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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

So on the topic of Sonic comics... thoughts on the newest IDW issue? Apparently, Sonic Twitter was complaining about it, but I don't even have Twitter anymore so I have no real way of seeing what they're upset about exactly.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
Just a quick question. Is being "faster than teleportation" Infinite speed or higher?
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Depends if the teleportation is proven to be instantaneous. Chaos Control isn't one of them, well, maybe unless you use the Shuffle speed feat to scale the technique above it but idk if thats how it works.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
Depends if the teleportation is proven to be instantaneous. Chaos Control isn't one of them.
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I mean, doesn't Chaos Control literally let you teleport outright? Ian Flynn will say otherwise, but I don't take his word for much. Though it wasn't Chaos Control specifically I was thinking about.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
Depends if the teleportation is proven to be instantaneous. Chaos Control isn't one of them, well, maybe unless you use the Shuffle speed feat to scale the technique above it but idk if thats how it works.
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Instatenous means "in an instant" aka, time passed, so it wouldn't be infinite
 
I'm interested how that might look, in the future. It's not impossible the evidence for Sonic Megami Tensei being canon could increase.
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Why hasn't Doom Shadow been scaled to Metal Overlord's immeasurable ratings?
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I think that's waiting it's own CRT alongside the ratings that will decide the tier of Mephiles yadayadayada

Reason why he wasn't scaled to Metal Overlord's anything from the beginning is because of the controversy that was going on around it's rating, which would also decide its speed too
 
Are those that resisted Time Eater stuff supposed to be missing nonexistence erasure and text erasure resistances? Classic Sonic has those but the others are missing these, unless he's outdated in terms of those resistances
 
Alexander said:

man, this guy comes back again.
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Yes, it's wrong
I mean, I don't think Origins makes the Manuals non-canon (literally the animations last nothing and they keep reusing elements of them nowadays)
Honestly, I'm not a fan of using gameplay calculations, but the arguments to discredit feats via lasers are sooooo bad, the distance the character travels while the laser travels another is calculated, that's why it gives values from Relativistic to FTL (also, I don't think Eggman has weapons veryyyy superior to Sonic)
That Classic Sonic's speed is referenced as supersonic is something that also happens to Modern Sonic (literally the Boost is for breaking the sound barrier, they still call him the supersonic hedgehog )
I don't understand why he wants to discredit Dimensional Travel feats if that's hax's, and that Sonic used an already created portal to escape from Null Space is headcanon
I don't disagree with the infinite speed debunk (I personally don't think the characters reach infinite speed)
I think the Rivals debunk makes sense, I mean, I don't think Eggman Nega traveled several light years to take a picture of Earth
 
Plasmaman33 said:
Not to be a killjoy, but do we take animations from trailers for feats?
(Btw, I like that color for Modern Sonic)
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Not sure but it does support this

I believe an incomplete Time Eater would be Infinite Low 1-C from having erased all of space-time, including Maginaryworld.

That's like, 4 arguments in favor of Low 1-C characters in my list, but apparently 2 of them can be used to get 1-C characters instead (not sure how that would work with the Super Forms variable rating)
 
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Plasmaman33 said:
I mean, I don't think Origins makes the Manuals non-canon (literally the animations last nothing and they keep reusing elements of them nowadays)
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Subscribed to the channel, but I won't watch the video... What did he say about the manuals?
Edit: I ended up watching the video and skipped to that part... What about the translation argument? I mean,I don't think it's a good argument, but if it can really be translated as mentioned... well, it could be a problem for that feat.
 
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Sparkive said:
Subscribed to the channel, but I won't watch the video... What did he say about the manuals?
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It says that the Japanese manuals for the classic games (Sonic 1, 2, 3 and CD) were decanonized/made obsolete by the arrival of Origins

Sparkive said:
Edit: I ended up watching the video and skipped to that part... What about the translation argument? I mean,I don't think it's a good argument, but if it can really be translated as mentioned... well, it could be a problem for that feat.
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I mean, in the CD manual, they still use the kanji for light (plus, it seems to be translated by ChatGPT)
 
I do understand the argument for Erazor’s thing being a spatial loop, honestly it being from a Prima guide makes me think maybe I shouldn’t use it either way, but the description is that the corridor itself “expanded” into an infinite space, rather than hinting that the space is finite and being looped. Plus the Babylonians also being able to craft infinite space showing this kind of potential is possible earlier.
 
Alexander said:
could we stop giving Archie the same abilities has their game selfs when they didn't show them?
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I mean, Archie Sonic's Fate Aura is from, well, Archie
Archie Mephiles also killed Sonic, what are the games' abilities in this case? (Anyway, this is how it works)
 
Why isn't the verse 7-D? Egghead able to create 4-dimensional space, ancients can create even bigger/more complex digital realm. This realms are digital and secondary to universe and to contain infinite 4-D space (since eggman and ancients able to create such spaces it means that universe can hold an unlimited number of 4-dimensional spaces) universe must be 5-dimensional + 1-D (time). And theve is infinite timelines that makes universe 7-D. (I played only games available on PC so I might be misunderstanding something. )
 
ShakeResounding said:
This is said with all the love in my heart... but aren't you the same person who doubts himself and his own arguments when Redditors start getting hyper-skeptical of even 5-D?
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In the context of this site I think 7-D is an option.

Whether I fully agree with the idea of hypertime is a different matter, but 5-D in this site’s context I consider fully acceptable.
 
Alexander said:

man, this guy comes back again.
Click to expand...

So, I watched the entire video, and I basically compiled all of his arguments here, I'll leave them here for you guys to discuss without having to go watch the video if you don't want to. Also, This is going to be a long message, so please be patient with me, there was a lot to write (I'm not good with summaries)

🟥1. Classic Sonic's Speed - 1:35
◼️Arg. 1: "If translated literally, the Sonic CD manual really says that Classic Sonic can reach the speed of light, but it should not be interpreted literally, it is nothing more than a figurative device to emphasize how extraordinary a character is (in other words, he is saying it is a hyperbole) and in fact, the most faithful and truthful translation (which he apparently made himself) mentions nothing about the speed of light"
◾Arg. 1,5: "Also and if that's not enough, this manual was completely decanonized with the release of Sonic Origins, so even if the first translation (the one that mentions the speed of light) was valid, it wouldn't be canon or reliable anymore in the current canon."

◼️Arg. 2: "Another argument used is the cutscene from Sonic CD where Classic Sonic dodges lasers (the Hotarus feat). It is correct that these enemies shoot lasers, but they need a short period of time to charge these lasers, which means they don't get shot immediately, and they also move completely in a straight line, moving only to the point where Hotaru is aiming, so this is nothing more than a feat of "Aim Dodging". We can even see Classic Sonic looking up and seeing the Hotarus, and then he moves before they even fire their lasers."
◾Arg. 2,5: "Also, It's funny how they use this scene of the Hotarus as concrete proof, and don't comment on moments in the same animation where Classic Sonic fails to escape/dodge a collapsing hole in the ground, by chance the collapse of this floor was occurring faster than the speed of light? 🤡"

◼️Arg. 3: "Other argument that I I see being spread is the Laser of the Great Eggman Robo fight in Sonic & Knuckles. Some people say that this laser is even millions of times faster simply because it is being carried by the Master Emerald. Sorry, but what?? This argument has no basis, the Great Eggman Robo even takes longer than the Hotarus to charge his laser, making it even more obvious that this is yet another feat of "Aim Dodging". Sonic is able to deflect this laser not because he has the speed of light, but because the attack is slow, is extremely predictable (aim dodging ✨) and has a poor area of effect and impact, the laser even emits a warning sound before being fired, giving Sonic even more time to react and dodge."
◾Arg. 3,5: "We could go on for hours talking about similar cases where the feat is simply aim dodging, like the Eggman Submarine II's lasers from Sonic 2, Egg Rocket's lasers from Sonic 3 and the Egg Robos' lasers, all of this is nothing more than Sonic predicting the trajectory of the enemies and dodging them before they are fired."

◼️Not a argument, just his interpretation of Classic Sonic's speed: "So how fast is Classic Sonic? The only concrete source we have is that he is faster than sound, specifically faster than Mach 1 up to his unknown limit, but it is evident that he does not even reach the speed of light, since this is only possible in Sonic Adventure with special items, like the Light Speed Shows which were designed exclusively to allow it to reach light speeds"
◾"One of the actual numerical data that appears in the franchise are the Mach 1, 2 and 3 markings in the special stages of Sonic Mania, I'm not saying that's Sonic's top speed, since all characters are capable of reaching this speed, and Sonic generally is the fastest, so he should be faster than Mach 3, but I show this to exemplify that when it comes to the devs highlighting Sonic's speed, it is always in these margins of being just faster than sound, not light of beyond"

🟥2. Sonic's Infinite Speed - 7:07
◼️Arg. 1: "In the last stage of the game, the Night Palace, Sonic is able to escape a seemingly endless corridor, and the official game guide also claims that this corridor has infinite space, but this is all out of context and misinterpretations of what actually happens in the game. What actually happens is that Erazor distorts the corridor space and makes it repeat and extend indefinitely, Sonic is unable to cross the corridor because he is stuck in an spatial loop, to continue he must enter a purple whirlwind and enter the astral plane, information that is present in the scan they always use for this feat, destroy the magic sand clocks that cause this spatial distortion. So no, Sonic doesn't cross the corridor with speed, but rather destroys the trap from the inside to be able to pass."

Just a disclaimer here, for some reason, in this same category regarding Sonic's infinite speed, he will start talking about the characters' ability to travel between dimensions/universes with speed, which for him apparently must be a speed feat and not a haxes.

◾Arg. 1,25: "Another moment that is out of context is the end of the game, where Shara says that Sonic returned to his world after having several adventures, and some interpret this as Sonic having the ability to run and travel between universes, such an extraordinary ability never mentioned or used again in any other game, but if you review Shara's dialogue carefully, she never mentions that Sonic ran back to his world, only that he had some adventures before returning home,It is still visible that he was with the alternate versions of Tails and Knuckles, which shows that he spent some time in the world of the book before finding a way to go back to his world, the most logical thing is that he returned the same way he arrived, that is, through the Lost Prologue, a zone that connects the world of the book with the world of Sonic."
◾Arg 1,5: "And if anyone still insists on this supposed ability to travel through dimensions, why did this ability never appear again? For example, in Sonic Rivals 2, Shadow, who rivals Sonic in speed, gets trapped in Ifrit's dimension, Chaotic Inferno Zone, and is unable to escape from it without a chaos emerald, If Sonic could travel between universes by running, why can't Shadow, who has the same speed as Sonic, do the same? The same thing happens in Sonic Rush, where Sonic and Tails get trapped in the Sol Dimension, and at no point is it hinted that Sonic can simply run away and travel back to his universe, instead, Tails builds a ship powered by the Chaos Emeralds to return to their universe. Someone will probably mention what happens in Sonic Rush, where Sonic and Blaze are able to use a special artifact capable of creating dimensional portals to travel to the game's Special Stages, leaving aside that this is just gameplay mechanics and even within the game's narrative the characters get the emeralds in other ways independent of the Special Stages, The problem is that it is never specified what speed the characters need to reach to open these dimensional portals, and it is not even established that their speed alone is enough to open these portals, If they were able to open portals just by running, then what use would a device literally called a Special Generator have? Isn't this device what creates the dimensional portal to enter the special stages?"
◾Arg. 1,75: "Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem impossible that Sonic could travel between dimensions at some point, or this could be interpreted due to certain events in Sonic Forces. In the game, Sonic and the Avatar are trapped in Null Space, a dimension created by Infinite, but they are able to escape from it, at first many might think that they managed to do so thanks to Sonic's speed, but no, I highly doubt that they escaped simply by running, since the portal they used to escape was already opening before they even reached it, which indicates that they didn't simply run until they were suddenly teleported out of the dimension, but rather that the portal was already there open for them to reach it. The most logical thing to think is that the key to this feat was the Phantom Ruby prototype that the Avatar carried, It is possible that by using Double Boost together Sonic and Avatar channeled Ruby's energy, which caused its activation and the opening of that portal. Also, the portal that appears at this moment is very similar to the one that appears at the end of Sonic Mania when Classic Sonic is transported to Sonic Forces, while the portal that appears when Sonic and the Avatar escape Null Space looks visually similar to the one that appears when Classic Sonic arrives in Sonic Forces, which cannot be a simple coincidence, also, One of the characteristics of the Phantom Ruby, including in its prototypes, is the creation of dimensional rifts. Of course, everything I have just presented is nothing more than my interpretation, I'm not setting everything in stone, since we don't really know how Null Space works. But there is something I can say without any margin of error, Sonic did not escape alone, both in the game and in official materials such as Encyclo-speed-ia, it is highlighted that it was thanks to teamwork that Sonic and the Avatar managed to escape, It wasn't a feat of individual speed on Sonic's part, but rather a shared feat. Maybe if that's really the case, where both of their efforts were enough to escape the dimension, who knows, maybe one day Sonic can do it on his own in the future, but this all remains extremely hypothetical, since at no point in the franchise is it stated that one can travel between dimensions with speed alone.

🟥3. Sonic Rivals 1 Speed Feat - 13:16
◼️"Now let's debunk a even more ridiculous feat which is not only attributed to Sonic, but to several characters in the series. A lot of people consider the final boss of Sonic Rivals as proof that the characters can move or react at millions of times the speed of light, And the reason? In this phase Eggman Nega escapes in a ship, and Sonic and other characters chase him on top of it, in the background, there are lines that some interpret as blurred stars, stars that were supposedly light years away, and in a matter of seconds, it is concluded that the ship is traveling at 546 million times the speed of light, furthermore, Sonic and the others dodge meteors that collide with the ship, which, following this logic, would also move at speeds similar to the speed of the ship. All of this is a collection of baseless assumptions. For starters, this background animation of moving lines has been used in other games like Sonic Rush, including in moments where Sonic is just moving a few meters, it is just a stylized visual effect, not a literal representation of the ship's movement in outer space. The worst of all is the misinterpreted context of the game's ending, what Eggman Nega was trying to do was to distance himself a little from Earth to take a good photo of the planet, and to do that, he certainly wouldn't need to travel millions of light years, but rather simply move away a little from the planet orbit, the necessary distance is not absurd and much less justifies speeds millions of times greater than light speed. And about the meteors that the characters dodge, there is no reason to assume that these also move at speeds close to light, they could perfectly be debris floating in space, like those at the end of Sonic 3 & Knuckles in the battle against Eggman's Final Weapon. The explanation for all this can be found in the penultimate level of the game, Eggman's space base, Meteor Base Zone, located in an asteroid field, and Eggman Nega's ship is at the end of this stage, which indicates that his journey began there, so he was just crossing this specific area of space, since meteorites still continue to appear during the chase, then they were still in the asteroid field region, not traveling at millions of times the speed of light. And about the luminous lines at the bottom of the level, they are nothing more than visual effects to demonstrate that the ship is moving quickly, and this is quite common in the franchise, as I showed in the last debunk, where many interpreted that the final battle against Ultimate Gemerl took place in a Star Cluster, millions of light years away from Earth, solely based on the appearance of the starry background, when in fact this background represents only an aesthetic element to illustrate the final battle, it is merely an artistic device not a quantifiable resource to measure a char
acter's speed or power.”
 
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