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[Damagecom]

Spoiler

The post has been deleted

 

[Robo432343]

ChatGPT

 

[Huesito88]

ChatGPT

Says the Robot

 

[Excellence616]

Nope

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

If there are no valid counterpoints or evidence to add, I kindly ask everyone to avoid leaving negative or unproductive comments on this thread

Can you avoid leaving negative and unproductive threads on this wiki?
All of this was many times heavily discussed, some of your arguments are brought up literally everytime someone mentions ETSO, we already had 2 or 3 ETSO CRTs just this year. The previous threads had much better CRTs with scans and links much better than this one and even better and more compelling arguments, all of that was rejected. You should have checked previous CRTs to make sure you are not bringing up rejected arguments.

 

[MeiouHades]

Okay so this thread is missing a lot of scans and it is also ignoring a previous calc thread that was made to downgrade the 4-B rating anyway, a continuation of which is going to come sooner or later where the new rating would be discussed, making this thread redundant. This should be closed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

While I still have fundamental issues with the calc and I don't think it's should have been accepted, the ideas themselves are backed by our own standards. When I get off work and have time to write I'll address your questions.

 

[KingTempest]

Umm... I'm pretty sure this calculation already rendered the other calc moot. It just hasn't been updated yet

 

[Qawsedf234]

Umm... I'm pretty sure this calculation already rendered the other calc moot. It just hasn't been updated yet

The argument stopped at the Cell version vs Star version after the timeframe stuff was disputed in the second thread. There wasn't a follow up afterwards so it sorta died there.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The argument stopped at the Cell version vs Star version after the timeframe stuff was disputed in the second thread. There wasn't a follow up afterwards so it sorta died there.

I think we're waiting for Damage (the admin one not the one in this thread lmao) to make a follow up thread.

What's up with people named damage and Naruto downgrades

 

[MrTayman616]

What's up with people named damage and Naruto downgrades

They damage the verse

 

[MeiouHades]

The argument stopped at the Cell version vs Star version after the timeframe stuff was disputed in the second thread. There wasn't a follow up afterwards so it sorta died there.

Damage did a continuation but closed the thread before it reached a conclusion, he has stated plans to redo it better soon

 

[Qawsedf234]

The energy calculation often cited (e.g. ~1.5e+49 J) is built on a stack of assumptions, not verifiable feats. It assumes:

• The ETSO expanded to fill a space equivalent to twice the Earth–Sun distance (300 million km in radius)
• That this "dimension" is comparable in volume to a real-world solar system
• That the orb would’ve destroyed all of it over a 15-year or multi-hour timeframe

However, none of these assumptions are directly supported by the manga or databooks. The size, nature, and energy of the ETSO remain speculative beyond what was shown.

Define directly supported here. Because these points are:

• The ETSB is stated as being able to destroy and remake the dimension per Black Zetsu. In fact he directly calls it "The start of a new space-time" which means the entire area has to be destroyed. This is backed by the databook stating it had the power to destroy and remake the world
• The dimensions contain moons and other stars. Additionally, with the creation of the moon using Hagaromo's chakra, we know that Kaguya's planets is vaguely Earth adjacent
• While not fully canon, the Boruto novel also showcases pocket and alternate dimensions containing explicit stars that give off radiation
• If you accept Kaguya's anime stuff, then she also uses her pocket dimension's moon to use the IT

The evidence presented indicates that the dimensions are large enough to contain Moon-sized objects in orbits, planets that are vaguely Earth-sized, moons in other dimensions have the same properties as Naruto's moon and every other usage of alternate dimensions includes real stars would indicate that the star in Kaguya's realm is also a real star. You'd have to show counter-evidence to all the previous points to prove that they aren't valid for your points to stand.

There is no concrete visual or narrative evidence in the manga that the ETSO ever expanded beyond a localized region — likely city to country scale at most. It was sealed before it could cause any wide-scale destruction, and there is no confirmation that it ever reached planetary or solar system proportions.

This is objectively wrong regarding the narrative. Black Zetsu directly states it will be the start of a new space-time and the databook also states that her dimension was going to be destroyed.

Fictional pocket dimensions often include aesthetic elements like skies or light sources that do not reflect actual astronomical scale. Without explicit confirmation of their size, it's speculative to scale AP based on them.

This is a valid point, and this is why the majority of pocket dimensions aren't used for scaling since we don't know how large or true they are. But as stated in the first point, her planets are Earth-sized, the moons are moon-sized, the dimension is large enough to contain the Moon's orbit, and other alternate dimensions are shown to have true stars. There's enough secondary evidence to conclude that the pocket dimensions contain real celestial objects rather than simulations of those objects.

While it was stated (by Black Zetsu and databook entries) that the ETSO could "erase and reshape the dimension," there is no narrative or visual evidence showing that it actually did so. The orb was stopped relatively early in its expansion, making the destructive potential largely theoretical, not demonstrated.

The narrative is Black Zetsu saying that, and every single character (including those who can sense and estimate energy) believing that statement. Additionally, the databook supports the statement Black Zetsu said. It is theoretical, but all existing evidence points towards it being a valid conclusion in the same ways Black Holes were theoretical at one point before also being proven.

It’s important to remember that:

• Unbacked narrative statements — even from databooks — are not treated as conclusive unless they are supported by in-universe feats.

This is confusing here, since the statement made in the primary material is Black Zetsu saying "This is a start of a new space-time and you're all going to die" and the secondary evidence is saying "This giant orb is capable of destroying and remaking the world Kaguya was on". This is an example of a backed narrative statement from a character.

• Inconsistent or unproven claims are considered unreliable under standard analysis rules.

The ETSB is not inconsistent. No one scales to the full output of the sphere. Now you can argue that character's scaling to that sphere in any capacity is inconsistent or that other moves scaling to a per-second value is inconsistent, but that's a different point to make.

• As per general scaling methodology:

  • Feats > Statements, and consistency is key to valid tiering.

The scaling methodology for VSBW is more along the lines of:

• Does the statement make narrative sense and/or is it logically possible?
• Is it an outlier if taken as true?

A statement is a feat, just one not directly shown. While direct showings will always be preferred, they are not needed for a rating in all circumstances.

• Vegeta saying he can destroy the Earth when he's like 80-120x Piccolo Jr. who's a casual moon buster is an example of a statement making narrative sense and isn't an outlier for their power growth.
• MCU Sentry having the power of a thousand suns is something that makes narrative/logical sense, but is also a scaling outlier at the moment, which is why it's a possible rating at this moment.
• Temari being able to destroy a universe with her fan is an example of a statement that doesn't make narrative sense and is an outlier.

The ETSB is something that does make narrative sense, and the context of the power prevents it from being an outlier

Therefore, elevating Kaguya to Solar System level based solely on interpretive or promotional statements — without feat-level support — risks falling into overreliance on narrative or No Limits Fallacy logic.

So the former is like, confusing to me. Since... the narrative (statements) is what determines a lot of showings. Naruto's rasenshuriken crossing Pain's crater is a purely narrative thing for a timeframe. The five second cooldown is a purely narrative thing. Chakra creation from stamina is a narrative thing.

Like yeah its relying on the narrative. It's a story; they all literally rely on the narrative to exist.

The NLF is being misused as well. Per the site article covering it

No Limits Fallacy (NLF)​

This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

Zetsu saying that the Orb blowing up the planet isn't an NLF. A NLF would be something like: "Zetsu stated that the orb can create a new space-time, so Kaguya should be Low 1-A since she'd be able to make any space-time".

?

The way this is written is similar to AI assistance or AI generation. I will say that if you are using AI to write something, that's completely fine. It just looks bad to a general audience.

Can you avoid leaving negative and unproductive threads on this wiki?

This isn't negative or unproductive in my view. It is unsubstantiated since it doesn't have scans however.

I think we're waiting for Damage (the admin one not the one in this thread lmao) to make a follow up thread.

Well its just mostly dead then

 

[MeiouHades]

Alright so there are a few things that are incorrect or only partially true in the first part of the comment, which are relevant to this thread, so I feel like I should point them out at least:

• The dimensions contain moons and other stars. Additionally, with the creation of the moon using Hagaromo's chakra, we know that Kaguya's planets is vaguely Earth adjacent

If you're referring to the root/genesis dimension, the one that was supposed to be destroyed, then no it isn't actually shown to contain a star. The image of Sasuke wandering that dimension, that's actually the Sand dimension there. The most obvious clue to that is the shinobi jacket seen on the ground. This is the same jacket that Sakura was wearing which Sasuke used to swap places with as you see in the very next image when Sakura loses that jacket, which means the jacket is now in the Sand dimension as shown in your image.

• While not fully canon, the Boruto novel also showcases pocket and alternate dimensions containing explicit stars that give off radiation

So this actually a commonly mistranslated version of this scan. Here is a far better translation that was sourced by @Nierre a while ago, this is important because the place that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were at here, known as Shirenu Sekai, is actually an area inside the actual universe, not an alternate dimension like you stated, which the anime version even outright confirms.

 

[Qawsedf234]

you're referring to the root/genesis dimension, the one that was supposed to be destroyed, then no it isn't actually shown to contain a star.

I wasn't saying that one contained a star (though the wiki assumes it dles), since I'm not sure if that was ever shown. I was using other dimensions to show that they contained real celestial bodies, which is why the other realms were brought up.

place that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were at here, known as Shirenu Sekai, is actually an area inside the actual universe, not an alternate dimension like you stated,

Ah, I was only familiar with the older fan speed translation stuff. My mistake with that one then.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

"ChatGPT please debunk naruto scaling for me"

 

[MeiouHades]

"ChatGPT please debunk naruto scaling for me"

It should unironically be a metric used to test a model's performance like how AIME or Codeforces is used to evaluate their coding and math performance.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Anyways, the current ETSO calc is bunk, it's gonna be changed to something else in the newer revisions, most folks that were involved in the last few ETSO threads are caught up with other stuff so it's kinda put on hold for now (I'm also not free enough to the point where I'd be able to chuck out CRTs otherwise I'd get it changed myself)


and yeah i fully agree with everything Qawsed said minus the Boruto Novel stuff as it's not an alternate dimension, this thread is very poorly made (just like all the other etso threads OP has spammed in the past) this should just be closed since it cannot provide anything that has not been argued millions of times over

 

[MeiouHades]

Marg bar 4-B Naruto

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What we're presenting is just a hypothesis and since there are no specific feats in the manga, why should I provide evidence when the 4-B calculations are baseless hypotheses?

We’re given destruction and recreation statements, we know a specific size, we’ve seen the jutsu happen on screen, we have databooks backing up the premise, we’re also given a good idea of the destruction method, all the things necessary for a calculation, if all you can share is argument from ignorance than that just isn’t an actual refutation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Anime-only scenes are non-canon.

Anime-only scenes vary between non-canon and secondary canon. For the events in the manga we know Kaguya casted the IT without the Moon being around. Meaning she had to use some other large solar object to reflect the light off of, which can be explained with what the anime showed.

It's true that some dimensions in Naruto appear to contain structures resembling stars or planets

You say "some" as to imply that their exist other dimensions with false worlds or celestial objects. Please provide evidence of those worlds.

does not automatically prove a real Earth-sized planet or main-sequence star unless it’s confirmed in the narrative or via consistent physics-based interaction.

Considering every other aspect aligns with physics, such as the planets being large, being able to support orbits and being able to create moons the burden of proof has already been shown. It's now on you to give your own evidence as to way all those things don't count and explain why the shining ball in the void of space isn’t a star.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim

Yes, and that claim has already been made and accepted on the wiki. You are making a counter claim against accepted material, so the burden of proof is now on your end.

But in the absence of such confirmation, assuming all light sources or objects are "real stars" risks falling into a No Limits Fallacy.

That's not what a NLF is.

The existence of planets or moons that appear Earth-sized or Moon-sized within pocket dimensions doesn't necessarily confirm their actual scale or that they're genuine celestial bodies by astrophysical standards

This is proving a negative. The planets have Earth-like gravity in most cases and can support having a literal moon be formed from its existing mass. All evidence points that they're genuine and you've provided nothing but conjecture to say otherwise.

Once again, provide scans or in-universe evidence to suggest that they aren't planetary objects.

Visual size alone is not sufficient unless there’s direct confirmation from the manga, databooks, or author statements that support real physical properties such as mass, gravitational behavior, or stellar radiation.

This really does seem like you're using a Chat engine to help you write because I gave you two scans directly calling Kaguya'a dimensions planets with one being noted for unusually high gravity.

Also... bro did you just imply that the planets don't have mass? The ones that had enough material that you could form a Moon using the same jutsu that made the Earth's Moon? What???

there is no consistent framework or feat-based confirmation proving that the star in Kaguya’s dimension behaves like a real one (e.g., nuclear fusion, scale-relative destruction), then assuming it's real is speculative and risks falling into a No Limits Fallacy.

The former has already been accepted and evidence has been presented. We know stars in Naruto work like they do IRL, we know that Kaguya's planets are real and we know that the dimensions contain real concepts like a space-time continuum. You've shown nothing to imply that aren't real against that evidence.

Also that still isn't a NLF.

Scaling must be grounded in explicit feats or confirmed data, not visual parallels or indirect assumptions.

I feel like you're assuming a different standard of evidence here compared to how the wiki operates. The sources I and others gave ar themselves enough to imply the stars are real and have been accepted a such. You must now prove they aren't real. The standard of evidence for the site has already been surpassed.

Characters can misjudge, exaggerate, or react based on incomplete information.

The character in question is a super-genius who constructed a 1,000 year old plan, the person performing the power has consumed worlds before and the databook directly backs the statement. Your logic here is nonsensical for the situation.

visual or narrative confirmation that the ETSO actually erased or reshaped an entire dimension,

My dude Zetsu literally said she was going to end and create a new space-time continuum. What are you talking about in regards to narrative confirmation. That's one of the most concrete statements you can possibly get.

theoretical statement,

An out of universe source literally stated it was capable of doing so. You're ignoring evidence to push this point.

analysis we still require feats or explicit confirmation to support planet/system-level conclusions

My dude we have a databook literally stating it can blow up and recreate her dimension.

However, the problem is not the math, but the premise: the assumption that the ETSO would expand to solar system-scale within 2 hours lacks solid visual or narrative confirmation.

Completely valid and I agree. I think that logic doesnt work and no-one should scale to the ETSB. But that's not what is being argued here. You're stating the ETSB is not capable of doing something its stated as being capable of by multiple sources.

So far you've provided no textual evidence for your claims and I think you're confused regarding this Wikipedia particular standards of evidence. If you do respond I'd ask to show sources to back your points.

For the thread itself I currently disagree with the proposal, though the current calc is wrong and will be changed at a later point.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

if OP is just gonna copy paste whatever chatgpt replies to him with instead of having actual discussion then I'm not gonna bother with these terrible responses

 

[Qawsedf234]

What proves that ETSO's expansion is bigger than the planets, as stated in the data mentioned in link:

I'm not sure why the calc was made in the way that it was. All I do know is that its been rejected and will be changed to something else. The ETSB will destroy the entire dimension per Zetsu so the conclusion is ultimately the same either way.

What evidence is there that the Naruto anime in the episodes you gave is canon?

It doesn't contradict anything of Kaguya's known backstory and gives a perfectly valid explanation of how she casted the IT when the planet lacked a Moon.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why canon when we have made it clear:

You left out the last sentence

It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Additionally

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material.

The scene of Kaguya using an existing power to open a hole in space to cast the IT is in of itself not a contradiction or misaligned with what the Canon has given us.

 

[MeiouHades]

Not to mention anime and even video game scenes are used as supplemental canon on the site, so debating canonicity is pointless here. This thread, as I said, is redundant.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In the manga, does Kaguya's dimension feature a moon or sun like in the anime?

I posted an example in my first post along with a still from the Boruto anime (Episode 52) that shows these objects. Additionally the colored Manga all shows that these dimensions have sunlight and darkness to them, being they're being illuminated from a single direction

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Not to mention anime and even video game scenes are used as supplemental canon on the site, so debating canonicity is pointless here. This thread, as I said, is redundant.

If that’s the case why not using the video game etsb?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

If that’s the case why not using the video game etsb?

functionality contradictions with manga

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think before we continue

Before we continue you have to provide actually textual evidence supporting your points. So far you've done nothing and actively ignored existing material. The main reason the thread is still open at this point despite universal disagreement is that only one mod has rejected it.

need to know where this image is from

It's on of the ending stills from The Day Naruto Became Hokage showinf what Sasuke was doing at the time.

to our discussion about whether the anime is canon or not.

It doesn't have anything to do with the Naruto anime being canon as that was already covered when I explained our canon page to you. It's a response to you asking about how the manga depicted these worlds so I was showing material that the author would have more direct involvement in.

If the colored manga is done by Viz,

Viz does English translations. Shone Jump does the colorization for Naruto and has released the entire series in color.

manga shows the sun or the moon?

If things have shadows in her dimension, that means there's no omni-present light sources. It comes from one direction, which shows that there's a star in them.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That shot is from the ending scene of the episode "the day naruto became hokage" which was produced alongside the first boruto movie which kishimoto was heavily invovled with for both

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

what do you mean give you a link? I'm not dropping links to piracy sites if that's what you're asking, the episode is included in the bluray for the Boruto Movie

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did Kishimoto or Ikemoto also supervise the Boruto anime?

He's listed in a supervisor role

the specific source of this scan from the manga or a databook

I gave you the source. Its an ending still from that OVA.

 

[Qawsedf234]

However, in the Boruto anime episode 18, which was supervised by Kishimoto, it doesn’t show the same thing

In the scan you gave you're showing a moon and a star behind it. In the anime you just see the star. Those things don't contradict each other.