He went for the sword duel with Obi wan and died from a feint.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

We do give heat resistance from lightning. It’s how Bloodborne, Rwby, and Monster Hunter have it.

All of these have resistance to fire and so on. It's not very common to see resistance to electricity and heat together.

But anyway, there's what I said later. Lightsabers can easily cut through guys who resist it.

Multiple characters in Star Wars, including Maul I might add, have died for this very reason. He went for the sword duel with Obi wan and died from a feint.

Maul was caught off guard the first time and was quickly cut down. The second time they were talking and when they started the battle they were both fully on guard and aware of each other's movements, and when the duel began, Obi-Wan quickly ended the duel before Maul could do anything.

There were no openings for Maul to try TK or other offensives like that.

In addition, the two know each other and have a history, considering the dialogue he has with Obi-Wan before his death.
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Others are purely PIS, like many Jedi during Order 66 among others.

 

[Keeweed]

How many times can Jedi and sith die in ways the force can prevent before it stops being pis. Because I am thinking of lots of times, like GG pulling out a pistol on a Jedi slowly without them realizing it, or Bane shooting Jedi with electric stuff, and that guy that got mauled, or that Jedi who was dragged into a light saber stab with another Jedi.
Maul was literally staring at Obi wan the first time, if that caught him off guard then many attacks would catch him off guard here.
Second time the precognition should have told him about the feint, it was the first move what else could there have been to foresee it wrong.

 

[Keeweed]

Plus why would Maul not want to use the force on obi wan for honor reasons? Obi specifically split him in half by using the force to get to him, after maul force pushed him too, their rivalry literally started with force powers. For this fight though, crappy force powers.

 

[Emerald]

All of these have resistance to fire and so on. It's not very common to see resistance to electricity and heat together.

Ganishka's lightning literally incinerates demons and demonstrates heat, so ye its valid

 

[Phsccarvalho]

How many times can Jedi and sith die in ways the force can prevent before it stops being pis. Because I am thinking of lots of times, like GG pulling out a pistol on a Jedi slowly without them realizing it, or Bane shooting Jedi with electric stuff, and that guy that got mauled, or that Jedi who was dragged into a light saber stab with another Jedi.
Maul was literally staring at Obi wan the first time, if that caught him off guard then many attacks would catch him off guard here.
Second time the precognition should have told him about the feint, it was the first move what else could there have been to foresee it wrong.

That's what PIS means, they not only have countless ways to survive but also to dodge them. PIS is this, the story contradicts the character's capabilities, which SW does so explicitly that basically everyone on the internet complains about how in the case of Acolyte they ignored the most basic initial Jedi training to put that smoke thing. Like, blatant examples of PIS.

Like, that's really it and I gave you examples that you ignored.

Again, do you think that based on Cal's Master's character/personality he would rather die than use any force power to protect himself and his padawan? Do you think that based on Luke's character/personality, he would rather die than use a simple TK on Rancor?
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As you said, he was caught off guard. The moment Obi-Wan hit the ground he cut Maul before he could even raise his lightsaber.

And about precognition, you know what, he was fighting a Jedi, someone who has the same set of skills (force sense, instinctive reaction, precognition, heightened perception, etc.), in quotes, the two would """""cancel""""" each other out since they can both counterattack in the same way, which depends on each one's mastery and skill in the force. Maul doesn't have the same problem with Guts.

Here, Maul is like, watching Guts in slow motion, you know?

Ganishka's lightning literally incinerates demons and demonstrates heat, so ye its valid

You should put this on the page.

Incinerates at what level?

 

[Emerald]

You should put this on the page.

Its literally on the page tho
Ganishka

His lightning is stated to almost turn reincarnated Apostles into ash

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Its literally on the page tho
Ganishka

I was referring to Guts' page. It would be useful to have it on his page as well.

 

[Keeweed]

No PIS means it contradicts the characters usual strategy, not their abilities. Jedi getting murdered, despite having the tools, is for plot reasons if they consistently use them then just stop doing so for no reason. If they don’t use them all the time they are consistently just dumb.

 

[Keeweed]

I was referring to Guts' page. It would be useful to have it on his page as well.

It doesn’t need to be on his page though because again, lightning does count for heat resistance if sustained for an extended period of time. Like Guts.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

No PIS means it contradicts the characters usual strategy, not their abilities. Jedi getting murdered, despite having the tools, is for plot reasons if they consistently use them then just stop doing so for no reason. If they don’t use them all the time they are consistently just dumb.

PIS is something that happens in the story that contradicts the character's capabilities. And SW is so blatantly full of it that even non-powerscalers complain about it in some series like Acolyte.

I'll ask you again:

Again, do you think that based on Cal's Master's character/personality he would rather die than use any force power to protect himself and his padawan? Do you think that based on Luke's character/personality, he would rather die than use a simple TK on Rancor?

It doesn’t need to be on his page though because again, lightning does count for heat resistance if sustained for an extended period of time. Like Guts.

It was more to know the level of heat from the lightning that Guts resisted. Since I only saw his profile, the scan only showed apparently common lightning.

 

[Keeweed]

Abilities and character, but mainly character. It’s called plot induced stupidity because stupidity is suddenly induced onto the character. But if the character already doesn’t use their abilities like that then stupidity wasn’t induced on them, they just use the abilities less optimally than even the audience would and that’s annoying.

Ah didn’t know it would be above normal lightning from the scan, I see.

 

[Pyro9278]

The argument that Maul wouldn't use TK on Guts because it's 'inconsistent' seems blatant and is merely a plot device to maintain the plausibility of its events. There are countless cases where a character could have been saved by an ability they certainly possessed, and these are always excused by narrative arguments. But the issue is that in SW, the logic of these abilities is often bypassed to move the story forward.

The argument for Guts surviving this is that Maul wouldn't resort to TK at all during the entire fight, as if he were unwilling to kill. And even if his intention wasn't to kill Guts with the Force, nothing stops Maul from casually using it to disarm him or hinder his attacks with LS.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Abilities and character, but mainly character. It’s called plot induced stupidity because stupidity is suddenly induced onto the character. But if the character already doesn’t use their abilities like that then stupidity wasn’t induced on them, they just use the abilities less optimally than even the audience would and that’s annoying.

PIS is about the character's ability being contradicted/ignored by the plot of the story.

It's not just a matter of the character using it in a less than optimal way, it's completely ignoring it without explanation, as in the case of basic Jedi training. Or the character dying to something that we know he has the ability to get rid of, because it was demonstrated to us beforehand.

It's not something like a character not using a power because it was explained to us that it's not in the character's nature to use the power, it's simply ignoring it. One thing is using the power in a certain way/strategy, another is the character simply not using that power to save himself from death without any explanation.

And this doesn't just apply to force powers, like, should we downgrade all Jedi/Sith to a combat/reaction speed lower than subsonic because several of them died to blasters? Or should we downgrade Luke's Class M because he apparently can't do it in a Rancor?

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t know how you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of pis. But the point is what does Maul do in character, and that’s not spam tk or precog because he’s shown not to dozens of times to the point of his death twice.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don’t know how you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of pis. But the point is what does Maul do in character, and that’s not spam tk or precog because he’s shown not to dozens of times to the point of his death twice.

I didn't say TK spam, I said he'll use it in the fight when necessary. And when necessary he'll win because any use of force will affect Guts.

Precog is a more explicit ability than shown in PoV in the fiction, like, they have it, every place in SW talks about it. It's not something that can be ignored because of bad writing that ignores more explicit things like this to a totally ridiculous level like Acolyte.

Besides that I explained his two deaths and how there was no way he could abuse TK in those moments.

 

[Keeweed]

He could have shoved Obi further into the hole haha.
But I more mean both his deaths would be hilariously contradicted by precog. Also your main point was literally why Spider-Man’s precognition was downgraded just last week. The very same would apply to Star Wars. The precog is supposedly always on so it can’t be that good with how often everyone gets hit. Or it’s off in which case Star Wars characters just don’t use it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

He could have shoved Obi further into the hole haha.
But I more mean both his deaths would be hilariously contradicted by precog. Also your main point was literally why Spider-Man’s precognition was downgraded just last week. The very same would apply to Star Wars. The precog is supposedly always on so it can’t be that good with how often everyone gets hit. Or it’s off in which case Star Wars characters just don’t use it.

Obi-Wan was already almost dead, he wasn't bloodthirsty enough to go straight in and kill him. However, he literally Force Pushed Obi-Wan to push him into the hole and win that way, he used the Force as a method to defeat an opponent.

Maul was fighting another guy with precognition, so one surprising the other or defeating the other isn't an anti-feat. If the franchise tells us at various times that they have precognition but ignore it, that's a problem with the franchise's poor writing, because they have it and use it based on Lore.

Besides, are you seriously going to use Whataboutism?

The characters use precognition, sometimes it's stated that they do (Episode 1 and Thrawn: Alliances) or it's left implicit, but we know they're capable. The consistency of this doesn't matter much when the series is known for ignoring pre-established powers for the plot.

And seriously, could you answer the questions I asked about this? You basically ignore the questions.

Again, do you think that based on Cal's Master's character/personality he would rather die than use any force power to protect himself and his padawan? Do you think that based on Luke's character/personality, he would rather die than use a simple TK on Rancor?

And this doesn't just apply to force powers, like, should we downgrade all Jedi/Sith to a combat/reaction speed lower than subsonic because several of them died to blasters? Or should we downgrade Luke's Class M because he apparently can't do it in a Rancor?

 

[TegamiBachi25]

I can change my vote to Guts anyway, but come on. Saying Filoni is the one who decided how the force should work is not even the case, not even an actual argument. He doesn't even own Star Wars. Disney does. (his content is better than the dreck Disney produces but that's besides the point). We're the ones going off about how profiles and our scans work, not by someone who has no clue how to debate and probably is busy with current projects and not cross scaling fights

Maul still has TK, telepathy, Force precog, and other stuff to his advantages. It's not going to be easy for Guts at all.

And yes, that argument for Naruto for substitution jutsu still applies. I can easily cite as much arguments why Naruto didn't just use substitution against Pain at all. We accept other PiS stuff for anime, but not for Star Wars? Come on.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Besides, are you seriously going to use Whataboutism?

I took a look at the topic and the conclusion was not just inconsistency = doiwngrade.

Like, literally every weaknesses section has scans from the work itself talking about the weaknesses of the spider sense, its limitations, etc. Something that SW doesn't have, there's nothing like that.

Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

Totally different cases.

I can change my vote to Guts anyway, but come on. Saying Filoni is the one who decided how the force should work is not even the case, not even an actual argument. He doesn't even own Star Wars. Disney does. (his content is better than the dreck Disney produces but that's besides the point). We're the ones going off about how profiles and our scans work, not by someone who has no clue how to debate and probably is busy with current projects and not cross scaling fights

Maul still has TK, telepathy, Force precog, and other stuff to his advantages. It's not going to be easy for Guts at all.

And yes, that argument for Naruto for substitution jutsu still applies. I can easily cite as much arguments why Naruto didn't just use substitution against Pain at all. We accept other PiS stuff for anime, but not for Star Wars? Come on.

So you changed your vote?

 

[Doggo]

I just took a break, and this is what I see.

Regarding PIS and inconsistency, if a character does not use a particular power consistently, then I think they are just that dumb or maybe the power has limitations. Like, even if he technically has them, I doubt he will suddenly pull force statsis and lightning randomly, when he never uses them. He should use TK, though

While Maul has the higher value, he is weaker than the guy who did the feat, who was battered after it. Meanwhile, Guts's berserker armor upscale with his value. I think it's fair to say they even out in AP.

Guts's heat resistance for both his armor and sword should let him deal with the saber. His immo type 2 will let him survive a neck snap or heart crush, and his raw endurance means he will just survive getting thrashed by TK.

Even if Maul is harder to hit thanks to precog, Guts only needs one meaty hit to win. Guts will just tank anything Maul throws at him until Maul gives in due to his VASTLY inferior stamina.

 

[Doggo]

Voting for the guy who is in armor seems eerily similar to some dude in Star Wars

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I just took a break, and this is what I see.

Regarding PIS and inconsistency, if a character does not use a particular power consistently, then I think they are just that dumb or maybe the power has limitations. Like, even if he technically has them, I doubt he will suddenly pull force statsis and lightning randomly, when he never uses them. He should use TK, though

While Maul has the higher value, he is weaker than the guy who did the feat, who was battered after it. Meanwhile, Guts's berserker armor upscale with his value. I think it's fair to say they even out in AP.

Guts's heat resistance for both his armor and sword should let him deal with the saber. His immo type 2 will let him survive a neck snap or heart crush, and his raw endurance means he will just survive getting thrashed by TK.

Even if Maul is harder to hit thanks to precog, Guts only needs one meaty hit to win. Guts will just tank anything Maul throws at him until Maul gives in due to his VASTLY inferior stamina.

The LS difference would do a lot more than break a neck. But how would Guts deal with a guy who's going to see him in slow motion?

I don't understand the last part. The Force and force powers are CM2 anything other than the lightsaber will affect Guts. So what do you mean by that?

 

[Doggo]

The LS difference would do a lot more than break a neck. But how would Guts deal with a guy who's going to see him in slow motion?

I don't understand the last part. The Force and force powers are CM2 anything other than the lightsaber will affect Guts. So what do you mean by that?

I don't think you even understood what I said. Immo type 2 means Guts will just survive getting his neck snapped. Like, Guts will keep fighting even if all his bones are crushed or his heart is destroyed. A simple neck snap is not killing a guy who can keep fighting until his final drop of blood is spilled.

"Slow motion," you mean force stasis? I just elaborated why he won't use it

I meant Guts' immo type 2 will allow him to survive anything Maul will try to do: force choke, force crush, ragdoll, and sabers.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't think you even understood what I said. Immo type 2 means Guts will just survive getting his neck snapped. Like, Guts will keep fighting even if all his bones are crushed or his heart is destroyed. A simple neck snap is not killing a guy who can keep fighting until his final drop of blood is spilled.

"Slow motion," you mean force stasis? I just elaborated why he won't use it

I meant Guts' immo type 2 will allow him to survive anything Maul will try to do: force choke, force crush, ragdoll, and sabers.

Maul's instinctive reaction is an increased perception that makes everything around him go into slow motion. Since the speed is equalized, that's basically it. Also, Guts' Type 2 immortality is listed as limited.

 

[Keeweed]

It’s limited because he’ll die without blood.

Also you missed in the Spider-Man thread where the precognition was also agreed to be way less effective in versus threads now. It’s not a whatabism this is literally the very same scenario. A long running series saying characters have precognition but completely forgetting to incorporate it properly until the story remembers it. So either 9/10 times it ends up being bad, or 9/10 times isn’t on.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also you missed in the Spider-Man thread where the precognition was also agreed to be way less effective in versus threads now. It’s not a whatabism this is literally the very same scenario. A long running series saying characters have precognition but completely forgetting to incorporate it properly until the story remembers it. So either 9/10 times it ends up being bad, or 9/10 times isn’t on.

It is not.

The conclusion of the crt was not "look at the amount of inconsistency let's do a downgrade"

Literally every scan of the Spider-Sense weaknesses section is a scan of the work itself giving canonical information about the spider-sense weaknesses.

Tell me, give me the canonical explanation in SW of why Jedi who can train since childhood to do things without seeing and with all their senses blocked, get confused around the smoke.

EDIT: And it's really funny how every new question I asked above you just didn't answer and ignored.

 

[Xavis10]

Voting for Maul. Looking at each one's profile, I don't see how Guts could deal with Maul, who's massively faster and could evade virtually every hit. One lightsaber slash and it's over.

 

[Pyro9278]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

What's your vote?

 

[Pyro9278]

What's your vote?

I vote for Maul

 

[Robo432343]

same

 

[Catbowtie]

The maul arguments don't work. Guts heat resistance means Maul's lightsaber is useless, so it isn't cutting through Guts like Xavis said, and given the fact that Maul would literally 99% of the time fight to the death using pure sword fighting, he isn't going pulling out any Force jank to kill Guts.

Voting Guts for Doggo's and Keeweed's arguments.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Getting this out of the way immediately: yes, Maul prefers melee combat, so does, say, Obi-Wan... but that DOES NOT and will NEVER mean he refuses to use force powers, this is the case with 90% of Jedi and Sith in both legends and Canon, they prefer a lightsaber duel. Sure, if it's not Darth Nihilus or Palpatine you're probably not going to see them OPEN with a force power, but one-on-one? Yeah, Maul is going to be busting put at least the Force Push.

Maul's problem here is that Guts eats lightning in a way that gives him heat resistance so lightsabers don't really work on him. And no, Force Lightning is not lightning heat prove-ably.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Getting this out of the way immediately: yes, Maul prefers melee combat, so does, say, Obi-Wan... but that DOES NOT and will NEVER mean he refuses to use force powers, this is the case with 90% of Jedi and Sith in both legends and Canon, they prefer a lightsaber duel. Sure, if it's not Darth Nihilus or Palpatine you're probably not going to see them OPEN with a force power, but one-on-one? Yeah, Maul is going to be busting put at least the Force Push.

Maul's problem here is that Guts eats lightning in a way that gives him heat resistance so lightsabers don't really work on him. And no, Force Lightning is not lightning heat prove-ably.

So I put you as voting for Guts?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So I put you as voting for Guts?

Yeah, Maul doesn't spam force powers enough to bypass the skillgap as a swordsman, so he gets killed basically exactly like he does in canon. A single interaction in melee.