Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)

[Armorchompy]

Admit it's probably petty --> someone calls you out on it --> it wasn't petty what are you talking about

I said it may "seem" petty, not that it was petty. Now since this spat is pretty pointless I'd appreciate if you could stop wasting our time with it.

But each variation IS described as a different world, which he repeatedly creates in an attempt to appease Mario and Luigi.
These are furthermore described as NEW worlds, so we get to see creation instead, which is honestly more impressive than editing anyways. (Besides, we do still get to see him perform what can be assumed to be minor edits within the dream world itself.)

Could I get a link to a playthrough of this part of the game? Seems fair enough but I'd like to check the context.

I will say that user left the server for confidential reasons I can't state, but I'm gonna find and verify these translations myself --- please bear with me.

Fair enough.

Why did I word it like that... They APPEAR to only be a single room large, but it can be deeper than that. Omnificence created this on a similar topic, to get the idea across.

This blog is not accepted, to my knowledge. While I can already see some issues just by skimming it, unless it is accepted I don't think it's fair to ask me to debate the entire thing to respond to an off-hand mention of it. Regardless none of the counterarguments addressed seem to acknowledge some dreams just being visibly much smaller than a universe.

Pretty much

Alright

You wanted to know how Reclusa uses Glohm for the universe stuff? Because this is how you know Reclusa uses Glohm for the universe stuff.

Alright. In that case, is it actually explained how he makes the dream worlds? Because if he does it by affecting people and putting them to sleep, then their sleep would be what's creating the dreams as per normal, they'd just be warped by the effect he has on their minds.

As DDM said here

I'll respond to that, then.

And yeah, in Reclusa's case, he puts people to sleep to create those artificial dream worlds. And follows the tradition on universes being born every time someone goes to sleep. And they were all destroyed upon Reclusa's defeat; which would be a 2-B stabilization/chain reaction feat minimum.

I still would like scans of all this. The actual showing of them being created and destroyed.

But given Reclusa being the driver of all Glohm, and Glohm as a substance is dark/evil energy that corrupts people while also empowering them. As for the case of turning early game bosses into superbosses, Reclusa can significantly warp and effect his created Dream worlds and thus strong indicator of them translating to solid AP ratings.

This is not a strong indicator at all. The fact that he can do an ED feat and also can amp people through the same material does not draw correlation between the two. To quote the UES page:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1] (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other [2] ... Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

I can see fairly reliable evidence for 1, and nothing for 2 or 3 (And no, "more Glohm grants more poweer" is not sufficient for 3, it expressly needs to be a proportional increase that scales to the creation).

Bowser's rage was indicative of him still getting neg-diffed by Reclusa, and he himself not being in any way amped by bonds. It's already been established that Bowser being pissed off is an amp of sorts in itself. The cannonballs were mentioned to show how these enemies weren't even defeated, and rather stunned.︎

If a barrage of attacks leaves you stunned hard enough that you can't fight back you have probably been indeed defeated, and you have definitely been harmed enough for who did it to scale. And even besides the fact that Bowser's rage definitely does not amp him to 2-C levels, it definitely shouldn't amp his vehicle's firearms.

 

[OrangeFR]

Really quick, are there any spoilers for M&L Brothership in this CRT? I'd like to comment on it but I haven't finished the game.

 

[JPTheGamer]

This blog is not accepted, to my knowledge. While I can already see some issues just by skimming it, unless it is accepted I don't think it's fair to ask me to debate the entire thing to respond to an off-hand mention of it. Regardless none of the counterarguments addressed seem to acknowledge some dreams just being visibly much smaller than a universe.

Well, to be fair, this blog is still a WIP, so I'm updating the info outside of the wiki.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, to be fair, this blog is still a WIP, so I'm updating the info outside of the wiki.

Then I'm fine with waiting but it shouldn't be brought up.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Really quick, are there any spoilers for M&L Brothership in this CRT? I'd like to comment on it but I haven't finished the game.

Yes, especially the final boss fight

 

[OrangeFR]

Yes, especially the final boss fight

okay then

 

[Secimatar]

Agree with DDM

 

[Galactidot]

Yes, especially the final boss fight

Just making sure, CRTs like this one end when a certain amount of votes are cast, right? How many?

 

[JJSliderman]

You need at least 3 admin votes I think?

 

[FinePoint]

You need at least 3 admin votes I think?

3 votes from evaluating staff (thread mod, admin, bureaucrat), including at least one admin for Tier 2+.

 

[Galactidot]

3 votes from evaluating staff (thread mod, admin, bureaucrat), including at least one admin for Tier 2+.

Ahhhh, okay.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Ahhhh, okay.

Should also keep in mind that's generally for 0 votes on the opposition. If there's a disagree, there may need to be more votes, especially at higher level revisions, which I think T2 generally qualifies at. 3-1 might be okay for some CRTs, but idk if it would work for this.

 

[Galactidot]

Should also keep in mind that's generally for 0 votes on the opposition. If there's a disagree, there may need to be more votes, especially at higher level revisions, which I think T2 generally qualifies at. 3-1 might be okay for some CRTs, but idk if it would work for this.

Okay.
Just wondering, how would one get more mods to check this out?

 

[Armorchompy]

You would contact them. Are we considering the debate over?

 

[Galactidot]

You would contact them. Are we considering the debate over?

The issue with this debate is,
It's just that I realized it's going nowhere! I've answered all of your questions, but you just keep asking another question, and some of these are becoming nigh-impossible to answer. I'll try again, but semantics are becoming far too prevalent here.

Playthrough:

Alright. In that case, is it actually explained how he makes the dream worlds? Because if he does it by affecting people and putting them to sleep, then their sleep would be what's creating the dreams as per normal, they'd just be warped by the effect he has on their minds.

How would it be explained how he makes the dream worlds? The dream worlds are actively described as "new", so he's either passively creating them, creating them super quickly, or by some circumstance a completely new dream world pops up coincidentally that Reclusa leads the Bros. into. Which sounds more plausible?

This is not a strong indicator at all. The fact that he can do an ED feat and also can amp people through the same material does not draw correlation between the two. To quote the UES page:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1] (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other [2] ... Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

I can see fairly reliable evidence for 1, and nothing for 2 or 3 (And no, "more Glohm grants more poweer" is not sufficient for 3, it expressly needs to be a proportional increase that scales to the creation).

If a barrage of attacks leaves you stunned hard enough that you can't fight back you have probably been indeed defeated, and you have definitely been harmed enough for who did it to scale. And even besides the fact that Bowser's rage definitely does not amp him to 2-C levels, it definitely shouldn't amp his vehicle's firearms.

This entire section just boils down to the fact than Glohm Pipegunk is stronger than Glohm Goomba, and Goomba is stronger than Seedle:

GPipegunk > Pipegunk > GGoomba > Goomba > Seedle

The Reclusa-based ones simply are more concentrated sources, so:

GPipegunk > Seedlusa > Pipegunk > GGoomba > GSeedle > Goomba > Seedle

Also, the stunning is VERY relevant. Seedlusas need to ACTIVATE their power. If they're caught off-guard, they're very weak.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's just that I realized it's going nowhere! I've answered all of your questions, but you just keep asking another question, and some of these are becoming nigh-impossible to answer. I'll try again, but semantics are becoming far too prevalent here.

If I don't think your answers are convincing I'm not going to just stop posting out of fear of things taking too long. Also I've mainly just been asking for scans, a lot of which still haven't been posted, and pointing out that certain arguments don't fit our standards. These are perfectly legitimate things to ask.

Playthrough:

Did you forget to add the link?

How would it be explained how he makes the dream worlds? The dream worlds are actively described as "new", so he's either passively creating them, creating them super quickly, or by some circumstance a completely new dream world pops up coincidentally that Reclusa leads the Bros. into. Which sounds more plausible?

"New" can just as easily mean "changed" or "remade", it doesn't just mean made from scratch. That's why I wanted to see the context for myself.

This entire section just boils down to the fact than Glohm Pipegunk is stronger than Glohm Goomba, and Goomba is stronger than Seedle:

The fact that certain Glohm users are stronger than others was already taken for granted and is not relevant to proving [2] and [3].

Also, the stunning is VERY relevant. Seedlusas need to ACTIVATE their power. If they're caught off-guard, they're very weak.

Scans?

 

[Galactidot]

If your answers aren't convincing I'm not going to just stop posting out of fear of things taking too long. Also I've mainly just been asking for scans, a lot of which still haven't been posted, and pointing out that certain arguments don't fit our standards. These are perfectly legitimate things to ask.

Fair, if after this you have any previous ones you need, feel free to tell me

Did you forget to add the link?

Yeah lmao

Here

"New" can just as easily mean "changed" or "remade", it doesn't just mean made from scratch. That's why I wanted to see the context for myself.

I guess? But he also says he'll show the Bros. a better world, and the wording really makes it seem like these are new --- trust me, I was looking for him EDITING them with intent, and I only found evidence for creation! But, watch the video and make your own judgement.

The fact that certain Glohm users are stronger than others was already taken for granted and is not relevant to proving [2] and [3].

[2]
Glohm Magikoopas exist, and their magic is boosted as well, if that's what you mean. Before I pull up scans and stuff for a random enemy, lemme make sure this is what "non-physical" means in this context.

[3]
The bosses already used a level of Glohm in their base forms in the form of Spite Bulbs.
Their Glohm FORMS are born from a higher concentration of Glohm. And yes, it's proportionate. They boost proportionately, and
the Pipegunk > Sharpcask > Gobblick "hierarchy" stays intact.

Scans?

Kay. Here's the battle footage.
Need context? The enemy battle description here should tell you what you need to know. If there's anything in it you need explanation of, just ask. The note beneath base Seedlusa is noteworthy.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair, if after this you have any previous ones you need, feel free to tell me

My main one is the "the worlds are shown to be destroyed when Reclusa is", I don't know if that claim is still something we're operating by but if it is I'd like to see it. Similarly if Reclusa creating worlds is actually shown that'd be important.

I guess? But he also says he'll show the Bros. a better world, and the wording really makes it seem like these are new --- trust me, I was looking for him EDITING them with intent, and I only found evidence for creation! But, watch the video and make your own judgement.

Ok, found something that actually fits the doubt I had before. Reclusa forcefully puts people to sleep, right? And this is what's happening to the bros. It seems to me like he's not actually creating them from nothing, he's putting people to sleep and it's their sleep that makes the dreams, he just shapes it by messing with their heads. Is there anything that proves this isn't what's happening? Because honestly I'm getting more convinced of it.

Glohm Magikoopas exist, and their magic is boosted as well, if that's what you mean. Before I pull up scans and stuff for a random enemy, lemme make sure this is what "non-physical" means in this context.

It does, but this is for different non-physical feats, not physicals and magic. Essentially the proof that is being asked in this case is that the universe-warping is consuming a similar amount of energy as Reclusa's magic (or physical, given it is proven that he amps himself with it) attacks. I'd consider [3] satisfied based on the following arguments but there is still the matter of the universal warping actually relating to it, which I don't think there's evidence for.

Kay. Here's the battle footage.
Need context? The enemy battle description here should tell you what you need to know. If there's anything in it you need explanation of, just ask. The note beneath base Seedlusa is noteworthy.

Alright, makes sense. But it isn't the case for the other enemies present in that scene, as far as I can tell?

 

[Galactidot]

My main one is the "the worlds are shown to be destroyed when Reclusa is", I don't know if that claim is still something we're operating by but if it is I'd like to see it. Similarly if Reclusa creating worlds is actually shown that'd be important.

Here

Ok, found something that actually fits the doubt I had before. Reclusa forcefully puts people to sleep, right? And this is what's happening to the bros. It seems to me like he's not actually creating them from nothing, he's putting people to sleep and it's their sleep that makes the dreams, he just shapes it by messing with their heads. Is there anything that proves this isn't what's happening? Because honestly I'm getting more convinced of it.

There are numerous statements of these worlds being new. The Japanese text also implies they're not modifications. There's far more evidence for rather than against creation.

It does, but this is for different non-physical feats, not physicals and magic. Essentially the proof that is being asked in this case is that the universe-warping is consuming a similar amount of energy as Reclusa's magic (or physical, given it is proven that he amps himself with it) attacks. I'd consider [3] satisfied based on the following arguments but there is still the matter of the universal warping actually relating to it, which I don't think there's evidence for.

Hmm, let me look into this one. Will update you later.

Alright, makes sense. But it isn't the case for the other enemies present in that scene, as far as I can tell?

Oh, those guys? They still have Glohm in them, but they don't exactly work the same way. They're still VERY powerful, but...
Looking at the scene again, Bowser fires multiple cannonballs at them. And for some reason, they're COMPLETELY STATIONARY while Bowser fires at them. I'm almost starting to lean towards plot-induced stupidity for both the Bros. AND the enemies. Reclusiffs can fly, and so can Weeping Troopers. As for the Bros...
What's stopping them from pulling out a Bros. attack? At least a Bros. Bomb? (That fire and ice attack they do together) which has been shown to be able to do some incredibly impressive damage.

I know this seems like a cop-out, but looking again, GOD is this scene nonsensical.

 

[Galactidot]

It does, but this is for different non-physical feats, not physicals and magic. Essentially the proof that is being asked in this case is that the universe-warping is consuming a similar amount of energy as Reclusa's magic (or physical, given it is proven that he amps himself with it) attacks.

Hmm, let me look into this one. Will update you later.

This answer is a bit iffy... Applying this to Reclusa is difficult. Why? He moreso IS, or is at least made partly out of, Glohm. We never see him without it, and he only loses his Glohm aura when he's DYING. He never shows any sort of effort difference no matter what he does either. When he dies, the Glohm that currently is visible just vanishes from existence EVERYWHERE as far as we can see.

As for his Attack Potency, he only fights the Bros. However...

This can all make sense and come together if we acknowledge the Bros. are also buffed. They can exchange blows with Reclusa just fine, while poor Bowser has to deal with Reclusa's attacks while he scales lower. Bonds Vs. Glohm. SHUN EVEN ALLUDES TO THIS CONCEPT.

What are we seeing here? Bonds were exactly what the Bros. used to defeat Reclusa, as we established earlier. Reclusa was able to do substantial damage to the Bros. Even while they were as empowered as they could be, but he lost to them in the end.

Yes, Reclusa's attacks scale to bonds, which scale to him, which scale to Glohm.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power [1] (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other [2] ... Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"

Just and FYI, while you are have correct that at least from the surface, I do not quite see reason or at least early on for 2-B stuff to scale to physicals. But I just wanted to explain a common misconception, the 2 and 3 points are less about disqualifiers for a UES and more about the general note that "Just because there is an legit UES, doesn't mean everything is perfectly 1 to 1. And it is important to acknowledge that final attacks that cannot be spammed or often force the user to an exhausted/weakened state after one use and especially suicide attacks do not normally have casual feats downscale. Which creation feats and stabilization feats may have similar standard assumptions to those aforementioned unless there is proof of casual creations, stabilizations, ect. But on to other things that are more in line with supporting the OP.

Though, there is some things I may be mixed but more convincing of the OP. Yeah, Dream worlds/universes being created when people sleep/dream is kind of already a thing and still a bit assumptive to have just been fully created from bits of Glohm. However, as the OP explained, Glohm filling the Dreams to form significant levels of reality warping, and forcing the sleepers into deep sleeps they cannot wake up from would be stronger supporting evidence to support the scale. The main one I want to see is the idea that "All the Glohm Dreams dissipate when Reclusa is defeated." Which I am asking the OP for, though Glohm is mentioned to disappear when Reclusa dies.

I think the strongest indicator to support the OP's claim of stabilization, and possibly creation, should have been bringing up the importance of the Soli-Tree. Soli-Tree is what bloomed all those Glohm flowers that spewed Glohm and put all those people to sleep. And is also the true source of all Glohm by the sound of it, and the final boss form of Reclusa is him merging with the Soli-Tree. And when Mario and Luigi defeat Reclusa, they also completely destroy the Soli-Tree in the process. Think I'll let Galactidot use what I have mentioned to gather sources, Soli-Tree alone should have been an important thing to highlight.

As for some concern on the word "Worlds," we already covered the Dream Worlds example, but something about the "Populations of worlds" was agreed to be vague. But I do think I might have one context, according to the official Japanese webpage, Concordia is described as a "Parallel World" to the Mushroom Kingdom's location and Mario and Luigi got there through an interdimensional portal. Meaning, it's not some random country withing the same planet or some random planet within the same universe, but located within an alternate reality. So we do know of Great Conductor and Reclusa being able to engage in dimensional travel; the former even thinking Mario and Luigi are the "only ones" in the multiverse who can defeat Reclusa as mentioned in the OP

 

[Armorchompy]

Just and FYI, while you are have correct that at least from the surface, I do not quite see reason or at least early on for 2-B stuff to scale to physicals. But I just wanted to explain a common misconception, the 2 and 3 points are less about disqualifiers for a UES and more about the general note that "Just because there is an legit UES, doesn't mean everything is perfectly 1 to 1.

This is not true. These are criteria, as the page itself states, that are necessary to actually use it to scale to a character's other abilities. The page even straight-up says: "In order to qualify for a Non-physical Energy System and do scaling according to it, etc etc." It is mandatory.

Though, there is some things I may be mixed but more convincing of the OP. Yeah, Dream worlds/universes being created when people sleep/dream is kind of already a thing and still a bit assumptive to have just been fully created from bits of Glohm. However, as the OP explained, Glohm filling the Dreams to form significant levels of reality warping, and forcing the sleepers into deep sleeps they cannot wake up from would be stronger supporting evidence to support the scale. The main one I want to see is the idea that "All the Glohm Dreams dissipate when Reclusa is defeated." Which I am asking the OP for, though Glohm is mentioned to disappear when Reclusa dies.

Not really. If people dream when they sleep then dream worlds are going to be made if they're forcefully put asleep, it's not a tier 2 feat to just knock them out. Whether they can wake up or not isn't really a factor.

I think the strongest indicator to support the OP's claim of stabilization, and possibly creation, should have been bringing up the importance of the Soli-Tree. Soli-Tree is what bloomed all those Glohm flowers that spewed Glohm and put all those people to sleep. And is also the true source of all Glohm by the sound of it, and the final boss form of Reclusa is him merging with the Soli-Tree. And when Mario and Luigi defeat Reclusa, they also completely destroy the Soli-Tree in the process. Think I'll let Galactidot use what I have mentioned to gather sources, Soli-Tree alone should have been an important thing to highlight.

Making flowers that put people to sleep isn't a tier 2 feat, outside of the fact that "falling asleep" is a Low 2-C feat for any being in the Mario universe.

 

[Armorchompy]

Here

Those are the flowers being destroyed, and people waking up. That's not the universes being shown to be directly destroyed, if that's even happening it's because the people are waking up.

I'm sorry but I continue to be more and more convinced that Reclusa's dream worlds are created and modified indirectly by putting people to sleep, rather than by creating them from nothing and forcing people into it.

There are numerous statements of these worlds being new. The Japanese text also implies they're not modifications. There's far more evidence for rather than against creation.

Sure, but even then Mario & Luigi are in the sleep flowers. Reclusa could still just be using his sleep manipulation to make them dream again.

Looking at the scene again, Bowser fires multiple cannonballs at them. And for some reason, they're COMPLETELY STATIONARY while Bowser fires at them. I'm almost starting to lean towards plot-induced stupidity for both the Bros. AND the enemies. Reclusiffs can fly, and so can Weeping Troopers. As for the Bros...
What's stopping them from pulling out a Bros. attack? At least a Bros. Bomb? (That fire and ice attack they do together) which has been shown to be able to do some incredibly impressive damage.

I dunno, the implication is pretty clearly that those are too many enemies for them to beat. I'm sure they were going to try fighting back, but they definitely didn't think it was going to be enough. The fact that the characters aren't behaving perfectly logically doesn't mean the purpose of the scene is invalid.

If it's ok with you, I'd like to put a pin in the Reclusa Glohm scaling thing to try to figure out if the tier 2 feats are actually legit first.

 

[Galactidot]

Those are the flowers being destroyed, and people waking up. That's not the universes being shown to be directly destroyed, if that's even happening it's because the people are waking up.

I'm sorry but I continue to be more and more convinced that Reclusa's dream worlds are created and modified indirectly by putting people to sleep, rather than by creating them from nothing and forcing people into it.

Sure, but even then Mario & Luigi are in the sleep flowers. Reclusa could still just be using his sleep manipulation to make them dream again.

I dunno, the implication is pretty clearly that those are too many enemies for them to beat. I'm sure they were going to try fighting back, but they definitely didn't think it was going to be enough. The fact that the characters aren't behaving perfectly logically doesn't mean the purpose of the scene is invalid.

If it's ok with you, I'd like to put a pin in the Reclusa Glohm scaling thing to try to figure out if the tier 2 feats are actually legit first.

sigh
alright...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is not true. These are criteria, as the page itself states, that are necessary to actually use it to scale to a character's other abilities. The page even straight-up says: "In order to qualify for a Non-physical Energy System and do scaling according to it, etc etc." It is mandatory.

I am one of the people who basically wrote the main blue prints for the page alongside DontTalkDT. Though I only ever distinguished Semi-Universal from Universal. DontTalkDT was the one who separated Limited from Non-Physical, but even then. You are still talking to one of the 2 main vanguards of the page. But the criteria for each is more about the energy system itself than the skill/practice level of certain individuals.

• Baseline for Limited energy is really any basic level to manipulate energy and not just simply produce it
• Baseline for Non-Physical is at least two or more types supernatural powers (That at least qualify for limited energy systems individually) are merged as part of the same system. For example, Fire and Water/Ice using the same energy system.
• Baseline for Universal energy is similar to Non-Physical in requiring to or more powers effected, but instead of "2 Powers that aren't Superhuman physical characteristics being effected" it's superhuman physical characters + at least one supernatural power/ability uses the same connected energy system.

These are all just baselines for each, and that is what I have spoken in the 2022 revision thread that both KLOL and DontTalkDT more or less agreed with. But the page had bits and pieces misunderstanding what was actually proposed, and it appears someone forgot to update those bits and pieces on the reclarifications I made back in 2022. But the existence of "Suicide attacks" doesn't discredit the existence of a UES was something we were all quite blunt about that it's more so specific examples for certain users. Likewise, creation feats or stabilization feats also had more complicated materials that Agnaa mentioned on the same thread. His concerns had less to do with "Cannot be assumed as part of the same energy system" or "Cannot be scaled to physicals no matter what." He was openminded they could in some cases, but that "It shouldn't be a standard assumption that creation is done casually or with small portions of the UES" and more or less agreed that the default is to treat creation or stabilization of cosmic scale structures in the same standard assumption as suicide attacks or "final attacks that consist of dumping all your energy/endurance into one attack" situations.

But perhaps Agnaa's concerns weren't quite added to the page when they really should have. And looking back, I do notice the page in general is unfinished in a lot of regards given how common it is for people to interpret the exact opposite of what we all have completely proposed back in 2022. The three levels of Limited, Non-Physical, and Universal are overall distinguished well as three types, but almost everyone who reads it kind of ignores the previous two levels and only ever looks at the "Universal examples" then quickly goes to "Not even an energy system at all not even limited" the moment they claim a lack for full on Universal criteria. Energy systems within energy systems are another side topic I should bring up in another staff discussion (Won't be adding more levels of the agreed three, but more so has to do with the existence of multiple energy systems within a verse, the fact that some verses have an official universal but consists of multiple limited energy systems + one that's almost universal but kind of limited. Subordinate energy systems are a different of worms and can vary from limited to universal individually but merged to form a universal energy system [Or even more Universal if at least one of them was already]. Likewise, some verses that already have Universal Energy Systems have basically better versions of the same already accepted UES where it consistently has more raw power + other abilities not included in the main one). But I am saving that all for a staff thread.

If it's ok with you, I'd like to put a pin in the Reclusa Glohm scaling thing to try to figure out if the tier 2 feats are actually legit first.

I kind of agree with this part and sort of agree with some things mentioned. Dream World creations are just Tier 2 chain reactions that happen whenever people sleep. But Reclusa having Multiversal range via dimensional travel + corruption. Do not think there would be contentions there at least. Though on topic, I agree there isn't much grounds for creation feats evidence, but fyi. Dream Worlds in general do NOT erase the moment characters wake up, they are still worlds that can be traveled to via Dream Depot, dimensional travel, ect. If the OP is correct that the Corrupted Nightmares caused by Glohm being used as sleeping gas are erased by the destruction of the Soli-Tree. That's probably the only thing here that could justify the existence of a full on 2-B feat. My last question for the OP is, do we have proof that this is exactly what happens?

 

[Starsprite53]

Hold on, so do we all should assume that thousands of people suddenly decided to dream sweet dreams that keeps them not wanting to wake up, ignoring the statements about that Tree creating them?
Imma make some points about that, tho Armor is a bit kinda right because some arguments here aren't well elaborated or lack better evidence. (They're still alright tho)

 

[Armorchompy]

Hold on, so do we all should assume that thousands of people suddenly decided to dream sweet dreams that keeps them not wanting to wake up, ignoring the statements about that Tree creating them?

No, you're not supposed to believe they decided to do that, given that the flowers are there to force them into it. There's clearly some kind of mind/dream hax here, but it's affecting the people's minds and by consequence the dreams, not the dreams directly.

I am one of the people who basically wrote the main blue prints for the page alongside DontTalkDT. Though I only ever distinguished Semi-Universal from Universal. DontTalkDT was the one who separated Limited from Non-Physical, but even then. You are still talking to one of the 2 main vanguards of the page.

I dunno what to say, I can't speak to the intent with which it was made, just what it reads. But what it does read is pretty clear-cut, and in this case (and if I don't misunderstand you seem to agree with this) I don't think there's much evidence for Reclusa's abilities scaling to his AP.

I kind of agree with this part and sort of agree with some things mentioned. Dream World creations are just Tier 2 chain reactions that happen whenever people sleep. But Reclusa having Multiversal range via dimensional travel + corruption.

I'd contest corruption if he's traveling between realms and doing one at a time. But DT yeah.

 

[Galactidot]

If it's ok with you, I'd like to put a pin in the Reclusa Glohm scaling thing to try to figure out if the tier 2 feats are actually legit first.

I kind of agree with this part and sort of agree with some things mentioned. Dream World creations are just Tier 2 chain reactions that happen whenever people sleep. But Reclusa having Multiversal range via dimensional travel + corruption. Do not think there would be contentions there at least. Though on topic, I agree there isn't much grounds for creation feats evidence, but fyi. Dream Worlds in general do NOT erase the moment characters wake up, they are still worlds that can be traveled to via Dream Depot, dimensional travel, ect. If the OP is correct that the Corrupted Nightmares caused by Glohm being used as sleeping gas are erased by the destruction of the Soli-Tree. That's probably the only thing here that could justify the existence of a full on 2-B feat. My last question for the OP is, do we have proof that this is exactly what happens?

In the same cutscene where Reclusa dies, we can see the flowers disintegrate, along with the Glohm inside. We're already stretching the Japanese text a bit if we think Reclusa didn't create the worlds, but if we're gonna be following that, dreams that are SO CORRUPTED that new ones can spawn in during the same sleep, which coincidentally happen to be the victim's greatest wish, would disappear if their power source was taken away.
These dreams shouldn't exactly exist to begin with. Reclusa, at the VERY LEAST, replaced the dream world's SLOT with one of his own, effectively acting as a parasite taking the place of the rightful dream world. Even if we're going off of this lowball idea, he still sustains and creates the dream worlds themselves --- just not the dimension they'd be put in. He built on someone else's land, so to speak. And I STILL believe he made these worlds due to their unique nature.
They have Reclusa written all over them, and they glitch, which an average dream world doesn't do. (I realized he does this outside the dream worlds as well. These glitches seem to signify some sort of "ripping" in space in the dream world, and they might mean he's doing something similar in the real world? Just something interesting I picked up.)

 

[Hypertornado099]

In the same cutscene where Reclusa dies, we can see the flowers disintegrate, along with the Glohm inside.

Is this not a consequence of them waking up?

 

[Galactidot]

Is this not a consequence of them waking up?

Absolutely not. Mario and Luigi wake up, and the flowers don't disintegrate. They jump on them, and they simply retract into the ground. Those dream worlds still exist, as the flowers still exist, as Reclusa still exists.

 

[Armorchompy]

In the same cutscene where Reclusa dies, we can see the flowers disintegrate, along with the Glohm inside. We're already stretching the Japanese text a bit if we think Reclusa didn't create the worlds, but if we're gonna be following that, dreams that are SO CORRUPTED that new ones can spawn in during the same sleep, which coincidentally happen to be the victim's greatest wish, would disappear if their power source was taken away.

This is environmental destruction. The flowers get destroyed, and as a result the universes vanish, but anyone who destroyed the flowers would get that result.

 

[Galactidot]

This is environmental destruction. The flowers get destroyed, and as a result the universes vanish, but anyone who destroyed the flowers would get that result.

No... No it isn't. The Glohm inside the flowers is the cause. And Reclusa's death caused a chain reaction destroying the universes. That are made. With Glohm.

Those flowers literally disintegrated. The ones the Bros. escaped weren't even destroyed, as plants being destroyed in Mario features a puff of smoke at the root.
The ones in question disintegrate along with the Glohm inside. In other words, the Glohm disintegrates, with an effect that NOBODY can "get that result" for.

Reclusa getting ERASED FROM EXISTENCE is the only thing that can do that, AND the only thing that actually erases the worlds.
A weed trimmer-wielding "anyone" cannot do that.

 

[Lou_change]

I am confused if they act so fundamentally different from the normal dream worlds can they scale to normal dream world.

 

[Galactidot]

I am confused if they act so fundamentally different from the normal dream worlds can they scale to normal dream world.

They don't act different, they just have some different appearance quirks. I followed up pointing out he does the glitching IRL too. They aren't that different, there's just some telltale signs.

 

[Lou_change]

They don't act different, they just have some different appearance quirks. I followed up pointing out he does the glitching IRL too. They aren't that different, there's just some telltale signs.

I mean if they are reliant on something maintaining them that is very different from other dreams in mario that don't need to be maintained.

 

[Armorchompy]

No... No it isn't. The Glohm inside the flowers is the cause. And Reclusa's death caused a chain reaction destroying the universes. That are made. With Glohm.

Those flowers literally disintegrated. The ones the Bros. escaped weren't even destroyed, as plants being destroyed in Mario features a puff of smoke at the root.
The ones in question disintegrate along with the Glohm inside. In other words, the Glohm disintegrates, with an effect that NOBODY can "get that result" for.

Reclusa getting ERASED FROM EXISTENCE is the only thing that can do that, AND the only thing that actually erases the worlds.
A weed trimmer-wielding "anyone" cannot do that.

For starters, this is all based on the assumption that the flowers/Glohm being destroyed does the same to the universes, which you've provided no evidence for.

Taking that for granted, you yourself argue that the Glohm is sustaining the universes, which would mean destroying it would be enough to destroy them. If I sabotage a plane's engines it's going to crash, that doesn't mean I scale to blowing it up. Destroying the Glohm may mean destroying the dream universes, but that doesn't make it a tier 2 feat.

Third, you provide zero evidence as to why the Glohm's destruction is somehow exclusive to this chain reaction. You yourself admit the Bros didn't destroy those they left, so there's no reason to assume that. It's a NLF to assume people with the AP to harm them couldn't do the same.

This feat is plain and simple not legitimate.

 

[Galactidot]

For starters, this is all based on the assumption that the flowers/Glohm being destroyed does the same to the universes, which you've provided no evidence for.

Yes, I did provide evidence which you agreed with. You just watered it down to "environmental destruction" for no real reason.

This is environmental destruction. The flowers get destroyed, and as a result the universes vanish, but anyone who destroyed the flowers would get that result.

You claimed anyone that destroyed the flowers would get that result. However, the Glohm would still be intact. The only thing that counters Glohm is bonds, but killing Reclusa removes the source of the problem.

Taking that for granted, you yourself argue that the Glohm is sustaining the universes, which would mean destroying it would be enough to destroy them. If I sabotage a plane's engines it's going to crash, that doesn't mean I scale to blowing it up. Destroying the Glohm may mean destroying the dream universes, but that doesn't make it a tier 2 feat.
Third, you provide zero evidence as to why the Glohm's destruction is somehow exclusive to this chain reaction. You yourself admit the Bros didn't destroy those they left, so there's no reason to assume that. It's a NLF to assume people with the AP to harm them couldn't do the same.
This feat is plain and simple not legitimate.

You know what? Let's roll this back a bit. You ignored and glossed over my main point, and moved on to this stuff. My main point is as follows:

These dreams shouldn't exactly exist to begin with. Reclusa, at the VERY LEAST, replaced the dream world's SLOT with one of his own, effectively acting as a parasite taking the place of the rightful dream world. Even if we're going off of this lowball idea, he still sustains and creates the dream worlds themselves --- just not the dimension they'd be put in. He built on someone else's land, so to speak. And I STILL believe he made these worlds due to their unique nature.
They have Reclusa written all over them, and they glitch, which an average dream world doesn't do. (I realized he does this outside the dream worlds as well. These glitches seem to signify some sort of "ripping" in space in the dream world, and they might mean he's doing something similar in the real world? Just something interesting I picked up.)

To put it simply, the Bros. PULLED the plug, and Reclusa dying BROKE the plug. The dream worlds are accessed from these plugs, like a USB. This replaces and/or modifies the dream the victim would otherwise have with Reclusa's idea. They're loading cfw onto the victim.

If you'd mind rolling this back and continuing from here with actual regard for what I say, I'd appreciate that greatly.

 

[Armorchompy]

You claimed anyone that destroyed the flowers would get that result. However, the Glohm would still be intact. The only thing that counters Glohm is bonds, but killing Reclusa removes the source of the problem.

The flowers don't matter then, if you wanna say it's the Glohm. But the basic argument doesn't really change.

You know what? Let's roll this back a bit. You ignored and glossed over my main point, and moved on to this stuff. My main point is as follows

This "stuff" is separate from the other bit, and a counterpoint of its own. If destroying the Glohm destroys the dreams, then Reclusa's death erasing it would get rid of the universes without actually scaling to them.

These dreams shouldn't exactly exist to begin with. Reclusa, at the VERY LEAST, replaced the dream world's SLOT with one of his own, effectively acting as a parasite taking the place of the rightful dream world. Even if we're going off of this lowball idea, he still sustains and creates the dream worlds themselves --- just not the dimension they'd be put in. He built on someone else's land, so to speak. And I STILL believe he made these worlds due to their unique nature.
They have Reclusa written all over them, and they glitch, which an average dream world doesn't do. (I realized he does this outside the dream worlds as well. These glitches seem to signify some sort of "ripping" in space in the dream world, and they might mean he's doing something similar in the real world? Just something interesting I picked up.)

I dunno what you want me to say, this is conjecture. Dream "slots", and whatever, I don't think this actually holds any weight. I think I made my case clearly enough that there's strong grounds to say the dreams aren't made directly and the same applies to their unmaking.

To put it simply, the Bros. PULLED the plug, and Reclusa dying BROKE the plug. The dream worlds are accessed from these plugs, like a USB. This replaces and/or modifies the dream the victim would otherwise have with Reclusa's idea. They're loading cfw onto the victim.

Your own argument fits my logic. Breaking a plug doesn't mean you scale to its electric output.

 

[Galactidot]

Your own argument fits my logic. Breaking a plug doesn't mean you scale to its electric output.

I was referring to a USB. There is no "electrical output" here. Mario and Luigi unplugged it from the network, Reclusa destroyed the DATA. The SERVER, so to speak. Reclusa is a computer-based entity. Instead of thinking of this in terms of electricity, think of it in terms of megabytes and file storage.

CFW, or custom firmware, is the process of replacing a system's built-in firmware (or operating system) with an alternative one. Likewise, Reclusa is replacing the basic dream "operating system" with one of his own, thus changing the victim's mind to one he can freely create dreams for.

Your logic doesn't seem to acknowledge what a USB is... USBs don't work through electricity OR electric output. You're thinking of this in ways that don't even work. Here is a way that lines up better. This is a server, not a single cable. Kind of like the internet (which, you know, Reclusa is literally a direct metaphor of)

 

[Lou_change]

Given Glohm specifically has the ability to mess with the mind are we sure we should scale what he can do to dream worlds which I believe are partially connected to the mind to his normal capabilities again they are never specifically destroyed with the flowers