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-Kaneki vs Denji- [8/2/0] - GRACE

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Kaneki (8):
@Foriaa, @Arkenis, @Kavopaco, @LegendariumOfLies, @Tony_di_bugalu, @MintyBoi1, @GodEarh206, @NikHelton
Denji (2): @GunshyFever, @Rez
Incon:
 
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Am I tweaking or did you make 2 of the same match?

 
Am I tweaking or did you make 2 of the same match?

My bad, I probably duplicated this thread due to some mistake by the website or the Internet provider. Is there a way to delete one of them?
 
Kaneki seems to have much better analytical abilities, like being able to read his opponents movements and predicting what they can do for counters. Another thing to mention for Kaneki is his Reactive Evolution and AD which allowed him to one shot someone nearly beating his ass. Whatever power gap exist between the 2 would probably get surpassed in mere seconds minutes by Kaneki. Kaneki also has a major range advantage with his Kagune being able to attack from any direction.


Lastly, Kaneki has around 207,470x's more LS than Denji's measly Class M.


Kaneki should brutalize Denji.
 
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Kaneki seems to have much better analytical abilities, like being able to read his opponents movements and predicting what they can do for counters. Another thing to mention for Kaneki is his Reactive Evolution and AD which allowed him to one shot someone nearly beating his ass. Whatever power gap exist between the 2 would probably get surpassed in mere seconds by Kaneki. Kaneki also has a major range advantage with his Kagune being able to attack from any direction.


Lastly, Kaneki has around 207,470x's more LS than Denji's measly Class M.


Kaneki should brutalize Denji.
You greatly overestimate Kaneki's RE and AD. Even at the end of the story, it took him a few minutes to surpass Furuta and One-shot him.AD will definitely make a difference in this fight, but it will take some time.
 
True, forgot it lasted around 2 chapters, but even so, majority of the panels were just straight hands.
Nevertheless, it is a reactive evolution of its latest form.Without kakuja, it proceeds much more slowly
 
Denji likely wins due to strategy and cunning like I've said in the previous CSM vs TG thread. (So ill bring up a majority of points I brought up there)

Denji has always been perfectly willing to aim for an opponent’s weak points right from the start of a fight, exploiting any injuries without hesitation. His ability in combat has only improved thanks to his special training with Kishibe (which continued weekly in Part 1), a veteran devil hunter skilled enough to briefly keep up with Quanxi, another hunter regarded as strong enough to beat almost anyone in the world in pure h2h combat. Through that training, Denji learned to keep a cool head during battle, stay alert for ways to exploit the environment and to never trust what a "hunter" says. An example being his fight with Katana Man, where he baited him into attacking his head, only to counter with a hidden chainsaw from his leg. This kind of deceptive, dirty play is exactly how Denji fights. He doesn’t fight fair, and he will not fight fair. Denji also has quick thinking and unnatural cleverness in battle have helped him survive situations that should have been impossible: He forced Reze underwater to block her ability to use explosions, set himself on fire to exploit Santa Claus’s weakness to light, tricked the Eternity Devil into begging for death by abusing its pain threshold and even cut into his own brain to fight off the Falling Devil’s mental attack. These are feats of a mind that adapts under pressure and knows how to weaponize both his own body and his surroundings. And more than once, he’s built entire plans from scratch based on whatever information and resources he had at the moment. The best example is the final battle against the Control Devil, where he outsmarted Makima, someone who was canonically untouchable and even Kishibe wondered how the hell he managed to pull it off. Denji caught her completely off-guard by exploiting small details he noticed from their brief interactions, despite his mind being jumbled and unstable at the time. Not only that, but Denji is known to stay calm in high-pressure situations and recall important information even when it seems like he isn’t paying attention at all. Kaneki will be struggling to land serious blows on Denji, because most of the time, Denji’s body reacts on instinct while his mind is formulating plans on the fly. One example I gave above is the Katana Man fight, but Denji’s manipulation and ability to adapt in real time is what is truly notable here.

He has an insane amount of attention to detail, which has been shown repeatedly, from quickly catching Power's contradiction when she tried to trick him, to recalling Asa's speech about starfish when it seemed like he wasn’t even listening. He adapts what he notices into strategic moves fast and even before he even got formal training such as the first example I gave when Denji was aiming for weak points on an opponent, even after training with Kishibe, who again, could keep up with Quanxi, Denji learned to be even more perceptive of his environment and opponents. Because of his quick thinking, dirty fighting style and endurance allow him overcome ridiculous odds time and time again.

Some quick examples (repeating some I gave from above):
Based on examples I gave above, yes his endurance is pretty broken as well, more examples such as: surviving being stabbed through the chest multiple times, enduring being bisected, fighting while heavily injured and even feeling pleasure from wounds inflicted by enemies like Sword Man. His chainsaws shred through his own body like cheese and by extension, they’ll do the same to Kaneki, the LS difference is not significant because the piercing damage of Denji's chainsaws remove any hope of restraint.

Denji primarily wins because of his cunning, ruthlessness and combat adaptability and he should take this due to the sheer difference in practical fighting experience. So I'm going with Denji for now.
 
Denji primarily wins because of his cunning, ruthlessness and combat adaptability and he should take this due to the sheer difference in practical fighting experience. So I'm going with Denji for now.
Considering both have similar regen, how does Denji deal with Kaneki's AD and the ability to attack from several angles simultaneously?
 
Considering both have similar regen, how does Denji deal with Kaneki's AD and the ability to attack from several angles simultaneously?
Kaneki will be struggling to land serious blows on Denji, because most of the time, Denji’s body reacts on instinct while his mind is formulating plans on the fly.
He has an insane amount of attention to detail, which has been shown repeatedly, from quickly catching Power's contradiction when she tried to trick him, to recalling Asa's speech about starfish when it seemed like he wasn’t even listening. He adapts what he notices into strategic moves fast and even before he even got formal training such as the first example I gave when Denji was aiming for weak points on an opponent, even after training with Kishibe, who again, could keep up with Quanxi, Denji learned to be even more perceptive of his environment and opponents. Because of his quick thinking, dirty fighting style and endurance allow him overcome ridiculous odds time and time again.
 
Denji likely wins due to strategy and cunning like I've said in the previous CSM vs TG thread. (So ill bring up a majority of points I brought up there)

Denji has always been perfectly willing to aim for an opponent’s weak points right from the start of a fight, exploiting any injuries without hesitation. His ability in combat has only improved thanks to his special training with Kishibe (which continued weekly in Part 1), a veteran devil hunter skilled enough to briefly keep up with Quanxi, another hunter regarded as strong enough to beat almost anyone in the world in pure h2h combat. Through that training, Denji learned to keep a cool head during battle, stay alert for ways to exploit the environment and to never trust what a "hunter" says. An example being his fight with Katana Man, where he baited him into attacking his head, only to counter with a hidden chainsaw from his leg. This kind of deceptive, dirty play is exactly how Denji fights. He doesn’t fight fair, and he will not fight fair. Denji also has quick thinking and unnatural cleverness in battle have helped him survive situations that should have been impossible: He forced Reze underwater to block her ability to use explosions, set himself on fire to exploit Santa Claus’s weakness to light, tricked the Eternity Devil into begging for death by abusing its pain threshold and even cut into his own brain to fight off the Falling Devil’s mental attack. These are feats of a mind that adapts under pressure and knows how to weaponize both his own body and his surroundings. And more than once, he’s built entire plans from scratch based on whatever information and resources he had at the moment. The best example is the final battle against the Control Devil, where he outsmarted Makima, someone who was canonically untouchable and even Kishibe wondered how the hell he managed to pull it off. Denji caught her completely off-guard by exploiting small details he noticed from their brief interactions, despite his mind being jumbled and unstable at the time. Not only that, but Denji is known to stay calm in high-pressure situations and recall important information even when it seems like he isn’t paying attention at all. Kaneki will be struggling to land serious blows on Denji, because most of the time, Denji’s body reacts on instinct while his mind is formulating plans on the fly. One example I gave above is the Katana Man fight, but Denji’s manipulation and ability to adapt in real time is what is truly notable here.

He has an insane amount of attention to detail, which has been shown repeatedly, from quickly catching Power's contradiction when she tried to trick him, to recalling Asa's speech about starfish when it seemed like he wasn’t even listening. He adapts what he notices into strategic moves fast and even before he even got formal training such as the first example I gave when Denji was aiming for weak points on an opponent, even after training with Kishibe, who again, could keep up with Quanxi, Denji learned to be even more perceptive of his environment and opponents. Because of his quick thinking, dirty fighting style and endurance allow him overcome ridiculous odds time and time again.

Some quick examples (repeating some I gave from above):
Based on examples I gave above, yes his endurance is pretty broken as well, more examples such as: surviving being stabbed through the chest multiple times, enduring being bisected, fighting while heavily injured and even feeling pleasure from wounds inflicted by enemies like Sword Man. His chainsaws shred through his own body like cheese and by extension, they’ll do the same to Kaneki, the LS difference is not significant because the piercing damage of Denji's chainsaws remove any hope of restraint.

Denji primarily wins because of his cunning, ruthlessness and combat adaptability and he should take this due to the sheer difference in practical fighting experience. So I'm going with Denji for now.
I agree. Many underestimate Denji's fighting skills and cunning.
Initially, I wanted to use the Sasaki key, but that would probably make the fight much less close.

Kaneki Part 1 EoS is still skilled enough to fight the strongest investigators and defeat them without killing them, which requires superior skills.
However, yes. Denji is just ****** up. This dude sets himself on fire to get the "Power of Light" and is ready to cut off his arms and legs to deceive the enemy. Kaneki will be stunned by this fighting style and it will be difficult for him at first.

Now that I think about it, Takizawa would have done well against Denji. They're just two ******* from the same berry field.
 
I do agree that Denji's cunning and adaptability is impressive, but I think it's fair to say that it likely goes both ways, Kaneki is shown several times fighting people solely on instinct, like his training against Banjo. Denji's instinctual actions wouldn't be too much of an issue considering Kaneki can read attackers movements (including chaotic/unorthodox ones) develop mid fight and continuously overwhelm people with his Kagune spam to donut hole them.
Did you read the scan I mentioned? The point is that Denji doesn't just fight on pure instinct, his attacks and reactions are calculated, not random. Even when he's acting on "instinct," it's informed by experience, strategy and deception. In fact, Denji's fighting style is so unpredictable because he's not consciously thinking about the fight in a traditional way, he's mixing instinct with quick-thinking tactics. Someone trying to "read" him would struggle because Denji doesn’t telegraph his moves in a conventional way, he sets traps, uses the environment and adapts based on what’s happening moment to moment. Kaneki might be good at reading combat patterns, but Denji’s entire fighting style is based on dirty tactics, misdirection and strategies with a sea of unpredictability and chaos. Instinct isn't only at play here as well, Denji has formal combat training and his ability to bait and deceive opponents, along with his ridiculous endurance are all being stacked together. That makes it even harder for Kaneki to predict or overwhelm him, no matter how chaotic or spam-heavy Kaneki’s attacks are. At the end of the day, Denji isn’t fighting Kaneki "fairly" or predictably. He's going to exploit every opening, endure through everything Kaneki can throw and pull off unconventional counters just like he’s done against much smarter and more dangerous opponents than Kaneki.
Another thing to mention is that Kaneki has resistances to things like information analysis' and analytical pred which is going to make it hard for Denji to analyze things about him mid fight.

Overall, I think Kaneki wins due to :
a superior kit with much more range
the ability to ascertain Denji's movements for counters
a counter to Denji's ability to analyze his opponents well
and of course, the ability to one shot someone after a few minutes of fighting.
Most of your points don't really address what I actually said. Denji’s ability to "analyze" is based on situational awareness, quick thinking, exploiting physical openings and adapting in real time through dirty tactics and deception. Kaneki resisting things like "information analysis" doesn't matter when Denji is simply reading behavior, the environment and exploiting mistakes instinctively. Denji doesn’t need to "analyze" Kaneki in the way you’re thinking, he baits and adapts in the moment, whether or not he can perfectly "read" his opponent. That’s how he beat much deadlier and more skilled opponents like Makima, Santa Claus, Reze, Katana Man, and the Falling Devil (momentarily).

As for Kaneki’s "superior kit" and "range," it’s not like Denji hasn’t dealt with enemies who had both overwhelming strength and range advantages before. Reze massively outclassed him in strength, skill and mobility, Santa Claus had invulnerability and an army of dolls that were constantly attacking him and even Santa Claus was frightened by Denji's refusal to die and even called him scary because he just kept pushing and pushing and pushing. No not because he's pregnant, but because of his determination. (I encourage you to actually read the imgur link I attached). Makima defeated Pochita, the Gun Devil and had entire countries submit to her, even forcing Kishibe to give up and rely on Denji to try his plan, yet Denji still pulled off a win through strategy, deception and raw grit. Kaneki's range won't stop Denji from baiting, tanking through, or exploiting weaknesses when the opportunity appears. Kaneki being able to "ascertain movements" also assumes Denji fights conventionally. He doesn't. Denji intentionally fights dirty: hiding chainsaws, baiting attacks to expose himself for counters, weaponizing his own pain and injuries to create openings and pulling unpredictable, suicidal stunts (like setting himself on fire) to flip battles around.

Lastly, saying Kaneki can "one-shot" after a few minutes assumes he even gets a clean hit through. Denji’s endurance is absolutely insane, this guy fought for 3 straight days against the Eternity Devil, cut into his own brain to resist mental attacks and kept fighting after being bisected and repeatedly stabbed through vital organs.
Kaneki’s not one-shotting Denji unless he lands a fatal blow and Denji just stands there and lets it happen, which he won’t.

At this point, I'm heavily inclined to assume you didn't actually read everything I said above:
Based on examples I gave above, yes his endurance is pretty broken as well, more examples such as: surviving being stabbed through the chest multiple times, enduring being bisected, fighting while heavily injured and even feeling pleasure from wounds inflicted by enemies like Sword Man.
At the end of the day, Denji has fought stronger, smarter and deadlier opponents than Kaneki and survived using exactly the traits Kaneki would have the hardest time countering: unpredictability, ruthlessness, dirty tactics, endurance, on the fly strategy etc... And why are we refusing to acknowlege that any attack Denji gives Kaneki slices through him like butter.
 
yo, im actually fcking stupid and retract everything I said, this was about tokyo ghoul eos and not tokyo ghoul re eos, it's why i was so confused the 400 ton rating. Denji brutally slams, Kaneki at this point doesn't even have his AD or reactive evol, and Denji also has more output with chainsaws.
 
It is worth remembering that Kaneki has a LS that is almost 45 times greater than Denji's LS and can pin him down and crush him with his kagune.

Scolopendra also has several forms that give a speed boost. In the end, he became a blitz of those characters with whom he fought on equal terms just a minute ago.

Also, seeing that Denji needs to be pulled by the starter, he can simply deprive him of this opportunity
 
Come to think of it, would it be better to use Sasaki's key or put Takizawa against Denji?
 
surviving being stabbed through the chest multiple times, enduring being bisected, fighting while heavily injured and even feeling pleasure from wounds inflicted by enemies like Sword Man.
I'd say his best feats as of now are focused on the falling devil arc, as it shows Denji fights more like a devil than most devils.
For example:
Can fight a being who's superior to him while getting brutalized at every turn, even shrugging off decapitation while laughing.
Can do that even while running away and protecting Asa from attacks from all direction.
 
You greatly overestimate Kaneki's RE and AD. Even at the end of the story, it took him a few minutes to surpass Furuta and One-shot him.AD will definitely make a difference in this fight, but it will take some time.
Furuta's a good fighter though. Raised the same way Arima was and was also called talented by him. He should have an easier time adapting and predicting Denji's moves.

At the end of the day, Denji has fought stronger, smarter and deadlier opponents than Kaneki and survived using exactly the traits Kaneki would have the hardest time countering: unpredictability, ruthlessness, dirty tactics, endurance, on the fly strategy etc...
We're gonna test that out soon.

And I think I'm gonna vote for Kaneki here. One, due to LS, Kaneki's gonna be able to rip apart Denji basically any time he gets his Kagune on Denji, causing him to have to regenerate more than Kaneki will until he's tired out or in a state he can't move. Two, Kaneki's an incomplete kakuja and we see throughout his fights, his Kagune grows and becomes stronger from not one shotting Amon in Arata to slicing right through it.

Which of the devils here scale to 443tons?
 
Despite Denji's crazy fighting style and creativity, I vote for Kaneki for the following reasons:

1) Superior LS. The LS difference is 100 times. Kaneki's Kagune is capable of spontaneous attacks from underground and can change shape on the fly. While Denji is sliding past one of the tentacles, it will simply transform into a hand and hold it. With equal AP, superior LS, and the fact that they both look like glass cannons, Kaneki will be able to tear Denji apart with his hands and kagune.
In the battle with Shinohara, we even see Kaneki almost break his back when Shinohara tries to block Kaneki's attack. The same thing awaits Denji if he tries to block the attacks. Considering that Kaneki is superior to him in skills, Denji will not be able to neutralize the difference in LS.

2) Kaneki's AD is really powerful. Not only does he have a speed and strength booster when becoming a kakuja, but his power level in this form grows rapidly. In just a minute of fighting, he is able to FTE an opponent who fought him on equal terms. When switching to this form, he oneshots someone who was neck and neck with him before.
Yes, his fighting style is not as skillful. However, his speed and strength increase many times over.

Denji's only attempt is to pull off the same trick he did against Katana Man. However, Kaneki has enhanced reflexes and can change the trajectory of his movement and get behind his opponent.

3) Kaneki has autonomous regen and is also able to replenish his stamina during a fight by eating his opponent, just like Denji. However, Kaneki does not need to start the regeneration process, since it is automatic. Kaneki only needs to break his spine and cut off his arms to end the fight.
 
I’m gonna vote for Kaneki. Denji is very clever and experienced, but a lot of his wins are attributed to tricking his opponent or exploiting their weaknesses. Kaneki doesn’t have any big weaknesses Denji can exploit besides damage to his brain which would be difficult with his skill and Kaneki can learn his movements so anything he tries will eventually be figured out. Plus his Kagune and LS difference will give him a major advantage when compared to Denji’s chainsaws.
 
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