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Maki Zenin and Sukuna Downgrade

Dalesean027

Dalesean027

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This is pretty simple as the title suggest while going through profiles I noticed Maki and Sukuna had two problematic things that they were being scaled to that don't really work at all so I'm simply suggesting they be removed.

First thing I noticed is that Maki was being scaled to Class M based off of this calc for this feat which brings has a number of problems, for one the Class M feat performed by Chojuro via Earth Manipulation. This is bad all around as The Class M is only Class M due to the acceleration of the mass of rock being raised yet Maki doesn't like push down and physically stop the arms from coming up or anything so there is no reason for this to scale to LS and surprising the reason it is being scaled to LS is because she destroyed part of the arm to escape in a manner that is off screened and can't be assumed to have been done via LS techniques. Really its one thing you want to scale her to the hands potentially crushing her and do her Surface area etc. but like we don't see how she breaks out so this should be axed from her rating for whatever the next best thing for her is.

Secondly now for Sukuna, simply put this calc assumes Sukuna ran straight out of the building and towards Megumi without ever leaving his line of sight, going past him and then surprising Megumi from behind however Sukuna could have just went left or right to break line if sight, and appeared behind Megumi that way? This one gets messy due to that assumption that he ran in a straight line directly at Megumi from head one when we just simply don't see the angle of his travel which means the foundation of the calc is flawed and it should be axed.

Basically both of these calcs should be axed and replaced with whatever the next best feats or scaling is currently
 
bros gonna get outLS'd by John Fartattack soon 😂😂😂😂😂
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Arkenis said:
And I think Sukuna can just scale to Toji being fast enough to keep up with Cursed naoya.
Click to expand...
Is Toji not still considered Maki's equal, who infamously was blitzed very badly by Curse Naoya's top-speed? And then she had her whole sumo match thing to awaken to the fact that she has insane enhanced senses that she can take advantage of, like Toji.
 
Zabazab said:
Is Toji not still considered Maki's equal, who infamously was blitzed very badly by Curse Naoya's top-speed? And then she had her whole sumo match thing to awaken to the fact that she has insane enhanced senses that she can take advantage of, like Toji.
Click to expand...
She became equal after obtaining the senses.
 
Dalesean027 said:
Secondly now for Sukuna, simply put this calc assumes Sukuna ran straight out of the building and towards Megumi without ever leaving his line of sight, going past him and then surprising Megumi from behind however Sukuna could have just went left or right to break line if sight, and appeared behind Megumi that way? This one gets messy due to that assumption that he ran in a straight line directly at Megumi from head one when we just simply don't see the angle of his travel which means the foundation of the calc is flawed and it should be axed.
Click to expand...
Other things look fine but the speed downgrade reasoning is wonky at best to me.

To begin, this is one of the most basic forms of speed blitzing one character moves from one end to another faster than a character can perceive. We see that Sukuna while fighting Megumi is too fast to see him and constantly perceptions blitz him (honestly performs a better feat later in that fight).

Secondly, we know this happens in an instant and is not that Sukuna takes his time to catch up to Megumi as we see the instant that the domain is destroyed (the finger bearer is exercised) Sukuna appears right behind him as Megumi in the same time senses it breaking, with domains being destroyed in fractions of seconds when their users are injurie too much or, as seen with Naoya straight after he is killed it destroyed, Mahito's gets destroyed instantly after sustaining too many/much injuries, or when Dagon is killed by Toji it goes away instantly and fast that Toji and Dagon are still in the same position air even after it was disappeared. With Domains returning the environment back to normal after they are performed or destroyed and we Sukuna is still in the domain (Huge undergrounds tunnel water area) as the the finger bearing is the process of of being exercised (on fire).

Thirdly, Sukuna taking another route or going around elevates the feat to a higher degree, but does so on too many assumptions.

Forthly, not really an argument but just kinda common sense that Sukuna did a pretty basic speed blitz, or at least too me.

tl;dr: The same fraction of a second that the domain disappears Sukuna is behind him, out speeding both his perception and sensing abilities and further continues to blitz showcasing that Sukuna didn't take a contrived route to surprising him and would just make the feat faster but would also add more assumptions

The current calc is a good low ball and the most accurate of the feat.
 
PowerToScale said:
To begin, this is one of the most basic forms of speed blitzing one character moves from one end to another faster than a character can perceive. We see that Sukuna while fighting Megumi is too fast to see him and constantly perceptions blitz him (honestly performs a better feat later in that fight).

Secondly, we know this happens in an instant and is not that Sukuna takes his time to catch up to Megumi as we see the instant that the domain is destroyed (the finger bearer is exercised) Sukuna appears right behind him as Megumi in the same time senses it breaking, with domains being destroyed in fractions of seconds when their users are injurie too much or, as seen with Naoya straight after he is killed it destroyed, Mahito's gets destroyed instantly after sustaining too many/much injuries, or when Dagon is killed by Toji it goes away instantly and fast that Toji and Dagon are still in the same position air even after it was disappeared. With Domains returning the environment back to normal after they are performed or destroyed and we Sukuna is still in the domain (Huge undergrounds tunnel water area) as the the finger bearing is the process of of being exercised (on fire).
Click to expand...
Ignoring this whole spiel because it has nothing to do with the actual calc or why I said it doesn't work

PowerToScale said:
Thirdly, Sukuna taking another route or going around elevates the feat to a higher degree, but does so on too many assumptions.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works and simply put unless you can prove Sukuna ran exactly in a straight line directly at Megumi into his line of sight in this instance then it has to go, if the route he took was even slightly different this whole thing falls apart. The premise of this calc only works if you can prove sukuna ran only where Megumi was facing and ran on the ground directly in a straight line not deviating and stayed the whole time in his line of sight.

The problem is no one can prove that because his travel is literally off screen you can't tell me he didn't come from behind him, above him, from his side or wherever else in this instance hence this calc does not work. It's one thing if he was already looking at Sukuna standing outside of the building with no obstructions and then he was perception blitzed but since we never saw where sukuna came from ya can't prove this calc works its fundamentally flawed and is based on an assumption
 
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Arkenis said:
She became equal after obtaining the senses.
Click to expand...
So then their speed wouldn't comparable to Curse Naoya's top-speed right? I checked the chapters and it didn't say she got faster, it's all about her realizing she can see more than anyone else, just like Toji. It reads that she was aware of all of Naoya's movements and precog'd him, which is why he didn't understand how his superior speed wasn't overwhelming her.
 
Zabazab said:
So then their speed wouldn't comparable to Curse Naoya's top-speed right? I checked the chapters and it didn't say she got faster, it's all about her realizing she can see more than anyone else, just like Toji. It reads that she was aware of all of Naoya's movements and precog'd him, which is why he didn't understand how his superior speed wasn't overwhelming her.
Click to expand...
Nah, she still says Toji would be able to handle everything at that speed.
 
Agree with maki downgrade, disagree with sukuna's speed downgrade for Sir Marvulous's reasoning.
If the downgrade happens anyway like I'm out voted or something, i think 3F Sukuna should downscale from Toji and Completed, fully realized Maki (due to accepted statements of Toji being faster than 3F sukuna) who able to react to and dodge Mach 3 attacks from Cursed Naoya
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
Agree with maki downgrade, disagree with sukuna's speed downgrade for Sir Marvulous's reasoning.
If the downgrade happens anyway like I'm out voted or something, i think 3F Sukuna should downscale from Toji and Completed, fully realized Maki (due to accepted statements of Toji being faster than 3F sukuna) who able to react to and dodge Mach 3 attacks from Cursed Naoya
Click to expand...
The problem there is that there is nothing the to argue here as the Sukuna calc is fundamentally flawed at its core, there is no provable way to say the calc works because you literally do not see his travel the calc literally just assumes his positioning from nothing. You quite literally cannot prove Sukuna came only straight at Megumi and only directly in his line of sight because his start and end are entirely off screen, you could tell me sukuna dropped from orbit to appear behind him and I literally cannot say no he didn't because its not provable either way

You both fail to understand the calc's premise is objectively flawed and assumed a position that's not backed by anything
 
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Zabazab said:
Yeah, just like she avoided & countered Naoya after she started seeing the surfaces of the atmosphere, which she used to precog Naoya. It's all down to their ability to see things no-one else can.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's right. Besides that, Maki's training was done in a much faster time flow and when she comes out, Daido and Kamo are surprised by her growth saying she's changed and gotten older, it's clear she didn't only get new senses. I don't care much for what calc we scale her to, there's several different calcs of her speed for dodging Naoya so whatever gets accepted can just be used to scale 3F Sukuna
 
Dalesean027 said:
Ignoring this whole spiel because it has nothing to do with the actual calc or why I said it doesn't work


That's not how it works and simply put unless you can prove Sukuna ran exactly in a straight line directly at Megumi into his line of sight in this instance then it has to go, if the route he took was even slightly different this whole thing falls apart. The premise of this calc only works if you can prove sukuna ran only where Megumi was facing and ran on the ground directly in a straight line not deviating and stayed the whole time in his line of sight.

The problem is no one can prove that because his travel is literally off screen you can't tell me he didn't come from behind him, above him, from his side or wherever else in this instance hence this calc does not work. It's one thing if he was already looking at Sukuna standing outside of the building with no obstructions and then he was perception blitzed but since we never saw where sukuna came from ya can't prove this calc works its fundamentally flawed and is based on an assumption
Click to expand...
What Megumi is looking at is the building where Sukuna is, and the calc works off the standard assumption used in virtually every speed blitz calc, that the character traveled the most direct, unobstructed path between the two points. You’re arguing that because we can't explicitly prove Sukuna did/didn't travel a direct line to Megumi, the calc is invalid. But by that same logic, you also can't prove he took an extended path, went around trees, dropped from the sky, or came from behind.

The basic, unwritten rule in speed calcs is to apply the most straightforward, logical interpretation of the feat. Unless there’s evidence suggesting an different route, the character is assumed to have taken the most direct path possible, which in this case is from the building Megumi’s looking at to Megumi himself. This is no different from how any other calc is handled in this type of situation. By your logic, 90% of calcs would be invalid since we rarely, if ever, see the exact path taken in a blitz. Your own calc where Turbo Granny’s blitz Seiko assumes that Granny took a direct straight path, however, Granny could easily taken a circular path around Seiko when blitzing her, or when Naruto performs a blitz where his route to the end position is never fully shown as Naruto could have easily gone the long way around.

You’ve also accepted calcs like Naobito blitzing Dagon, where Naobito isn’t even visible in the scene and the distance is calculated based on a reference point he would logically have traveled from. There’s no proof he didn’t take a different route or circle around, yet it’s accepted under the exact same principle this calc uses. In both cases, the character isn’t on-screen during the travel, and the distance is based on a logical reference point they would have had to cover within the feat’s timeframe, making the methodology identical.

What you’re doing here is overcomplicating a straightforward speed feat by introducing endless hypotheticals for a basic speed feat, which would undermine the logic behind nearly every speed blitz calc. this feels like a selectively targeted downgrade attempt rather than a critique of calc method.
 
I subscribe to the interpretation that Megumi was blitzed because he should have sensed Sukuna coming just like he sensed the domain disappearing from that distance

And wouldn't going through longer distances inflate the calc?
 
PowerToScale said:
You’re arguing that because we can't explicitly prove Sukuna did/didn't travel a direct line to Megumi, the calc is invalid. But by that same logic, you also can't prove he took an extended path, went around trees, dropped from the sky, or came from behind.
Click to expand...
Yes that's the entire point I'm making and I've said that in every single post that anyone can say anything about where he came from because both his start and end are all off screen and when we see him he's talking behind megumi.

PowerToScale said:
What Megumi is looking at is the building where Sukuna is, and the calc works off the standard assumption used in virtually every speed blitz calc, that the character traveled the most direct, unobstructed path between the two points.
Click to expand...
Dawg the entire thing is obstructed and never at any point was in Megumi's line of site to begin with as there is quite literally like a 2 meter tall brick wall and a metal gate obstructing the view of the prison, on top of that there are trees and brush on both sides and behind the brick wall of the prison, we can't even directly see its entrace. Do you get the problem you're saying take the simplest unobstructed route but you're literally usung somewhere Megumi can't even see anyways and assuming a random distance traveled and since we don't even know Sukuna's position, if you actually cared to do this right the calc would be using the distance from the gate to Megumi but it instead uses the outdoors far side of a building that's already obstructed somewhat like literally Megumi can't even see the entrance to begin with yet you're using that for the blitz when the only unobstructed path is the gate onwards where if someone were to blitz him from straight on they'd have at least been in his direct line of sight from start to finish


PowerToScale said:
Your own calc where Turbo Granny’s blitz Seiko assumes that Granny took a direct straight path, however, Granny could easily taken a circular path around Seiko when blitzing her
Click to expand...
Im brother Turbo granny literally does not take a direct path straight at seiko but since we at least actually see her start and end positions I can calc a minimum distance travelled (the spot directly behind seiko has a trap in place that activates when turbo granny actually gets straight behind her as seiko knew she'd be perception blitzed)
PowerToScale said:
Naruto performs a blitz where his route to the end position is never fully shown as Naruto could have easily gone the long way around
Click to expand...
We see the direction and momentum of his kick, had he kicked from a different direction then Mizuki would be knocked a different direction? What lol
PowerToScale said:
You’ve also accepted calcs like Naobito blitzing Dagon,
Click to expand...
Yeah and guess what this calc uses the unobstructed viewing distance Naobito came from that was actually in dagons line of sight considering the direction we know he took in his attack since right before this he was walking right beside them

We can ping some CGMs if yoy want more opinions


@CloverDragon03 @Damage3245 @DMUA @Flashlight237
 
OjeTheArcher15 said:
And wouldn't going through longer distances inflate the calc?
Click to expand...
Also no one is saying Sukuna is actually coming from a longer distance I'm saying his start and end are both entirely off screen and that's on top of the fact the actual entrance to the prison as well as open area between are all not visible to Megumi due to obstructions inbetween the prison and himself so one shouldn't assume an arbitrary distance because of this which the current calc does using the distance to the far side of the prison to Megumi ignoring that the only area that is actually unobstructed in his view is the distance from the gate and brick wall to himself

Like what's stopping me from saying sukuna ran 20 laps around the prison very quickly before coming at megumi or anything else ridiculous nothing and no one could with any evidence can say he did or did not do so because his travel is entirely off screen and the view of the prison is largely obstructed behind the gate
 
Last edited:
? Who's saying Maki got precog? She literally doesn't at all. Like she's literally reacting to the movement that is present. Not something like "Before Naoya could move a inch".

Maki (internally):
直哉がどう動くか
私の周りの全てが教えてくれる

皆が見えているものが
私には眼鏡なしじゃ見えなかった

真依のおかげでこの肉体になって

眼鏡がなくても呪いが見えるようになった

満足していたんだ
皆と同じになって

Next page:
あの人なら
あの高さも届いた

あの人なら
躊躇せず刀を投擲できていた

あの人なら
あの速度も捌けていた

皆と同じじゃ
駄目なんだ

私にしか見えないもの

あの人にしか見えていなかったものが

あったんだ

Maki's POV as she's internally thinking:
なんてことのない
私達を取り巻く空気にも

温度や密度の違いで
〝面〟が点在していたんだ

Next page:
〝首〟を捉える!!!




English TL:

"Maki (internally):
Everything around me tells me how Naoya moves.
What everyone else could see, I couldn’t see without glasses.
Thanks to Mai, I got this body, and even without glasses, I became able to see curses.
I was satisfied, because I had become the same as everyone else.

If it were that person, he would’ve reached that height.

If it were that person, he would’ve thrown the sword without hesitation.

If it were that person, he would’ve been able to handle that speed too.

Being the same as everyone else—that’s not good enough.
There are things only I can see.
There were things that only that person had been able to see.

Even in the ordinary air that surrounds us, due to differences in temperature and density, “facets” were scattered throughout.
And that “facet”... just needs to be grasped!!!"


Either way we literally see her chilling in air and Naoya moving at mach 3 being like few meters away just for her to like jump when he comes closer, turn around, and continue chilling. Naoya tries it again but misses because she air JUMPS to where he's going (check the lines indicating movement path in the last page in imgur) and then punch him after righting herself properly in air and punch him in the middle (despite him moving)


In summary. There's nothing precog, just way higher five senses (Yuki even pointed this out in post HI arc when she was talking to Geto talking about his five senses and all that which even Toji points out when he talked to Geto after killing Amanai) She got clearly faster from her training and awakening. Maki is clearly way faster than she was before in everything.
 
Btw. The issue with Sukuna calc is distance or whatever right? But we do know that jujutsu sorcerers can literally sense someone by their CE even from afar. Hakari does this with a Sukuna who has lost more than 10F reserves, has unlimited void brain damage, CE output nerf and body control nerf from Yuji's punches, Yuta using Jacob's ladder on him which would screw over his output and control over body more, soul-heart stab wound, loss of one limb and another greatly wounded, etc.

And given that Megumi can sense the finger bearer's inferior DE output just fine, it's surprising that he was unable to surpass Sukuna's way higher CE output (He's going that fast hence why Megumi couldn't sense him UNTIL he was behind him speaking up)
Which could be a form of blitz on its own that way since your CE and others CE are essentially a GPS.
That's why mf's like Toji and Maki are dangerous because you don't have this signal anymore.

Idk if any of this could help with the calc but just putting it out here.
 
Dalesean027 said:
Secondly now for Sukuna, simply put this calc assumes Sukuna ran straight out of the building and towards Megumi without ever leaving his line of sight, going past him and then surprising Megumi from behind however Sukuna could have just went left or right to break line if sight, and appeared behind Megumi that way? This one gets messy due to that assumption that he ran in a straight line directly at Megumi from head one when we just simply don't see the angle of his travel which means the foundation of the calc is flawed and it should be axed.
Click to expand...
The problem with the hypotheticals you're trying to FORCEFULLY make up in order to make the interpretation that he went straight not viable, is that he would have to be facing Megumi. He does neither of these. If anything, it is implied he went past Megumi and continued walking before turning around.

Look carefully.



Going around or anything is impossible to be standing like that way he is. The implication makes it clear he could not have gone around or anything like that, and rather just went past Megumi.
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
The problem with the hypotheticals you're trying to FORCEFULLY make up in order to make the interpretation that he went straight not viable, is that he would have to be facing Megumi. He does neither of these. If anything, it is implied he went past Megumi and continued walking before turning around.

Look carefully.



Going around or anything is impossible to be standing like that way he is. The implication makes it clear he could not have gone around or anything like that, and rather just went past Megumi.
Click to expand...

Dalesean027 said:
Yes that's the entire point I'm making and I've said that in every single post that anyone can say anything about where he came from because both his start and end are all off screen and when we see him he's talking behind megumi.


Dawg the entire thing is obstructed and never at any point was in Megumi's line of site to begin with as there is quite literally like a 2 meter tall brick wall and a metal gate obstructing the view of the prison, on top of that there are trees and brush on both sides and behind the brick wall of the prison, we can't even directly see its entrace. Do you get the problem you're saying take the simplest unobstructed route but you're literally usung somewhere Megumi can't even see anyways and assuming a random distance traveled and since we don't even know Sukuna's position, if you actually cared to do this right the calc would be using the distance from the gate to Megumi but it instead uses the outdoors far side of a building that's already obstructed somewhat like literally Megumi can't even see the entrance to begin with yet you're using that for the blitz when the only unobstructed path is the gate onwards where if someone were to blitz him from straight on they'd have at least been in his direct line of sight from start to finish



Im brother Turbo granny literally does not take a direct path straight at seiko but since we at least actually see her start and end positions I can calc a minimum distance travelled (the spot directly behind seiko has a trap in place that activates when turbo granny actually gets straight behind her as seiko knew she'd be perception blitzed)

We see the direction and momentum of his kick, had he kicked from a different direction then Mizuki would be knocked a different direction? What lol

Yeah and guess what this calc uses the unobstructed viewing distance Naobito came from that was actually in dagons line of sight considering the direction we know he took in his attack since right before this he was walking right beside them

We can ping some CGMs if yoy want more opinions


@CloverDragon03 @Damage3245 @DMUA @Flashlight237
Click to expand...
Dalesean027 said:
Also no one is saying Sukuna is actually coming from a longer distance I'm saying his start and end are both entirely off screen and that's on top of the fact the actual entrance to the prison as well as open area between are all not visible to Megumi due to obstructions inbetween the prison and himself so one shouldn't assume an arbitrary distance because of this which the current calc does using the distance to the far side of the prison to Megumi ignoring that the only area that is actually unobstructed in his view is the distance from the gate and brick wall to himself

Like what's stopping me from saying sukuna ran 20 laps around the prison very quickly before coming at megumi or anything else ridiculous nothing and no one could with any evidence can say he did or did not do so because his travel is entirely off screen and the view of the prison is largely obstructed behind the gate
Click to expand...
Please read past the first post in the OP since there was clearly some discussion

And for like the tenth time I'm not saying sukuna actually went around him that's why reading and comprehension is important
 
Dalesean027 said:
Please read past the first post in the OP since there was clearly some discussion
Click to expand...
I've read it. Although the walls and what not are valid points to bring up in obstructing his vision, the indication that he went around - left or right or whatever isn't true like I pointed out and the most valid interpretation is that he went straightforward like I interpreted.
So the only change I could see is the distance being what Megumi actually sees and what Sukuna has to cross in what Megumi sees. So wouldn't that be calced instead?

Although can't we calc the moment the domain disappeared (pointed out by Megumi) after its death and Sukuna moving after that? Or is that not a valid feat to calc.
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
I've read it. Although the walls and what not are valid points to bring up in obstructing his vision, the indication that he went around - left or right or whatever isn't true like I pointed out and the most valid interpretation is that he went straightforward like I interpreted.
Click to expand...
Point went entirely over your head, no one is actually saying he went a different direction but the calc assumes a distance travelled from an obstructed point of view when we don't see his start or travel at all with Megumi. You can not use somewhere Megumi literally can not see as a starting position for a blitz, it'd be one thing if he was looking directly at Sukuna with nothing blocking his view.
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
So the only change I could see is the distance being what Megumi actually sees and what Sukuna has to cross in what Megumi sees. So wouldn't that be calced instead?
Click to expand...
This would work, it'd basically need to use the distance from the gate to megumi as that's all unobstructed but right behind it there's ofc the gate itself blocking the view and trees and shrub directly blocking his view of the prisons entrance and the area in front
 
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