Infinite Universe Mega Man + Speed Upgrade

[TyranoDoom30]

In a guidebook for Mega Man V for the Game Boy, the universe is described as "infinitely vast".

The kanji here, 無限, translates to infinity, and the kanji used for "vast" can also mean "expansive". Infinitely expansive, a clear reference to size.

Because there is no contradiction to this statement, this should mean that the universe (and whatever dimensions scale to it) is infinite in size aka High 3-A

Because of this, the current feat of Sigma's and Techno overwriting data on the Mother Computer should be changed to Infinite in terms of speed, and whoever scales to them also gets Infinite speeds, specially considering how the currently accepted blog treats these worlds as recreations of the main reality. A "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" is also good in case, but i go more for a straight Infinite rating

That's it.

EDIT: Given some of the arguments around the CRT, it is now decided that a possibly/likely Infinite rating will be put if this gets accepted instead of a flatout ranking (Another edit: For now..)

FINAL EDIT: Another statement of infinite universe has been found and is much more explicit. It's now outright Infinite speeds

Admin Votes:

Agreed: FinePoint ("Likely" rating), DarkDragonMedeus ("Likely" rating)

Disagreed:

Neutral:

 

[TheHedgememe]

Do you think there are other statements of Mega Man's universe being infinite in size? Or other examples of infinite speeds in Classic or X?

The one scan alone might work but I think more people would be on board with it if there were more supporting arguments for infinite speeds. I'm all for upgrades tho, I'm very pleased to see the verse finally get buffed.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Do you think there are other statements of Mega Man's universe being infinite in size? Or other examples of infinite speeds in Classic or X?

From what i recall, no. There might be some elsewhere that still have to be found.

I can still see a "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" however

 

[TheHedgememe]

From what i recall, no. There might be some elsewhere that still have to be found.

I can still see a "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" however

I'd accept that tbh. That's a good usage of the "likely" rating.

Let me know if those scans do get found. I'm really invested in these new arguments that have surfaced.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Also, might be interesting to point out, but computers during Classic Era can process infinite amounts of energy, and X Era computers, being far superior to them, being able to contain these infinite sized universes, is also something to be noted. Not sure if this presents futher evidence, however.

 

[DivineAura44]

In a guidebook for Mega Man V for the Game Boy, the universe is described as "infinitely vast".

The kanji here, 無限, translates to infinity, and the kanji used for "vast" can also mean "expansive". Infinitely expansive, a clear reference to size.

Because there is no contradiction to this statement, this should mean that the universe (and whatever dimensions scale to it) is infinite in size aka High 3-A

Because of this, the current feat of Sigma's and Techno overwriting data on the Mother Computer should be changed to Infinite in terms of speed, and whoever scales to them also gets Infinite speeds, specially considering how the currently accepted blog treats these worlds as recreations of the main reality. A "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" is also good in case, but i go more for a straight Infinite rating

That's it.

Expansive can refer to a space in the process of expanding. If it's infinitely expansive, that doesn't mean it's already infinite in size just that it's approaching towards it.

This could be good supporting evidence but for High 3-A, I don't think this evidence can stand alone.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Expansive can refer to a space in the process of expanding. If it's infinitely expansive, that doesn't mean it's already infinite in size just that it's approaching towards it.

This could be good supporting evidence but for High 3-A, I don't think this evidence can stand alone.

We currently accept High 3-A Universe for DB Toei based on statements that are the same types as this one, so i don't see how it's much different outside of statement numbers, which i don't think it means much as long as there is no severe contradiction. Expansive is also usually used to mean straight size rather than potential.

Another valid translation for this statement is "The infinitely extensive universe", which is why the translation in the scan puts it as vast

If course, i knew someone could point this hence i also propose an alternative "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" rating

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[SeijiSetto]

無限に広がる is like as literal as you can get for "infinitely expanding"
無限に is an adverb meaning "infinitely" which modifies the verb coming right after it, which is 広がる, or to expand
something being infinitely expanding would more likely imply it just gets bigger forever, and isn't infinite to begin with

 

[TyranoDoom30]

無限に広がる is like as literal as you can get for "infinitely expanding"

Again, here's what a japanese speaker has to say on the matter.

You're translating it literally, not considering any futher context. Japanese doesn't work with literal translations.

If we accept High 3-A DB Toei Universe, this should be no different.

 

[Robo432343]

don't use other verses as an argument to upgrade this one

 

[TyranoDoom30]

don't use other verses as an argument to upgrade this one

DB doesn't run on any different standards than Mega Man. We are VSBW, not CSAP. This would also be massively double standards if we can accept that but not this.

 

[SeijiSetto]

If we accept High 3-A DB Toei Universe, this should be no different.

i do not know (or really care) about that but if it works on this exact same logic with nothing else then i would also disagree with it lol
what's your point

Again, here's what a japanese speaker has to say on the matter.

okay.
fundamentally i do not see what difference this makes to the argument. the english words "extend", "spread" and "expand" are all extremely similar in meaning, and in a large number of scenarios are able to be swapped out with one another.

You're translating it literally, not considering any futher context. Japanese doesn't work with literal translations.

i know that very well, i'm actively learning the language.
you say i'm "not considering any further context" but the sentence is literally by itself at the top of the page as a title/header. what other context is there to be considered here?
my comment was to bring attention to the fact that, in this scenario, the sentence is about as literal can be.
無限に is an adverb that means infinitely.
広がる here is a VERB. not an adjective meaning "expansive" [though it could be used like that in a different context where there was other information to actually suggest that], a verb meaning expand, spread, extend, whatever your english word of choice is
those together imply it is growing and will continue to forever, but is not actually infinite.
i realize i'm just repeating what i said earlier in more words but that's because that's really all there is to it.

 

[Robo432343]

DB doesn't run on any different standards than Mega Man. We are VSBW, not CSAP. This would also be massively double standards if we can accept that but not this.

"well DB gets away with it why can't this verse?" ahh argument

 

[TyranoDoom30]

i do not know (or really care) about that but if it works on this exact same logic with nothing else then i would also disagree with it lol
what's your point

If we accept that based on those statements that use the same language as this one, then we should also accept this one

okay. fundamentally i do not see what difference this makes to the argument

Actually, it makes a lot if the translation is meant to say straight up infinity rather than just infinitely expanding

my comment was to bring attention to the fact that, in this scenario, the sentence is about as literal can be.

And because. I don't see why the literal translation is the only one valid.

広がる here is a VERB. not an adjective meaning "expansive" [though it could be used like that in a different context where there was other information to actually suggest that], a verb meaning expand, spread, extend, whatever your english word of choice is

This word right here means to strech out overall as an intransitive verb, in line with what the japanese speaker said.

 

[SeijiSetto]

If we accept that based on those statements that use the same language as this one, then we should also accept this one

okay.
again i do not really care about what DB is doing so i am not going to say anything further to this part of your argument because it isn't relevant to me or anything i'm saying
if they're doing the exact same thing i disagree with here, i would also disagree there.

Actually, it makes a lot if the translation is meant to say straight up infinity rather than just infinitely expanding

you have a conclusion in mind ("the universe is infinite") and are working back from there to insist the japanese is saying what you want it to, rather than building a conclusion based on the evidence you have at hand.

This word right here means to strech out overall as an intransitive verb, in line with what the japanese speaker said.

you're using an english dictionary, which will INEVITABLY lose some meaning from the raw japanese simply because of them being different
let me give you a few definitions from the japanese dictionaries i use and rough translations.
①まんなかから、まわりへ向かって広さが大きくなる。広くなる。(To become large and move outwards from dead center. To become wide/vast.)
②ひろびろと、見える。(To appear spacious.)
③はばや面積が大きくなる。(To become large in things like width and volume.)

[a diff dictionary now]
① 面積・範囲・幅が大きくなる。広くなる。(Area/extent/width becoming larger. To become wide/vast.)
② 折り重なっているものや包んであるものがひらく。(To unfold/unpack things either laying piled up or wrapped up.)
③ 広い範囲にゆきわたる。広まる。(To spread/diffuse throughout/over a large range.)

you are taking a single definition and running with it because, again, you have a conclusion you want and are working back from there rather than vice versa.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

okay.
again i do not really care about what DB is doing so i am not going to say anything further to this part of your argument because it isn't relevant to me or anything i'm saying
if they're doing the exact same thing i disagree with here, i would also disagree there.

The thing is that we are a wiki with standards, and as such what may be applied to one verse that isn't much different from the other can also be applied to other verse. You'd have to make a CRT to change that.

you're using an english dictionary, which will INEVITABLY lose some meaning from the raw japanese simply because of them being different

The japanese speaker's words in question seems to agree with what the dictionary (which was made by people who translate japanese stuff) says. So i think it's valid.

Mumbo jumbo

One of these definitions is "To appear spacious.", which is clearly already a defined statement of size, and given it's correlance to the other definitions and what the japanese speaker has to say, it should likely mean that the statement in question is treating the universe as infinite in size from the start.

 

[SeijiSetto]

The japanese speaker's words in question seems to agree with what the dictionary (which was made by people who translate japanese stuff) says. So i think it's valid.

i know where jisho comes from. but in a scenario like this where we're disagreeing on the specific nuance of a word, distilling it to english just isn't gonna cut it because said nuance will be lost in that process.

One of these definitions is "To appear spacious.", which is clearly already a defined statement of size, and given it's correlance to the other definitions and what the japanese speaker has to say, it should likely mean that the statement in question is treating the universe as infinite in size from the start.

okay. i disagree.
i don't have any more to say on the matter.

might be worth keeping a tally of votes in the OP (even if you only want to count evaluating staff <of which i am not>, i do that too cuz they're the only ones whose votes really matter) so you can see how many have voted in favour of what

 

[Ikelaggan]

In a guidebook for Mega Man V for the Game Boy, the universe is described as "infinitely vast".

The kanji here, 無限, translates to infinity, and the kanji used for "vast" can also mean "expansive". Infinitely expansive, a clear reference to size.

Because there is no contradiction to this statement, this should mean that the universe (and whatever dimensions scale to it) is infinite in size aka High 3-A

Because of this, the current feat of Sigma's and Techno overwriting data on the Mother Computer should be changed to Infinite in terms of speed, and whoever scales to them also gets Infinite speeds, specially considering how the currently accepted blog treats these worlds as recreations of the main reality. A "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" is also good in case, but i go more for a straight Infinite rating

That's it.

I personally just take the context of the whole sentence stuckure rather than bit and piece kanji, not a huge Japanese speaker but 無限に広がる宇宙空間 does just say "infinite space" in raw translation.

Also, might be interesting to point out, but computers during Classic Era can process infinite amounts of energy, and X Era computers, being far superior to them, being able to contain these infinite sized universes, is also something to be noted. Not sure if this presents futher evidence, however.

That can possibly scale to classic era robots like ra moon since he's a powerful super computer that scales above modern technology.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

That can possibly scale to classic era robots like ra moon since he's a powerful super computer that scales above modern technology.

I feel like that should be tackled with a separate CRT

 

[SeijiSetto]

i don't have any more to say on the matter.

i lied i have one more
if they explicitly wanted to call it an infinite space i feel like there are easier ways to do that, such as just 無限の宇宙空間
obviously i understand that metaphors and poetic are a thing but still

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Infinitely expanding" can sometimes be a metaphor for "You're traveling and looking for the end, but can never find it" or that "Expanding" refers to observation rather than the physical universe itself. But at the same time, it could also refer to a cosmic inflation universe rather than a literal infinite sized universe.

As for the revision at hand, neutral but leaning towards it being vague overall. And at best, a possibly rating could be warranted.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

"Infinitely expanding" can sometimes be a metaphor for "You're traveling and looking for the end, but can never find it" or that "Expanding" refers to observation rather than the physical universe itself. But at the same time, it could also refer to a cosmic inflation universe rather than a literal infinite sized universe.

As for the revision at hand, neutral but leaning towards it being vague overall. And at best, a possibly rating could be warranted.

As i've said before, i do think a likely rating is a good alternative

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I checked the kanji, it doesn't say expanding. Unless there's some extra context I'm missing.

広がる purely just means to extend out or to spread out. This is in contrast to expanding which implies it's still in the process of such and not truly infinite.

I think it's just playing semantics to assume "well they're similar words and interchangeable" even though the definition makes no note of the word expanding.

If it wasn't clear I agree with this CRT though I am almost certain there must be other statements on the size of the Universe.

 

[MrTayman616]

I agree with it being "Infinitely expanding" rather than it being an infinitely expansive universe.

It's used as "expand" in these situations usually. Rather 無限の空間 would be preferable to say "Infinite Space" etc. Not use 広がる for it.

 

[SeijiSetto]

I checked the kanji, it doesn't say expanding. Unless there's some extra context I'm missing.

広がる purely just means to extend out or to spread out. This is in contrast to expanding which implies it's still in the process of such and not truly infinite.

this is a factually incorrect statement to make, and i proved it up above by giving you multiple different definitions from a Japanese-Japanese dictionary.

let me give you a few definitions from the japanese dictionaries i use and rough translations.
①まんなかから、まわりへ向かって広さが大きくなる。広くなる。(To become large and move outwards from dead center. To become wide/vast.)
②ひろびろと、見える。(To appear spacious.)
③はばや面積が大きくなる。(To become large in things like width and volume.)

[a diff dictionary now]
① 面積・範囲・幅が大きくなる。広くなる。(Area/extent/width becoming larger. To become wide/vast.)
② 折り重なっているものや包んであるものがひらく。(To unfold/unpack things either laying piled up or wrapped up.)
③ 広い範囲にゆきわたる。広まる。(To spread/diffuse throughout/over a large range.)

 

[AlloyAmi]

for however this effects the arument, i got it translated on r/translator

 

[TheHedgememe]

for however this effects the arument, i got it translated on r/translator

Seems like it'd be a "possibly" at best in that case. I agree that it's a little vague but if other scans or arguments for an infinite sized universe come out then it's cut and dry from there.

Logically speaking the Mother Computer reaching these speeds with the added info makes sense.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Which Guidebook is this
Haoh special or Kanpeki Kouryaku

 

[AlloyAmi]

Which Guidebook is this
Haoh special or Kanpeki Kouryaku

Haoh Game Special 14 Rockman World 5 Hisshou Kouryaku Hon​

I am also fine with a "possibly" rating, considering how the other intepretation seems to work as well, and can be made stronger if anything else comes out in the future

 

[HenshinIntervention]

this is a factually incorrect statement to make, and i proved it up above by giving you multiple different definitions from a Japanese-Japanese dictionary.

Your examples don't really impact the overall definition. It's all "wide, vast, spread" which is roughly what I mean even though I admittedly made it sound less nuanced.

Being as vast as infinity or to be as wide as infinity doesn't sound much different from spreading out to infinity. I still think the CRT checks out.

 

[DivineAura44]

We currently accept High 3-A Universe for DB Toei based on statements that are the same types as this one, so i don't see how it's much different outside of statement numbers, which i don't think it means much as long as there is no severe contradiction. Expansive is also usually used to mean straight size rather than potential.

Another valid translation for this statement is "The infinitely extensive universe", which is why the translation in the scan puts it as vast

If course, i knew someone could point this hence i also propose an alternative "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" rating

Anyone who has kept up with 2022 - 2024 DB threads knows this couldn't be farther from the truth. I can show multiple Dragon Ball threads which used infinitely expansive as evidence and were denied. But here's the difference, Dragon Ball has other evidence. You are presenting a SINGULAR piece of evidence for H3-A (one that mind you, doesn't even prove the claim you're making) and comparing it to the mountains of statements in Dragon Ball that fans had to fight years for in order to get it accepted.
If we treated this upgrade like Dragon Ball, this thread would have been closed at its inception. I don't even think you can use guidebooks by themselves to upgrade something in Dragon Ball these days

 

[MrTayman616]

Anyone who has kept up with 2022 - 2024 DB threads knows this couldn't be farther from the truth. I can show multiple Dragon Ball threads which used infinitely expansive as evidence and were denied. But here's the difference, Dragon Ball has other evidence. You are presenting a SINGULAR piece of evidence for H3-A (one that mind you, doesn't even prove the claim you're making) and comparing it to the mountains of statements in Dragon Ball that fans had to fight years for in order to get it accepted.

Could you send me the thread if it's not a bother please? Wanna see the arguments :d

 

[AlloyAmi]

i feel like a case you can make for this is that this game guide has no reason to be talking about the expansion of the universe, and is more likely to refer to the vastness of the universe considering this is a game about traveling into deep interstellar space as described for jupiters stage along with traveling to other planets to deal with the other stardroids as well

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Anyone who has kept up with 2022 - 2024 DB threads knows this couldn't be farther from the truth

Yes it is.

. I can show multiple Dragon Ball threads which used infinitely expansive as evidence and were denied.

Mainly because they were trying to apply it to DBS, not Toei, which has contradictions, unlike Toei.

But here's the difference, Dragon Ball has other evidence.

Most of the evidence are basically the same statement being said over and over. Again, numbers don't matter, content does. There's no contradiction to this statement or any reason to say it's hyperbolic

You are presenting a SINGULAR piece of evidence for H3-A (one that mind you, doesn't even prove the claim you're making)

It is claiming, as I've demonstrated. It's up to you to prove the original japanese guy who wrote this didn't had an infinite universe vision with the statement, alongside proving both a japanese speaker and a translator who are agreeing with me are wrong.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

i feel like a case you can make for this is that this guide has no reason to be talking about the expansion of the universe, and is more likely to refer to the vastness of the universe considering this is a game about traveling into deep interstellar space as described for jupiters stage along with traveing to other planets as well

Oh yeah good point

So overall, a "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" is good

 

[SeijiSetto]

Your examples don't really impact the overall definition. It's all "wide, vast, spread" which is roughly what I mean even though I admittedly made it sound less nuanced.

that's exactly my issue
you said "i checked the kanji and it means PURELY [definition]" which comes across very dishonest when, even looking up example sentences, you can see it's not only like that and is varied in its use, and the fact that i had already tackled someone else saying a similar thing like a handful of posts above.
just read the ongoing discussion in the thread before making a point that someone else has already made before you with nothing new added to it.

Being as vast as infinity or to be as wide as infinity doesn't sound much different from spreading out to infinity. I still think the CRT checks out.

something being infinitely expanding would more likely imply it just gets bigger forever, and isn't infinite to begin with

this is basically my entire argument, to which it would matter.

for the record i don't mind like a possibly or a likely rating or whatever
i just don't think it's solid enough for a flat rating

 

[TyranoDoom30]

for the record i don't mind like a possibly or a likely rating or whatever
i just don't think it's solid enough for a flat rating

Ohhhhhh ok then, then from the looks of it the majority seems to go with a possibiliy/likely rating instead of flat out until we maybe find more information, which i don't mind

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Edited OP

 

[MrTayman616]

for the record i don't mind like a possibly or a likely rating or whatever
i just don't think it's solid enough for a flat rating

I honestly don't think even possibly is fine.

広がる wouldn't be used for this, Just 無限 would be used.

Though if there are anything else for infinite universe, i'd agree. Edit: (Overall, I don't think the line alone implies it, not saying it can't be but that if it alone is enough for possibly etc.)