Toshiro doesn't scale to Gerard in Striking Strength (and physicals)

[Guacamolefletcher]

Introduction​

Pretty much what the title says. Adult Toshiro shouldn't be scaled to Gerard in terms of AP.

Evidence​

The feat in question happens when he cuts the Hoffnung in half (Bleach, Chapter 671, Page 7). At the moment we see the sword being cut, it is already completely frozen. This detail is crucial because, immediately afterward, he explains that his freezing ability causes all matter to cease functioning—rendering Hoffnung’s power nulled.

While the manga doesn’t explicitly show him freezing the sword before striking it, the context strongly supports that sequence of events. If he had attempted to cut it without neutralizing its ability first, the damage would have been reflected back onto him, as shown when the sword’s power is explained in Chapter 667, Pages 16–17.

This is also evidenced in chapter 668, Page 11, where Toshiro explains that his plan is to freeze Gerard first, and then damage him.

Scaling conclusions​

Due to Toshiro's weak physical body in this state, shown by him getting physically dominated by Gerard and his body having a low stamina, he shouldn't scale to Gerard's full AP. There are several ways we can do it:

• scale him to "at least" his previous power
• scale him to "unknown, likely at least"
• scale him to "unknown, likely at least"

Votes: (staff only)​

Agree:
Disagree:

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I agree and I think either proposed option is fine.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Strongly disagree, and I will give reasons soon

 

[ItsMeat]

Disagree, even if the sword was frozen, this only nullified its powers, not the durability. Unlike rukia's bankai, we don't know the temperature of toshiro's ice and this plays a crucial role in the easiness of breaking the sword. Even more, it is a sword that should be able to cut gerard himself, being more durable than him. Nullifying merely the ability doesn't also nullify the durability.

 

[Specterxxxx]

First and foremost, Gerard in his 4A key that just fought and evolved from fighting bankai kenpachi (Also 4A) calls mature toshiro a worthy opponent. Note that at the time he says this, he and mature toshiro hadn't fought yet so he is most likely making the statement from his rekaiku ability to gauge reiatsu power levels meaning toshiro's power level alone was enough to make him a worthy opponent.

Secondly, toshiro with his ice easily stops and cancels out the force that Gerard's uses in tossing his shield at him (something that would require 4A levels of AP) since there is no reason to believe gerard would hold back his strength/power against toshiro. This should be a blatant 4A feat for toshiro perhaps even more blatant than even when he cuts hoffung.

Third, in your arguments, you literally show a scan of toshiro surviving Gerard's attempts to crush him. If he didn't have comparable durability to withstand Gerard's physical AP he would have died or at least been heavily damaged the moment Gerard grabbed him. Yet he was almost unscathed. Also note that Gerard's physicals would also scale to his AP according to his profile and the fact he could damage kenpachi with his hands. And if toshiro's durability is 4A, then his AP would also be 4A via the bleach mechanics on soul reaper power system.

To Address your statement on "where Toshiro explains that his plan is to freeze Gerard first, and then damage him" First off, toshiro doesn't say "damage", he says/implies shred him to pieces something only byakuya can do and Toshiro only says this because of Gerard's ability to evolve from physical damage and toshiro's inability to shred things like byakuya so he has to first freeze gerard to the bone in an attempt to nullify Gerard by sealing him and byakuya to destroy him while the ice holds him in place. That was basically the interpretation of what toshiro meant.

Also I hope you know that your argument about his stamina is irrelevant and holds no merit to your overall argument. For example, Ichigo while fighting grimjoww with the hollow mask for the first time had poor stamina due to his incomplete training yet he had enough power to scale to grimjoww. Besides Toshiro is the youngest captain in the series he hasn't trained his zanpakuto as much as the others so there would be issues such as this but it wouldn't take away the fact that he still scales.


So yes, in his mature bankai key, He scales above shikai kenpachi without the eye patch and is relative to gerard second 4A key evolution and should be given a full flat rating on that key and not "likely" or "possibly".

 

[Purgy]

While the manga doesn’t explicitly show him freezing the sword before striking it, the context strongly supports that sequence of events. If he had attempted to cut it without neutralizing its ability first, the damage would have been reflected back onto him, as shown when the sword’s power is explained in Chapter 667, Pages 16–17.

I don't think this is a very strong argument, it's clearly shown even in those pages you posted that Hoffnung's damage reflection is not instantaneous, he very well could have cut it and then frozen it in quick succession, nullifying it before the damage was reflected.

Having said that, I do admit that it's quite hard to scale them physically to each other convincingly, though I think a likely or possibly is reasonable.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I think Toshiro's profile in his mature key should be more elaborated after this thread to prevent things like this. Cutting hoffung is one of many argument used to support 4A Toshiro but there are other arguments. If the specifics of cutting hoffung is hard to interpret then the other evidences supporting his relativity should be elaborated in his profile to provide consistent 4A for toshiro in that key to make it more substantial.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

First and foremost, Gerard in his 4A key that just fought and evolved from fighting bankai kenpachi (Also 4A) calls mature toshiro a worthy opponent. Note that at the time he says this, he and mature toshiro hadn't fought yet so he is most likely making the statement from his rekaiku ability to gauge reiatsu power levels meaning toshiro's power level alone was enough to make him a worthy opponent.

Secondly, toshiro with his ice easily stops and cancels out the force that Gerard's uses in tossing his shield at him (something that would require 4A levels of AP) since there is no reason to believe gerard would hold back his strength/power against toshiro. This should be a blatant 4A feat for toshiro perhaps even more blatant than even when he cuts hoffung.

Third, in your arguments, you literally show a scan of toshiro surviving Gerard's attempts to crush him. If he didn't have comparable durability to withstand Gerard's physical AP he would have died or at least been heavily damaged the moment Gerard grabbed him. Yet he was almost unscathed. Also note that Gerard's physicals would also scale to his AP according to his profile and the fact he could damage kenpachi with his hands. And if toshiro's durability is 4A, then his AP would also be 4A via the bleach mechanics on soul reaper power system.

To Address your statement on "where Toshiro explains that his plan is to freeze Gerard first, and then damage him" First off, toshiro doesn't say "damage", he says/implies shred him to pieces something only byakuya can do and Toshiro only says this because of Gerard's ability to evolve from physical damage and toshiro's inability to shred things like byakuya so he has to first freeze gerard to the bone in an attempt to nullify Gerard by sealing him and byakuya to destroy him while the ice holds him in place. That was basically the interpretation of what toshiro meant.

Also I hope you know that your argument about his stamina is irrelevant and holds no merit to your overall argument. For example, Ichigo while fighting grimjoww with the hollow mask for the first time had poor stamina due to his incomplete training yet he had enough power to scale to grimjoww. Besides Toshiro is the youngest captain in the series he hasn't trained his zanpakuto as much as the others so there would be issues such as this but it wouldn't take away the fact that he still scales.


So yes, in his mature bankai key, He scales above shikai kenpachi without the eye patch and is relative to gerard second 4A key evolution and should be given a full flat rating on that key and not "likely" or "possibly".

Gerard specifies Tōshirō is a more worthy opponent than before, which just means he got stronger, not inherently that he’s Gerard level.

Surviving being crushed would be a lifting strength feat, that being said I do agree his durability is probably near 4-A if he wasn’t turned into paste by a forceful grab. So, given how Reiryoku works, his AP is fine with a likely bare minimum probably.

I agree with the result of your sentiment.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I will respond to the arguments made here in detail tomorrow. I need to finish something right now, and also to sleep

 

[Specterxxxx]

Gerard specifies Tōshirō is a more worthy opponent than before, which just means he got stronger, not inherently that he’s Gerard level.

My argument was more or less meant to show that Gerard saw toshiro as a threat without having to fight him. The same Gerard didn't make that quote for any other captain he fought including the likes Shinji that used a hollow mask Amp and even zaraki when he removed his eye patch and even went as far to call them weak except zaraki (tho I guess toshiro's change was very very apparent and drastic compared to the others). The point overall was gerard saw toshiro as a threat which should provide consistency for toshiro's relativity.

Surviving being crushed would be a lifting strength feat, that being said I do agree his durability is probably near 4-A if he wasn’t turned into paste by a forceful grab. So, given how Reiryoku works, his AP is fine with a likely bare minimum probably.

Before he was being crushed tho, he got slammed by Gerard's palm launching on him violently I might add that would be striking strength wouldn't it? It is not like he gently grips him. It transitions from striking to lifting.

I agree with the result of your sentiment

Thanks, I do believe the battle consistently showed toshiro to be relative. You can address each points I made and even make reasonable counters but as a collective they should be enough for a full rating to be honest. It is too consistent.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll wait for Eva to reply

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I disagree as well. I basically agree with @Arc7Kuroi and @Specterxxxx conclusion.
I'll make a long post since I'll not be able to answer soon to this thread anymore, feel free to read.

The reason lies in how Reiryoku and Reiatsu function in relation to a Shinigami's stats. As explained in Unmasked, the level of Reiatsu is directly linked to someone speed, reaction time, attack, and defense, all of which are link and increase as Reiatsu increases.

For example, Tōshirō was able to react to and stop the momentum of the strongest Gerard throwing his shield like a weapon. This is significant because Gerard's strikes were able to land an hit and were strong enough to make Shikai Zaraki bleed. Tōshirō, on the other hand, was able to react to an even stronger Gerard’s attack and block his momentum as well. Later, Gerard explicitly tried to crush him, yet it wasn’t enough to wound or bleed Tōshirō, whereas a way weaker Gerard had previously damaged Zaraki causing him bleeding as @Specterxxxx pointed out.

I would add that Gerard wanted to crush Zaraki as well, same words, Gerard thoughts to use both the Hoffungs and even a Quincy bow that is deemed to be a new torrent of power to crush him, beyond mortals (far more than what he tried against a Zaraki that even if underestimated, he still thought to be > Shikai Zaraki)

To give context: against the Visoreds, Renji, Byakuya, Rukia, kid Tōshirō, etc., Gerard never unleashed the Hoffnung. He only did so to fight Shikai Zaraki. The Hoffnung was still massively superior to Zaraki’s Shikai, since even a full-blown attack could only scratch it. Gerard later claimed that, despite feeling an increase in spiritual pressure from Zaraki’s Shikai, he still wasn’t worth using the Hoffnung against. However, Gerard underestimated him, true, Bankai Zaraki proved to be worthy, but what Gerard thought to be an increase from it's shikai self, wasn't.
This shows that Shikai Zaraki represents the bare minimum level for the Hoffnung to be used.
Now, a much, much stronger Gerard, however, stated that Tōshirō himself might be more worthy compared to before, and after seeing his shield get negated, he actually decided to use the Hoffnung, which implies that Tōshirō was already a threat worthy of it even before showing any nullification abilities.
Later, Gerard even tried to use his energy bow, releasing a new torrent of power to crush him, and that was still more than anything Gerard tried against Shikai zaraki.
And yes, keep in mind that this Gerard is massively stronger than the one that Bankai Zaraki bullied. That same Bankai Zaraki wouldn't be able to do the same against this version of Gerard.

Now, given this, Why didn't Gerard just use his punches if that was enough? He is even much stronger than when he was punching and bleeding Shikai Zaraki.

I get there's no clear statements or feat shown, but we can also use logic and narrative to try to find a better rating than Unknwon:

If Toshirō doesn't scale to Gerard in speed and strength, would be very easy for Gerard to hit him as he did with Zaraki and one shot but:

• Gerard tried to kill him with the shield, failed. -Striking strenght, useless.
• Tried to use the Hoffung which is only for worthy opponents -Failed (debated to be AP/Hax, but Gerard didn't know, he is simply going by the SP he feel)
• Then he did pull up the Quincy Bow, new torrent of power to crush him, that never thought to use against Zaraki -Still was not enough, (tho he thought it was needed to kill Toshiro)
• Tried to grab him and crush to death -Toshiro wasn't actually scared, neither bleed, and didn't turn into a meat ball.

End result, the strongest version of Gerard counld't reliable kill or damage or bleed Toshiro.

Additionally, Zanpakutō powers are directly related to the user’s spiritual pressure. While it's difficult to quantify a 1:1 comparison, it can't be ignored that Tōshirō managed to affect and bypass Hoffnung, and even froze and shattered the energy-based bow Gerard created. While it's true that Tōshirō's Zanpakutō has nullification abilities, Tokinada has clearly stated that a Zanpakutō’s effects and capabilities are intrinsically tied to the spiritual pressure of its wielder.
Taking into account the Gerard, Toshiro fought was even adapted to the strength and speed of Bankai Zaraki, I think it's more than fair back-scaling him to value of Shikai Zaraki rather than going by an Unknown rating.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Disagree. On top of the arguments disagreeing that were already presented, for one, Toshiro cutting the blade in 2 and then it freezing as a result of being cut or freezing it as it’s being cut is more likely than him freezing it before and then cutting it. We gotta wait for the anime fkr clarification

But either way, let’s say Toshiro froze it before he cut it. That would just mean Vollstandig Gerard with Miracle Amps from Bankai Kenny would be swinging a massive sword shaped block of ice with his same physical strength/AP and Toshiro with a one handed swing cut it while feeling no repercussions from the actual kinetic energy of the swing. Aka…physically overpowering Gerard in that exchange anyways.

Then there’s him keeping up with Gerard’s speed, not taking any damage from Gerard grabbing and trying to crush him, and his ice which is a conduit of his spiritual energy which in turn affects his stats (Toshiro is one of the few characters who’s Bankai amps his stats across the board and not just his element or a specific set of stats), was able to overpower the physical force of Gerard’s shield throw and overpower the Miracle’s resistance to ice/elemental attacks and freeze Gerard to the core without any build up or charge time.

Which is notable because it’s Toshiro’s special prepped attacks that scale far above his normal AP, not his regular instant ice attacks

 

[Deceived3596]

I agree with everyone else who has commented recently. We have enough evidence to say that Toshiro is around these characters in terms of strength and energy output, even disregarding the fact his ability works by cancelling out abilities or freezing matter to the point of motionlessness.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I will reply later today. I might've forgotten to reply after I woke up (in europe right now), but I will respond to all the arguments made here.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Disagree, even if the sword was frozen, this only nullified its powers, not the durability

In the context of Bleach, Gerard's sword durability stems from his powers. He doesn't magically have a sword with f*cking 4-A durability because of material tensile strength. If this was the case, it would have a fixed level of strength, but it is clearly enhanced by the miracle. Because of this, we must assume the power is given to it by virtue of Gerard's spiritual pressure / quincy particle manipulation / the miracle / whatever he uses.

Unlike rukia's bankai, we don't know the temperature of toshiro's ice and this plays a crucial role in the easiness of breaking the sword

Wrong, because Toshiro's bankai doesn't power nullify because of the temperature. It's his adult bankai having a specific power nullification quality to it. There's a reason they say this for Toshiro and not for Rukia.

Rukia's special ice power -> absolute zero
Toshiro's special ice power -> power null ice

Toshiro is able to break the sword with such ease because he froze it and it cracked like Mr. Freeze (maybe partly too) {like when someone freezes something in fiction, so it's super brittle}, or because of absurd beyond Bankai Kenpachi-level power, the most important factor here is clearly the power nullification.

Even more, it is a sword that should be able to cut gerard himself, being more durable than him. Nullifying merely the ability doesn't also nullify the durability

The sword only has durability because of Gerard's power, as previously established. Nullifying Gerard's ability to make it durable removes its durability.

First and foremost, Gerard in his 4A key that just fought and evolved from fighting bankai kenpachi (Also 4A) calls mature toshiro a worthy opponent. Note that at the time he says this, he and mature toshiro hadn't fought yet so he is most likely making the statement from his rekaiku ability to gauge reiatsu power levels meaning toshiro's power level alone was enough to make him a worthy opponent.

Gerard isn't known to be reliable at sensing power levels. Also, the context in which he said this is extremely important.

Here is what actually happened in context:

• Toshiro transformed
• Gerard said "you're a MORE WORTHY OPPONENT than you were A MOMENT AGO" because Toshiro transformed. He didn't praise Toshiro, he spoke pompously like he usually does.

This is very important, because he said more worthy, not worthy in general. Any power or ability increase makes someone "worthier" of fighting Gerard, since they're stronger.

Secondly, toshiro with his ice easily stops and cancels out the force that Gerard's uses in tossing his shield at him (something that would require 4A levels of AP) since there is no reason to believe gerard would hold back his strength/power against toshiro. This should be a blatant 4A feat for toshiro perhaps even more blatant than even when he cuts hoffung.

Freezing something in place is not an AP feat. Ice is a form of hax.

Third, in your arguments, you literally show a scan of toshiro surviving Gerard's attempts to crush him. If he didn't have comparable durability to withstand Gerard's physical AP he would have died or at least been heavily damaged the moment Gerard grabbed him. Yet he was almost unscathed. Also note that Gerard's physicals would also scale to his AP according to his profile and the fact he could damage kenpachi with his hands. And if toshiro's durability is 4A, then his AP would also be 4A via the bleach mechanics on soul reaper power system.

All Gerard did is grab him. He didn't punch him, he try and squish him to death, he simply grabbed. This isn't a feat.

To Address your statement on "where Toshiro explains that his plan is to freeze Gerard first, and then damage him" First off, toshiro doesn't say "damage", he says/implies shred him to pieces something only byakuya can do and Toshiro only says this because of Gerard's ability to evolve from physical damage and toshiro's inability to shred things like byakuya so he has to first freeze gerard to the bone in an attempt to nullify Gerard by sealing him and byakuya to destroy him while the ice holds him in place. That was basically the interpretation of what toshiro meant

Ok, that's still something they need to freeze him to do, which is my argument. Byakuya is still seen as a useful form of help by Toshiro, who would be beyond Yamamoto level. Byakuya is sub-base Aizen level.

I don't think this is a very strong argument, it's clearly shown even in those pages you posted that Hoffnung's damage reflection is not instantaneous, he very well could have cut it and then frozen it in quick succession, nullifying it before the damage was reflected.

This is unlikely. What it seems like to me is the reflection damage being delayed is like the trope of the person who doesn't even realize they're damaged, but I don't want to die on this hill.

The issue here is:
a) the claim that he cut it without freezing it is the more extraordinary claim here, which means it would have to be settled at a partial rating at best
b) we have previous evidence that shows his plan is to freeze Gerard (using power-null ice) and then damage him, so it seems like he's taking advantage of power null to easily shred through something shikai

In short, the most conservative claim here is to say he froze it and then cut it, resulting in at best a partial rating. You can't get a full-on rating from that feat.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

For example, Tōshirō was able to react to and stop the momentum of the strongest Gerard throwing his shield like a weapon. This is significant because Gerard's strikes were able to land an hit and were strong enough to make Shikai Zaraki bleed.

First: reacting to something is purely a speed feat. Secondly, hitting someone and trying to grab someone is different. He didn't try and swat Toshiro away. This would also only be a durability feat.

Tōshirō, on the other hand, was able to react to an even stronger Gerard’s attack and block his momentum as well. Later, Gerard explicitly tried to crush him, yet it wasn’t enough to wound or bleed Tōshirō, whereas a way weaker Gerard had previously damaged Zaraki causing him bleeding as @Specterxxxx pointed out

Gerard's exact words: "I will crush you..." He wasn't necessarily squeezing, while failing to squish him out. We don't know that he was using his "full grip strength" or whatever.

I would add that Gerard wanted to crush Zaraki as well, same words, Gerard thoughts to use both the Hoffungs and even a Quincy bow that is deemed to be a new torrent of power to crush him, beyond mortals (far more than what he tried against a Zaraki that even if underestimated, he still thought to be > Shikai Zaraki)

Hey, please read your scans, it does not say the Quincy bow is a torrent of power beyond mortals here. It specifically says it is "a torrent of power... one whose functions can be comprehended by mortals"

The bow can be comprehended by mortals because it's just a strong bow. Hoffnung is abusing the miracle's shenanigans. Read your scans please.

Now, given this, Why didn't Gerard just use his punches if that was enough? He is even much stronger than when he was punching and bleeding Shikai Zaraki.

He'd just gotten his thing frozen and messed up? He does't wanna get his hands frozen, so he uses a ranged attack?

If Toshirō doesn't scale to Gerard in speed and strength, would be very easy for Gerard to hit him as he did with Zaraki and one shot but:

This is an AP argument

Additionally, Zanpakutō powers are directly related to the user’s spiritual pressure. While it's difficult to quantify a 1:1 comparison, it can't be ignored that Tōshirō managed to affect and bypass Hoffnung, and even froze and shattered the energy-based bow Gerard created. While it's true that Tōshirō's Zanpakutō has nullification abilities, Tokinada has clearly stated that a Zanpakutō’s effects and capabilities are intrinsically tied to the spiritual pressure of its wielder.

the potency of abilities here doesn't matter. It's not always the case for abilities in this manner. Also it wouldn't ensure insane AP.

Disagree. On top of the arguments disagreeing that were already presented, for one, Toshiro cutting the blade in 2 and then it freezing as a result of being cut or freezing it as it’s being cut is more likely than him freezing it before and then cutting it. We gotta wait for the anime fkr clarification

sure, but currently it's an extraordinary claim.

Then there’s him keeping up with Gerard’s speed, not taking any damage from Gerard grabbing and trying to crush him, and his ice which is a conduit of his spiritual energy which in turn affects his stats (Toshiro is one of the few characters who’s Bankai amps his stats across the board and not just his element or a specific set of stats), was able to overpower the physical force of Gerard’s shield throw and overpower the Miracle’s resistance to ice/elemental attacks and freeze Gerard to the core without any build up or charge time.

Youichi exists, speed mains exist, so this isn't the best argument here. We know there is some correlation, sometimes. Not always though.

I agree with everyone else who has commented recently. We have enough evidence to say that Toshiro is around these characters in terms of strength and energy output, even disregarding the fact his ability works by cancelling out abilities or freezing matter to the point of motionlessness.

Even if I was to concede to adult Toshiro being Shikai Kenpachi level, or even stronger, I don't think this feat is proper inverse scaling, because there isn't enough solid proof to say he can easily cut through hoffnung like this. This is like a one-shot on top of shikai Kenpachi, inverse wise.

Any more arguments?

TLDR:​

At least a partial rating should be in effect, based on the context. There isn't enough proof off this one feat. Also, I'm in a different time zone than the usual, so I might not answer everything as quickly, lol.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Gerard isn't known to be reliable at sensing power levels. Also, the context in which he said this is extremely important.

An Elite sternritter with centuries of experience isn't reliable in sensing power levels? Where is the proof that his rekaiku a fundamental part of souls in bleach was compromised when he made that claim?

Here is what actually happened in context:

• Toshiro transformed
• Gerard said "you're a MORE WORTHY OPPONENT than you were A MOMENT AGO" because Toshiro transformed. He didn't praise Toshiro, he spoke pompously like he usually does.

Gerard wouldn't have made that statement pompously if toshiro's new power wasnt a challenge to him he never did that for anybody else. "like he usually does" he literally didn't praise or think highly of anybody he fought including the vizards who used hollow mask transformations and kenpachi except toshiro in his 4A key.

This is very important, because he said more worthy, not worthy in general. Any power or ability increase makes someone "worthier" of fighting Gerard, since they're stronger.

The main point from that argument as I already addressed with Arc stems from him saying this to toshiro conceeds in him seeing toshiro as a threat. He wouldn't have made that statement if toshiro wasn't on his level of power at least when he didn't say this to other people he fought including zaraki who is 4A.

If toshiro's change wasn't enough to match Gerard, no matter how much stronger he got Gerard would have never made that statement when he didn't for zaraki in shikai.

Freezing something in place is not an AP feat. Ice is a form of hax.

Except it is, the potential energy in toshiro's ice was enough to cancel out the kinetic energy and momentum in Gerard's swing that's a blatant 4A feat. Ice only becomes "hax like" when used in certain contexts but overpowering a clash with ice isn't hax it's blatant AP. This isn't a counter.

All Gerard did is grab him. He didn't punch him, he try and squish him to death, he simply grabbed. This isn't a feat.

No one said he punched him but he slams his palms violently against toshiro (striking feat) before he grabbed him (lifting feat) if toshiro didn't have 4A levels of durability he would have died.

Ok, that's still something they need to freeze him to do, which is my argument.

Toshiro's literal MO is freezing and ice attacks, you are literally implying all toshiro relevant fights wouldn't make him scale to whoever he is fighting because he needs to freeze his opponent? byakuya can't shred him on his own so Gerard still needs to be overpowered and nullified before byakuya does that. I still don't see how this is a counter.

Byakuya is still seen as a useful form of help by Toshiro, who would be beyond Yamamoto level. Byakuya is sub-base Aizen level.

And how is this relevant? The same way urahara saw grimjoww has help against askin? Toshiro's attacks have always been along the lines of freezing and sealing and somehow he scales in those other fights but not this?. This entire point does not counter toshiro being 4A it only shows that toshiro can't destroy gerard on his own (No one could) and would require the help of a pulverizing specialist to make sure Gerard doesn't get back up because he doesn't have that ability on his own.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

An Elite sternritter with centuries of experience isn't reliable in sensing power levels? Where is the proof that his rekaiku a fundamental part of souls in bleach was compromised when he made that claim?

Yeah, he is incredibly pompous, and he didn't even say he was fully worthy or anything like that, he said Gerard was a worthier opponent

Gerard wouldn't have made that statement pompously if toshiro's new power wasnt a challenge to him he never did that for anybody else. "like he usually does" he literally didn't praise or think highly of anybody he fought including the vizards who used hollow mask transformations and kenpachi except toshiro in his 4A key.

Why?

The main point from that argument as I already addressed with Arc stems from him saying this to toshiro conceeds in him seeing toshiro as a threat. He wouldn't have made that statement if toshiro wasn't on his level of power at least when he didn't say this to other people he fought including zaraki who is 4A.

If toshiro's change wasn't enough to match Gerard, no matter how much stronger he got Gerard would have never made that statement when he didn't for zaraki in shikai.

All he saw is Toshiro get some type of power-up, so he said "whatever, you'll be a little better." I don't think this really means much of anything

Except it is, the potential energy in toshiro's ice was enough to cancel out the kinetic energy and momentum in Gerard's swing that's a blatant 4A feat. Ice only becomes "hax like" when used in certain contexts but overpowering a clash with ice isn't hax it's blatant AP. This isn't a counter.

WYM the "potential energy" in Toshiro's ice? He froze something in place. This is energy manipulation at best.

No one said he punched him but he slams his palms violently against toshiro (striking feat) before he grabbed him (lifting feat) if toshiro didn't have 4A levels of durability he would have died.

You can literally see his arm nearly completely extended and his hands closing. The BOP is on you to say it's a full-powered strike.

Toshiro's literal MO is freezing and ice attacks, you are literally implying all toshiro relevant fights wouldn't make him scale to whoever he is fighting because he needs to freeze his opponent? byakuya can't shred him on his own so Gerard still needs to be overpowered and nullified before byakuya does that. I still don't see how this is a counter.

Freezing something isn't a feat of having striking strength at their level. Toshiro can easily freeze Harribel's water, yet she easily destroys him. It could be the same thing here.

 

[Saqphire]

Disagree FRA, this essentially boils down to ”Toshiro used ice therefore it’s unscaleable hax” while completely ignoring the implications within physics that this very wiki uses and how ice within certain contexts including this one can be used to quantify someone’s attack potency

WYM the "potential energy" in Toshiro's ice? He froze something in place. This is energy manipulation at best.

Within physics, energy is usually described in three segments, potential, kinetic and mechanical energy before it resets post-impact. The potential energy is the stored energy in Toshiro’s ice which has the potential (hence the name) to turn into kinetic energy, which is exactly what he did when he literally moved to counter-act Gerards kinetic energy which we already accept as scaling to his AP.

”Energy manipulation” is just a hilarious handwave btw, cuz guess what we quantify non tier 2 AP in? That’s right, it’s in tons/joules which are a form of energy

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Within physics, energy is usually described in three segments, potential, kinetic and mechanical energy before it resets post-impact. The potential energy is the stored energy in Toshiro’s ice which has the potential (hence the name) to turn into kinetic energy, which is exactly what he did when he literally moved to counter-act Gerards kinetic energy which we already accept as scaling to his AP.

I think you don't understand temperature, because ice has a lower level of energy than water. It's cold, hence it's got less energy and less motion in the particles. It wouldn't be in the ice, or else the ice would turn into water; Toshiro would have to extract it or something.

Regardless, this isn't an AP feat.

Everyone is forgetting how we used to scale Toshiro in the FKT arc; High 6-A for freezing Harribel's water attacks. We downgraded him recently there, acknowledging he can freeze her High 6-A water attacks, but gets completely destroyed in terms of physicals.

”Energy manipulation” is just a hilarious handwave btw, cuz guess what we quantify non tier 2 AP in? That’s right, it’s in tons/joules which are a form of energy

We don't have a category for "kinetic energy decreases via freezing." Toshiro can freeze Harribel's water attacks but literally gets obliterated in terms of physicals so there is a clear precedent for this being a possibility.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

I think you don't understand temperature, because ice has a lower level of energy than water. It's cold, hence it's got less energy and less motion in the particles. It wouldn't be in the ice, or else the ice would turn into water; Toshiro would have to extract it or something.

Regardless, this isn't an AP feat.

Everyone is forgetting how we used to scale Toshiro in the FKT arc; High 6-A for freezing Harribel's water attacks. We downgraded him recently there, acknowledging he can freeze her High 6-A water attacks, but gets completely destroyed in terms of physicals.

We don't have a category for "kinetic energy decreases via freezing." Toshiro can freeze Harribel's water attacks but literally gets obliterated in terms of physicals so there is a clear precedent for this being a possibility.

I’m not going through the trouble of making a CRT for it, but I disagreed with that downgrade thread. From the moment after Toshiro used the ice clone, there was never a moment where Halibel overpowered Toshiro with physicals or elemental attacks or out-sped him.

And throughout the entire series, Toshiro’s ice attacks have always scaled to his AP and Durability unless he uses special prepped or charged attacks attacks (like Sennen Hyoro or whatever he was planning to do to god size Gerard in his immature Bankai form) or Tenso Jurin which massively amps his reiatsu in general.

It’s like proposing Yama’s AP wouldn’t scale to Royd because only his fire attacks could hurt him. Or Candice doesn’t scale to her lightning etc.

Toshiro’s ice is directly scaled to his Reiryoku/Spiritual Energy output which in turn scales to his physicals unless using special techniques which hit above his weight class….same rules as 99% of other characters in the series

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

And throughout the entire series, Toshiro’s ice attacks have always scaled to his AP and Durability unless he uses special prepped or charged attacks attacks (like Sennen Hyoro or whatever he was planning to do to god size Gerard in his immature Bankai form) or Tenso Jurin which massively amps his reiatsu in general.

I don't think this is the best argument. Tenso Jurin doesn't massively amp his reiatsu btw, it just gives him control over the sky and it makes everything easier for him

It’s like proposing Yama’s AP wouldn’t scale to Royd because only his fire attacks could hurt him. Or Candice doesn’t scale to her lightning etc.

So close, this is actually how we do things, except we provide reasoning when people scale. Yamamoto has scaling to his fire attacks and survives his own fire.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

@Saqphire is right. Just countering arguments with "energy manipulation" or "hax" is lazy reasoning and misleading, it has nothing do with ice. That's not ice and freezing work at all.
Blocking the KE has nothing to do with nullifying abilities; it is simply a feat of the power of the ice generated by Toshiro. There's no such thing as freezing is an hax, it's like saying burning is an hax, might as well don't scale Yamamoto to his bankai and say it's hax, right? That's not how physics, freezing and Ice works at all, especially in this context where Toshiro need to generate those, with his own Reiryoku/energy.

Additionally, even freezing itself requires energy. Let's say I want to freeze the sun, scientifically, what happens is that you remove energy from it fast enough to freeze it. However, the mechanism of freezing itself, requires energy, and in that case it must be at least equal to the sun’s own energy. For moving objects it’s even worse, since the ice you emit need to have enough potential energy to overcome their KE, and Toshiro just negating metaphysical abilities doesn’t magically mean Toshiro doesn’t have to output energy at all.

It's not like freezing is a spell that doesn't require energy; it does, and it requires a lot.

Toshiro froze and blocked the KE of the shield, scaling to Gerard’s striking. Toshiro blocked and dissipated the energy of the bow, needing enough energy, regardless of whether he negated the abilities of the Hoffnung, even the Hoffnung’s KE was overcome by Toshiro's ice, which is still a strength feat.

Gerard not being able to crush Toshiro with his hands is also proof that Gerard can't go easy on him, and need to put effort to try to damage him and that Gerard is massively stronger than the one that could injure Zaraki.

He even froze Gerard’s whole body to the bone, like inside and out, and he was exhausted. What was needed was that someone, after him, destroyed the chunk of ice.

This also ignoring all the other arguments already proposed...

Still disagree.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Gerard not being able to crush Toshiro with his hands is also proof that Gerard can't go easy on him, and need to put effort to try to damage him and that Gerard is massively stronger than the one that could injure Zaraki.

I already refuted this argument

Toshiro froze and blocked the KE of the shield,

We have examples of Toshiro doing this to stronger opponents

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This gonna sound super lame, but I guarantee you cour 4 will make the scaling more clear if we wanted to wait…

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Toshiro just backhands Gerard off the Royal Palace and freezes The Almighty trust

 

[Jo-Smooth]

I don't think this is the best argument. Tenso Jurin doesn't massively amp his reiatsu btw, it just gives him control over the sky and it makes everything easier for him

When Toshiro used Tenso Jurin, his reiatsu spiked so much that 1.) Halibel could no longer melt his ice with her ability or physically break out of it 2.) Starrk got visibly shocked over Toshiro’s power to the point where he stopped fighting Kyoraku, looked over at Soi Fon’s Bankai explosion which is powerful enough to overpower Respira and then Toshiro’s HH, then asked Kyoraku if his Bankai was as strong as Toshiro’s and 3.) Made Starrk immediately go into Res to try and make Kyoraku use an equal or greater power than what Toshiro just displayed

This is on top of Toshiro saying he never used TJ in Bankai before and waited til his power was dropped down lower from fighting Halibel because he can’t control his power if he uses TJ and Bankai together, which is referring to his level of power output

So close, this is actually how we do things, except we provide reasoning when people scale. Yamamoto has scaling to his fire attacks and survives his own fire.

Toshiro physically shattered and broke his own ice against ShawLong and Cang Du, maybe other times too, and survived Cang Du using his Bankai against him before Yama’s Bankai started melting it

 

[Specterxxxx]

This gonna sound super lame, but I guarantee you cour 4 will make the scaling more clear if we wanted to wait…

Then this thread should be closed, because from what I see here, no one is gonna agree to the arguments proposed by the OP. There is a already more than enough argument for toshiro to scale directly.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m fine pausing the discussion for cour 4, but it’s Eva’s thread

 

[Infinite9Luck]

When Toshiro used Tenso Jurin, his reiatsu spiked so much that 1.) Halibel could no longer melt his ice with her ability or physically break out of it 2.) Starrk got visibly shocked over Toshiro’s power to the point where he stopped fighting Kyoraku, looked over at Soi Fon’s Bankai explosion which is powerful enough to overpower Respira and then Toshiro’s HH, then asked Kyoraku if his Bankai was as strong as Toshiro’s and 3.) Made Starrk immediately go into Res to try and make Kyoraku use an equal or greater power than what Toshiro just displayed

This is on top of Toshiro saying he never used TJ in Bankai before and waited til his power was dropped down lower from fighting Halibel because he can’t control his power if he uses TJ and Bankai together, which is referring to his level of power output

Toshiro physically shattered and broke his own ice against ShawLong and Cang Du, maybe other times too, and survived Cang Du using his Bankai against him before Yama’s Bankai started melting it

100% agree. Good analysis.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

When Toshiro used Tenso Jurin, his reiatsu spiked so much that 1.) Halibel could no longer melt his ice with her ability or physically break out of it 2.) Starrk got visibly shocked over Toshiro’s power to the point where he stopped fighting Kyoraku, looked over at Soi Fon’s Bankai explosion which is powerful enough to overpower Respira and then Toshiro’s HH, then asked Kyoraku if his Bankai was as strong as Toshiro’s and 3.) Made Starrk immediately go into Res to try and make Kyoraku use an equal or greater power than what Toshiro just displayed

did you read the scene? It formed on her own body and it grew to cover her completely at the same time she was noticing.

I wouldn't call this "his reiatsu spiking" because it's likely the wrong terminology for this. He probably put a high amount of spiritual pressure into the attack, so people could feel it was powerful, but it's unknown if his own spiritual pressure increased. An example would be the spiritual pressure in a Gran Rey Cero. It's incredibly high, no doubt, but it's not the user's SP that's increasing when they use it, it's the attack's.

Made Starrk immediately go into Res to try and make Kyoraku use an equal or greater power than what Toshiro just displayed

you misread the scene. He's trying to see Kyoraku's trump card specifically

Toshiro physically shattered and broke his own ice against ShawLong and Cang Du, maybe other times too, and survived Cang Du using his Bankai against him before Yama’s Bankai started melting it

I don't think you can make this connection. Harribel can break through ice that freezes her own powerful attacks

I’m fine pausing the discussion for cour 4, but it’s Eva’s thread

I'm willing to do this too, but I want to see what the mods think first.
(AKA Damage or anyone, please save us)

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, I genuinely don’t understand why this thread was made now when we’re literally going to see this fight in Cour 4, which will take precedence over the manga version.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

(AKA Damage or anyone, please save us)

Screaming for damage, Sukuna-Mahoraga style is so dirty

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Screaming for damage, Sukuna-Mahoraga style is so dirty

I mentioned him in name because he's the only mod to have reacted to any capacity

Yeah, I genuinely don’t understand why this thread was made now when we’re literally going to see this fight in Cour 4, which will take precedence over the manga version.

I guess it was slightly helpful to refresh my knowledge of the series, but I did think it was kind of important to remove this from the scaling we already had. I just personally prefered to see this go before cour 4 (which I'm confident will prove me right)

 

[Johner2133451]

Disagree frb

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I think this thread should be closed, given it is like 8-9 disagreement with no one really in agreement beside the OP...

I just personally prefered to see this go before cour 4 (which I'm confident will prove me right)

It's interesting, because I think it is the opposite! Unless the plot severely changes, every more minutes of anime additional screen, will make Toshiro even more comparable to Gerard than he already is! Guidebooks coming along the way can helps as well.

 

[AppleLord]

After reading OP, I don’t see how this changes Toshiro scaling to Gerard. He never scale to Gerard based on him able to negate Huffnug hax ability.

 

[Qawsedf234]

think this thread should be closed, given it is like 8-9 disagreement with no one really in agreement beside the OP...

You'd need two staff members to disagree afaik.

In my view since there's an updated version of this fight that's going to be shown, its better to just wait for that to come out rather than make adjustments that could have to be undone later on.

 

[Damage3245]

In my view since there's an updated version of this fight that's going to be shown, its better to just wait for that to come out rather than make adjustments that could have to be undone later on.

This is my thoughts on it currently too.