Megami Tensei: The 1-A Ratings (again)

[Re5yh]

Bump^2

 

[PhilLemon02]

Because it being spiritual literally has nothing to do with the issue of it being multiplicative. No multiplicative increase in power from a tier lower than 1-A can be 1-A at all, spiritual or otherwise.

For Megami Tensei to be reconciled with 1-A, it has to be established that either magnetite is not strictly multiplicative or that supposedly 1-A characters also draw power from something other than magnetite (or both of those things).

Isn't the countless continuities of the Megaten verse not material planes (they appear material simply because of how central humans are to the function of the cosmology which is why Assiah is the way it is) but instead the byproduct of an unreachable plane of pure thought (Atziluth) that only those that have Type 1 or 2 Understanding have been shown to reach without assistance from an entity that has said Understanding? Magnetite from what I understand is just a spiritual life force energy that is excreted when an individual experiences negative emotions or actions against them (like being killed) that demons can use to augment their own spiritual life force and can even use to make themselves appear physical to humans. Think like the "Loosh" stuff seen talked about in conspiracy and certain spiritual circles (or like Garmonbozia/Cream Corn from the Twin Peaks verse) where (according to the beliefs of those in those circles) it's a typically undetectable energy of some sort that is emitted off living beings when they experience distress or pain that "Non-Physical" beings that are inaccessible by regular physical beings use as sustenance to augment their own forms.

My point is that within Megaten the only entries where we see regular people just casually manipulate MAG by the peculiar circumstances that comes with their world is Metaphor, every other game MAG is something that only those who are trained in spiritual arts, are exceptionally Non-Human/Demonic or using advanced technology that operates outside of conventional understanding can manipulate.

Edit: it's also worth mentioning that Magnetite isn't the only form of spiritual power in Megaten but instead MAG is the most commonly utilized because it can be harvested through violence and other means common in the human world of action (Assiah). Higher beings in Megaten tend to gain their power from belief in the concepts that hold reality as the human characters know it together as relying on base mechanisms to gain power isn't necessary (I'd say the strongest deity we see rely on Magatsuhi entirely to bolster their strength is Ishtar in SMTV's Canon of Creation that uses pylons to funnel power directly to her so she can overpower the Nahobino, Shiva in SMTV only builds up Magatsuhi in Meditation in order to trigger "Rudra Astra", outside of that MAG isn't necessary in order to achieve the feats certain characters like Lucifer or YHVH achieve as they rely on the weight that their names carry). Demons like Primal Satan in the CoV have a similar mode of power to characters like Maruki and Stephen where he derives power directly from "Transcendence" itself which I've come to understand is The Great Reason/The Axiom which is untouchable in the verse afaik (the "You will be able to transcend reason itself" Stephen anti-feat quote is a weird mistranslation that I'm sure will be tossed out when this full revision is completed).

 

[Kairach]

Magnetite from what I understand is just a spiritual life force energy that is excreted when an individual experiences negative emotions or actions against them (like being killed) that demons can use to augment their own spiritual life force and can even use to make themselves appear physical to humans.

Magnetite isn't born from negative thoughts, it comes from human thoughts in general, which are shot out into the universe and become magnetite, or the foundation for a demon's body, or shown in other games to be the foundation for theworld itself.

Violence is just a good way to get it because it allows for stronger human reactions.

Demons like Primal Satan in the CoV have a similar mode of power to characters like Maruki and Stephen where he derives power directly from "Transcendence" itself

Transcendence is more ideological thing than it is a real thing, it's a way of breaking free from the system that has been set within the universe. That is why Satan says that he has been summoned by transcendence, since you offered a bit of Matter Lucifer's essence in his summoning.

Also, Maruki and Stephen really have nothing to do with it, they both actively work within the cycle.

 

[Demifiend]

Transcendence is more ideological thing than it is a real thing, it's a way of breaking free from the system that has been set within the universe. That is why Satan says that he has been summoned by transcendence, since you offered a bit of Matter Lucifer's essence in his summoning.

It is a real thing. "Trascendence" is how the localization translated "事象" ( = events, phenomenon, matter).

 

[Kairach]

It is a real thing. "Trascendence" is how the localization translated "事象" ( = events, phenomenon, matter).

How does this go against anything I said? Names aside, we can understand that Transcendence more likely goes with Freedom, as that is seen as an ideology that has no roots in alignment, and how Transcendence is literally the state of transcending the cycle, aka Freedom from it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How does this go against anything I said? Names aside, we can understand that Transcendence more likely goes with Freedom, as that is seen as an ideology that has no roots in alignment, and how Transcendence is literally the state of transcending the cycle, aka Freedom from it.

Transcendence, or Phenomenon, is not an ideological route. For one, it’s stated that Lucifer became “apart” of it. Unless you think he became apart of an ideal, that’s just a nonsensical interpretation:

終の決戦で創造主を倒した彼は創世の王座には就かず、さらに上位の存在である事象の一部となった。

"After overthrowing the Creator in a decisive battle, rather than ascend to the throne of creation, he would become a part of the phenomenon, a higher form of existence."

Furthermore, this same kanji is used again to describe the cycle of reincarnation.

事象の存在の多くは現世の者に直接手は下さぬだが、救いや教令として\n事象の命を受け顕現する悪魔もいる

“Most entities of the system (事象) do not make direct contact with those of the earthly realm. However, there are also demons that manifest to enact the will of the system (事象).”

故にこのサタンが、汝を審判し事象に代わって汝を測ろう

And again, Satan says he was summoned by this same transcendence. So, with all of this being said, it’s not a route. But that’s the extent of what needs to be discussed on here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Now, I'm not too knowledgeable on magnetite vs observation and human potential, so I want to ask: are observation and human potential derived from magnetite, or are they separate from it to an extent? If they are separate, then magnetite being multiplicative wouldn't necessarily mean that observation or human potential are multiplicative; thus, 1-A would be consistent.

First thing’s first, magnetite comes from Observation / Human Potential, not the other way around.

1-A is necessarily non-multiplicative. It must be "completely discontinuous with lower ones [tiers]" and it must be the case that "no extension or add-ups of things from a lower reality (i.e. No quantitative increases) can measure up to a qualitatively greater plane of existence." OP pointed out the fact that magnetite is "explicitly multiplicative" which blatantly contradicts 1-A irrespective of whether it's spiritual or not. To reconcile magnetite with 1-A, OP would either have to walk back on the claim that magnetite is multiplicative or demonstrate that characters currently ranked 1-A draw their power not just from magnetite, but from something else.

As for this, it’s only multiplicative in Assiah. As mentioned, all of the Tree of Life’s content is the same, just progressively more and more divine and immaterial as you go up. So when Shiva steals Magnetite, he’s stealing it from his native plane of existence (Atziluth) which is already absolutely separated from all prior worlds, unbound by materialism (which is responsible for 1-A), and the template for all material functions exist exists in one of the lower worlds (Yetzirah). Keep in mind, this displacement has to be more than a simple 1+, as all the worlds are already spatially displaced via transcending the last world.

 

[Kairach]

But that’s the extent of what needs to be discussed on here.

I mean we can discuss it somewhere else if you're down for that.

 

[SonicBayo1999]

Unrelated, but are we gonna add any stuff from Vengeance onto the Nahobino's page? Like his new form and moves for example?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Unrelated, but are we gonna add any stuff from Vengeance onto the Nahobino's page? Like his new form and moves for example?

you could better ask this on a supporters wall or discussion thread but stuff isnt being ignored and will be eventually™

 

[Re5yh]

Bump

 

[OrangeFR]

This looks pretty good

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Following

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[SonicBayo1999]

you could better ask this on a supporters wall or discussion thread but stuff isnt being ignored and will be eventually™

Any links to the supporters or discussion thread?

 

[Re5yh]

Bump (The Great Reason needs to be tier 0 after this thread)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bump. This thread is rather obsolete now, but still, rather get it out of the way.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Third Bump

 

[Hydras10thHead]

Milly! Upgrade SMT to H1A and my life is yours

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Consider it done.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Well, say Goodbye to it...

 

[Eseseso]

Well, say Goodbye to it...

?

 

[Huesito88]

?

He's talking about the persons "life" (offering it like Kratos)

 

[Mbpoops]

Gulp

 

[BleedingPeach]

I don't know if Great Reason could be 0 but I genuinely think that it should be High 1-A.