Invincible (TV Series): Type 2 Immortality for Viltrumites (Spoilers for those who haven't watched the show)

[IvarUHQ]

I totally agree with type 2 immortality, properly respected “Characters with this degree of immortality can survive indefinitely injuries that would otherwise be fatal to a normal person” In the excerpt shown, this kind of injury would kill anyone in the end, it's deadly, but right after, he's up and walking around without a care in the world. and survived without being treated, of course.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I think the entire point of Type 2 immortality is that X organ/bodily construct (that would normally be required to sustain life) is completely irrelevant to survival. Now, I know that sounds extremely obvious, but the implications of that are actually pretty complex.

What I’m trying to say is that, If the organ/bodily system is irrelevant to survival, then, practically speaking we shouldn’t see much difference between X character with or without injury to that bodily construct. Particularly, damage to that bodily construct shouldn’t put them in a near-death state.

Think about “Alive” as something of a spectrum where life and death are the 2 ends of the spectrum. In type 2 immortality, a life-sustaining bodily construct/organ shouldn’t have an effect on where the character lies on that spectrum, because again, it’s completely irrelevant to survival.

I get this is in contrast to:

This type of immortality can have different levels of effectiveness and can be bypassed, for example, by causing extremely severe wounds or the complete destruction of the body or specific parts of it, such as the head, etc.

But it’s this part of the definition that I think should be changed. Like think about it, If type 2 is not needing a life-sustaining system to survive, but if we have a clause that says oh actually it’s still type 2 even if they do eventually end up dying AS LONG as it takes a higher grade of damage, then that does sound like what abstractions was saying in that it’s moreso some kind of glorified stamina feat.

That being said, I do agree with Finepoint on that other point; the “indefinitely” shit does seem like an unrealistically high standard for evidence, and I do think the wording should be altered.

 

[Tahoy49574]

I think the entire point of Type 2 immortality is that X organ/bodily construct (that would normally be required to sustain life) is completely irrelevant to survival. Now, I know that sounds extremely obvious, but the implications of that are actually pretty complex.

What I’m trying to say is that, If the organ/bodily system is irrelevant to survival, then, practically speaking we shouldn’t see much difference between X character with or without injury to that bodily construct. Particularly, damage to that bodily construct shouldn’t put them in a near-death state.

Think about “Alive” as something of a spectrum where life and death are the 2 ends of the spectrum. In type 2 immortality, a life-sustaining bodily construct/organ shouldn’t have an effect on where the character lies on that spectrum, because again, it’s completely irrelevant to survival.

I get this is in contrast to:

But it’s this part of the definition that I think should be changed. Like think about it, If type 2 is not needing a life-sustaining system to survive, but if we have a clause that says oh actually it’s still type 2 even if they do eventually end up dying AS LONG as it takes a higher grade of damage, then that does sound like what abstractions was saying in that it’s moreso some kind of glorified stamina feat.

That being said, I do agree with Finepoint on that other point; the “indefinitely” shit does seem like an unrealistically high standard for evidence, and I do think the wording should be altered.

A thread about that was made days ago but no one looked into it

 

[Catzlaflame]

A thread about that was made days ago but no one looked into it

This thread was on a different part of the definition. The “indefinitely” part, which I agree with Finepoint on. I’m talking about that other part I quoted.

I’ll probably make another staff thread on it considering that: (1) its a pretty distinct point to what that thread mentions (2) that thread isn’t active anymore, and (3) I do not know if FinePoint agrees with me on the point above.

 

[FinePoint]

This thread was on a different part of the definition. The “indefinitely” part, which I agree with Finepoint on. I’m talking about that other part I quoted.

I’ll probably make another staff thread on it considering that: (1) its a pretty distinct point to what that thread mentions (2) that thread isn’t active anymore, and

It was never active. Be the change you want to see in the world.

(3) I do not know if FinePoint agrees with me on the point above.

I left my thoughts on the thread.

Essentially, I think Type 2 immortality probably does need to be more strict in that regard, but that we don't have a good replacement currently.

I think it's simply illogical to say that stamina lets you survive with no medical attention for major organ damage, for example.

 

[Golden_Void]

There are literally people in the military that have survived the conditions outlined in example 1. There are also regular humans that survived >80 and 90% 3rd degree burns. Viltrumites have super healing which easily explains their survivability in these conditions. Mark bashing his face in largely seems to avoid his brain, which is also survivable by human standards.

Disagree with immortality.

 

[FinePoint]

There are literally people in the military that have survived the conditions outlined in example 1. There are also regular humans that survived >80 and 90% 3rd degree burns. Viltrumites have super healing which easily explains their survivability in these conditions. Mark bashing his face in largely seems to avoid his brain, which is also survivable by human standards.

Disagree with immortality.

Well, I'm assuming those people received medical treatment.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well, I'm assuming those people received medical treatment.

Assuming they got to the hospital instantaneously, it would still be several hours if not days before the doctors can bring them back to an acceptable condition. Lucan coming back for Omni-Man was a matter of minutes. This is 100% feasible within the boundaries of human physiology, let alone people who can completely heal almost any injury without scars.

 

[FinePoint]

Assuming they got to the hospital instantaneously, it would still be several hours if not days before the doctors can bring them back to an acceptable condition. Lucan coming back for Omni-Man was a matter of minutes. This is 100% feasible within the boundaries of human physiology, let alone people who can completely heal almost any injury without scars.

Honestly I already agree with you on Lucan.
I actually saw a body-cam where someone survived with their intestines out for a long time recently.

I'm talking about Conquest, though.

 

[Tahoy49574]

I'm talking about Conquest, though.

Conquest is explicitly still alive here and it's not like we can see him healing in real time, Immortality should be fair

 

[Golden_Void]

Honestly I already agree with you on Lucan.
I actually saw a body-cam where someone survived with their intestines out for a long time recently.

I'm talking about Conquest, though.

I assume you're talking about the burns then. Passive healing and super stamina gives Viltrumites quite the leg up, allowing Conquest to completely recover from his damage with no medical intervention. Humans generally cannot regenerate bone/organ damage (which includes skin), which I would classify as a limitation factor for us as opposed to an avenue for immortality. Angstrom Levy could survive getting his arm cut off and his head turned to mush, but he's still biologically human.

 

[Zabazab]

The highest ends of stamina on the wiki let characters fight while decapitated for a limited time.

 

[FinePoint]

The highest ends of stamina on the wiki let characters fight while decapitated for a limited time.

"For a limited time."
"Temporarily."
"So long as an injury remains lethal."

What this thread is struggling with is where we draw the line on temporary, and how/if we can even determine if an injury was truly lethal if enhanced healing is also on the table to any capacity.

That said, I feel like that example doesn't even make sense.
How would stamina let you send signals to parts of your body which aren't even connected any more?
How would it let you survive a lethal injury any longer than a normal person?

To me, we're sort of battling between two extremes. Either the character is classified as some kind of 'immortal' or we dismiss the feat as just stamina or willpower.

To be honest, neither feels fitting here at all. I think we need a new ability that can cover the middle ground.

So until these threads about Immortality vs Stamina are concluded, I'll just completely remove my vote from the equation here.
It's hard for me to advocate for either stance when I feel like there's a lingering fundamental flaw with the system itself.

 

[Golden_Void]

One of the biggest flaws is the assumption that having regeneration automatically qualifies you as immortal if you can heal from something that would kill most people when it simply takes more of said damage to affect the character like a normal person, which is inherently a durability/stamina concept.

Also we have very wide regeneration standards.

Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating damage that would normally leave large dents and openings.

• Examples: The Courier (Fallout), Hercules (Marvel Comics), Batman (Post-Flashpoint) (DC Comics)

High-Low: The ability to regenerate severed fingers, toes, or ears, minor organ damage, and even potentially reattach lost limbs. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating some interior damage, along with some minor critically damaged or destroyed parts.

• Examples: Wally West (DC Comics), Malekith (Warhammer Fantasy), Adam (Neon Genesis Evangelion)

Low-Mid: The ability to regenerate lost limbs, limited brain damage, and even severe organ damage or destruction, including traditionally fatal wounds and disembowelment or horizontal bisection. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating minor parts and more extensive internal damage.

We could classify Lucan's feat as severe organ damage which is classified as low-mid, but literally nothing else about that category applies to Viltrumites. They can't regrow limbs or heal attached eyes, which Conquest is proof of. They haven't been shown to regrow any appendages either. They just heal organs and bones. They are much more consistently in the mid-low tier. Mid tier involves regen from decapitation, but characters like the Immortal don't regenerate from decapitation, he has to get his body put back together which seems like a special case of high-low.

Even if their current low-mid regeneration is the case, the hierarchy of regeneration implies they are capable of all the levels of regeneration below them, which is false.

 

[AThe1412]

We could classify Lucan's feat as severe organ damage which is classified as low-mid, but literally nothing else about that category applies to Viltrumites. They can't regrow limbs or heal attached eyes, which Conquest is proof of. They haven't been shown to regrow any appendages either. They just heal organs and bones. They are much more consistently in the mid-low tier. Mid tier involves regen from decapitation, but characters like the Immortal don't regenerate from decapitation, he has to get his body put back together which seems like a special case of high-low.

Even if their current low-mid regeneration is the case, the hierarchy of regeneration implies they are capable of all the levels of regeneration below them, which is false.

I can tell you haven't read the comics but Conquest lost his eye and arm permanently due to a certain disease that we'll see later on in the show (It's a spoiler obviously. His comic profile already mentions it). Furthermore, didn't Mark heal his hands after they were effectively torn off during their fight?

 

[Golden_Void]

I can tell you haven't read the comics but Conquest lost his eye and arm permanently due to a certain disease that we'll see later on in the show (It's a spoiler obviously. His comic profile already mentions it). Furthermore, didn't Mark heal his hands after they were effectively torn off during their fight?

Mark's hands were still attached, but the bones were broken. Conquest broke his other hand's fingers. He didn't regrow new hands.

And I know its due to some plague, which has to have permanent regeneration negation in the affected areas otherwise it makes no sense that healthy Viltrumites can't regenerate the damage.

 

[Hayato5652]

If immortality Type 2 refers to characters staying alive indefinitely even after near, death conditions, meaning they don’t need to heal or recover from the injury that nearly killed them.
then no...
Viltrumites can't have immortality Type 2.
That would relate more to stamina or endurance.

But if immortality just means surviving after being close to death,
then yes, Viltrumites do have that kind of immortality Type 2

 

[IvarUHQ]

If immortality Type 2 refers to characters staying alive indefinitely even after near, death conditions, meaning they don’t need to heal or recover from the injury that nearly killed them.
then no...
Viltrumites can't have immortality Type 2.
That would relate more to stamina or endurance.

But if immortality just means surviving after being close to death,
then yes, Viltrumites do have that kind of immortality Type 2

survive an attack that normally kills at 100% so yes they have immortality type 2

 

[Hayato5652]

Bump

 

[Hayato5652]

Bump

 

[Cropfist]

Disagree for reasons above