Mistakes in Scaling a Few Bleach Characters

[Apollonir.Scale]

I'm going to talk about the incorrect scaling I mentioned in the Bleach Discussion Thread. Some of them I've never mentioned before, but I've already mentioned FKT Toshiro. Those who want can also read the articles about Toshiro in the Bleach Discussion Thread.

FKT Toshiro
It's wrong to scale Toshiro to Halibel. Briefly the reasons

1) Toshiro can make ice and Halibel is a character who fights using water. Toshiro has the elemental advantage. In the Bleach universe, it is possible to influence people who are much stronger than himself with his elemental advantage. For example, although Hooleer is much weaker than Yamamoto, he can disperse Yamamoto's flames with Wind Manipulation. Bazz B, who has Flame Manipulation, can prevail over Toshiro. There are more examples in the series, but these are enough for now.

2) Halibel said she's holding back.

3) The Toshiro vs Halibel battle took place 2-3 days after Toshiro vs Yammy. It cannot be proven that in such a short period of 2-3 days, Toshiro surpassed the Base Yammy level and reached the Halibel league. Base Yammy, which was stronger and giant than the Yammy that Toshiro fought, was told by Renji, '‘This is not as strong as other espadas'’. Rukia and Chad did not object. The arrancars seen by Renji, Rukia and Chad: Aaroniero Arruruerie, Szayel Aporro Granz, Nnoitra Gilga, Ulquiorra Schiffer (Base), Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (1 Arm Base form). All of these characters are categorised as inferior to Halibel (I disagree with Uluqiorra and Grimmjow, but this is not the subject of CRT). It is not possible for Toshiro to get strong enough to surpass so many people in 2-3 days. Even if he will become very strong in 2-3 days, his anti-feats against Halibel show that Toshiro is still not at Halibel level.

Soi Fon was crushed against BG9 during the TYBW Arc. He trained afterwards, but the result didn't change much. Even if he beat BG9, he did not reach the level to beat him without difficulty. The reason I gave the example of Soi Fon is to prove that the idea that training in a short period of time will allow a character to greatly surpass his previous opponents is wrong. There is a 9-day time difference between the 1st Quincy invasion and the 2nd Quincy invasion in TYBW Arc. Even 9 days of training cannot make Soi Fon and Toshiro a thousand times stronger than before. It would be very inconsistent to say that a 2-3 day training will bring Toshiro from Base Yammy level to Halibel level.

I explained the 2-3 day time difference in the Bleach Discussion Thread, you can read it.

Now I would like to mention a counter-argument.

If we accept what is written in this comment as true, we will have circular scaling and this is wrong. Even though we see that Toshiro is crushed against Halibel, we would be scaling Toshiro to someone with higher stats than Halibel, namely Barragan. It has already been stated that Toshiro has the elemental advantage and Halibel is holding himself. So if you scale Toshiro to Soi Fon bankai, which can exceed Barragan's durability, Toshiro should defeat Halibel instead of being crushed. But he was being crushed against a Halibel holding himself, and it was Toshiro who had the elemental advantage.

Since FKT Arc Toshiro was demoted, Cang Du's Tier will also be indirectly demoted.

FKT Soi Fon Bankai
It is a very erroneous interpretation that Soi Fon's Bankai is a scale to Barragan's durability. Barragan can travel off guard, that is, with low durability, since he will refute it with respira anyway. It is shown in the series that when you are off guard, you can take damage from much weaker people. For example Tosen-FKT Hisagi, Aizen-Shinji.

Because of what I wrote about strengthening, you may think that I don't see much difference between Soi Fon's SS and FKT arc states. Yes, I don't think Soi Fon got a big power up between the two arcs. But I'm not going to use this to downgrade FKT Soi Fon to 7-B, but to upgrade his SS arc to 6-B. After all, he was able to defeat Barragan's fraccion espada. The SS arc should be able to do the same. To summarise, Soi Fon Bankai's scale to Barragan's durability should be removed, and the SS arc state and the Ap description of the Arrancar arc state should be merged, or if not, both should be 6-B. Indirectly, SS Yoruichi should also be 6-B since it fights Soi Fon in SS arc. Kūkaku also rises to 6-B, but I am in favour of raising only Kido's Ap to 6-B.

Since Soi Fon was lowered, Bg9's Tier will also be lowered indirectly.

Äs Nödt

It is very difficult to give Äs Nödt an Ap scale. It is very normal that he can exceed the Durability of the people he scares with Fear Mp. The people who are scared have their guards lowered due to the effect of Fear. Therefore, Äs Nödt's ability to damage Renji and Byakuya should not give him an Ap scale. Äs Nödt's Ap description could be the same as Driscol and Pepe's. So

NaNaNa

NaNana's profile says she can damage Rose off-screen. There's a possibility that Rose is an off-guard. It wouldn't be right to use an off-screen event as an AP feat. Also, NaNaNa already has Dura Neg on her profile. There's also the possibility that she hit Rose off-screen with Dura Neg. A feat that involves assumptions.

Robert

Robert was able to hit an off guard Shunsui. Shunsui was just talking to him. This shouldn't give him an Ap feat. It was stated that Meninas>Robert, Candice, NaNaNa. Base Liltotto defeated Meninas. Since you won't say Base Liltotto>Shikai Shunsui, we can say that Robert can't scale Shikai Shunsui. Let me explain why Base Liltotto Ap>Shikai Shunsui. Even the Elites before Aushwelen are stronger than the Quincy girls. Shikai Shunsui overcame Lille Barro, who was resurrected with Aushwelen and became stronger. Lille felt the need to use Schrift to defeat Shikai Shunsui.

Shikai Shunsui>Post Aushwelen Base Barro>Pre Aushwelen Base Barro>Bambietta>Volstandig Liltotto>Base Liltotto>Volstandig Meninas>Robert

We can put Robert in the same Ap tier as Sternritters without feats like Jerome and Berenice.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree

 

[SlendVeny]

You disagree with Toshiro scaling to Soifon because that would make him above Barragan, but don't think Soifon scales to Barragan?

 

[Purgy]

1) Toshiro can make ice and Halibel is a character who fights using water. Toshiro has the elemental advantage. In the Bleach universe, it is possible to influence people who are much stronger than himself with his elemental advantage. For example, although Hooleer is much weaker than Yamamoto, he can disperse Yamamoto's flames with Wind Manipulation. Bazz B, who has Flame Manipulation, can prevail over Toshiro. There are more examples in the series, but these are enough for now.

This page, which is strangely excluded from your imgur link, explicitly states that while Toshiro can turn her water into ice, Harribel can also turn his ice into water, so neither has the elemental advantage.

2) Halibel said she's holding back.

She said that she hasn't shown her full power yet, which is obvious because she's still in base form, but Toshiro hadn't even used his Shikai by that point let alone his Bankai, so it's moot. The two were still shown to be somewhat relative when at full power.

3) The Toshiro vs Halibel battle took place 2-3 days after Toshiro vs Yammy. It cannot be proven that in such a short period of 2-3 days, Toshiro surpassed the Base Yammy level and reached the Halibel league. Base Yammy, which was stronger and giant than the Yammy that Toshiro fought, was told by Renji, '‘This is not as strong as other espadas'’. Rukia and Chad did not object. The arrancars seen by Renji, Rukia and Chad: Aaroniero Arruruerie, Szayel Aporro Granz, Nnoitra Gilga, Ulquiorra Schiffer (Base), Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (1 Arm Base form). All of these characters are categorised as inferior to Halibel (I disagree with Uluqiorra and Grimmjow, but this is not the subject of CRT). It is not possible for Toshiro to get strong enough to surpass so many people in 2-3 days. Even if he will become very strong in 2-3 days, his anti-feats against Halibel show that Toshiro is still not at Halibel level.

Firstly, this is blatantly just an argument from incredulity, you can't believe that Toshiro got that much stronger in such a period of time therefore it can't be true, even though his feats clearly show that it is the case.

Secondly, Toshiro only ever used his Shikai against Yammy.

Lastly, Renji is clearly just assuming Yammy's strength based on his Espada number, which is especially misleading in his case for obvious reasons.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll address my disagreements later, if Deceived doesn’t get to it before me

 

[Myxenete]

Toshiro can make ice and Halibel is a character who fights using water. Toshiro has the elemental advantage

Absolue nothing burger of an "elemental advantage" given the fact Harribel also has this "Advantage"

Bazz B, who has Flame Manipulation, can prevail over Toshiro. There are more examples in the series, but these are enough for now.

This is just blatantly untrue Bazz and Toshiro fight relatively equally until Bazz starts fighting as he phrases it "for real", even if we look at other portions of the fight it's clear it has nothing to do with an elemental advantage given the fact burger finger 2 basically one shots Toshiro, on the other hand Toshiro is tanking Harribel's ceros Point blank and Harribel herself stalling to gather moisture in order to produce stronger attacks that could actually kill Toshiro, necessating he scales to her regular attacks

Halibel said she's holding back.

Toshiro in the very same set of panels that you provide is shown physically contending with Harribel after that statement is made, thus she's not holding back anymore, only being pushed back by the power of Ola Azul (which wouldn't matter still as if you actually read the profiles you'd know Shikai Toshiro and base Hartibel are not accepted as scaling to eachother), this also does nothing to discredit his later feats and statements either.

The Toshiro vs Halibel battle took place 2-3 days after Toshiro vs Yammy. It cannot be proven that in such a short period of 2-3 days, Toshiro surpassed the Base Yammy level and reached the Halibel league. Base Yammy, which was stronger and giant than the Yammy that Toshiro fought, was told by Renji, '‘This is not as strong as other espadas'’. Rukia and Chad did not object. The arrancars seen by Renji, Rukia and Chad: Aaroniero Arruruerie, Szayel Aporro Granz, Nnoitra Gilga, Ulquiorra Schiffer (Base), Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (1 Arm Base form). All of these characters are categorised as inferior to Halibel (I disagree with Uluqiorra and Grimmjow, but this is not the subject of CRT). It is not possible for Toshiro to get strong enough to surpass so many people in 2-3 days. Even if he will become very strong in 2-3 days, his anti-feats against Halibel show that Toshiro is still not at Halibel level.

Argument from incredulity

If we accept what is written in this comment as true, we will have circular scaling and this is wrong. Even though we see that Toshiro is crushed against Halibel, we would be scaling Toshiro to someone with higher stats than Halibel, namely Barragan. It has already been stated that Toshiro has the elemental advantage and Halibel is holding himself. So if you scale Toshiro to Soi Fon bankai, which can exceed Barragan's durability, Toshiro should defeat Halibel instead of being crushed. But he was being crushed against a Halibel holding himself, and it was Toshiro who had the elemental advantage.

This is not the accepted scaling so this is insignificant fluff

It is a very erroneous interpretation that Soi Fon's Bankai is a scale to Barragan's durability. Barragan can travel off guard, that is, with low durability, since he will refute it with respira anyway. It is shown in the series that when you are off guard, you can take damage from much weaker people. For example Tosen-FKT Hisagi, Aizen-Shinji.

It blows off half of his head after he's trapped and made definitevly aware that it will Hit him, unless you're claiming Barragan is the biggest idiot in the series and lets his durability slip even when he knows he's going to get hit this is entirely wrong, to make matters worse Soi fon doesn't scale to Barragan he scales to his Respira so even of his guard was down Jakuho Raikoben's rating would not change

Because of what I wrote about strengthening, you may think that I don't see much difference between Soi Fon's SS and FKT arc states. Yes, I don't think Soi Fon got a big power up between the two arcs. But I'm not going to use this to downgrade FKT Soi Fon to 7-B, but to upgrade his SS arc to 6-B. After all, he was able to defeat Barragan's fraccion espada. The SS arc should be able to do the same. To summarise, Soi Fon Bankai's scale to Barragan's durability should be removed, and the SS arc state and the Ap description of the Arrancar arc state should be merged, or if not, both should be 6-B. Indirectly, SS Yoruichi should also be 6-B since it fights Soi Fon in SS arc. Kūkaku also rises to 6-B, but I am in favour of raising only Kido's Ap to 6-B.

Since Soi Fon was lowered, Bg9's Tier will also be lowered indirectly.

Another argument from incredulity (made worse by the fact the SS arc does not in any way affect Jakuho Raikoben's rating seeing as it's not used there.)

It is very difficult to give Äs Nödt an Ap scale. It is very normal that he can exceed the Durability of the people he scares with Fear Mp. The people who are scared have their guards lowered due to the effect of Fear.

The only time Byakuya's guard is possibly lowered from the feat is the second time he gets hurt, As Nodt would still scale irregardless of if we took that instance as an off guard moment

 

[Excellence616]

Disagree FRA and FRB

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Disagree FRA and FRB

That’s meat eating

 

[Bastolan27]

Äs Nödt

It is very difficult to give Äs Nödt an Ap scale. It is very normal that he can exceed the Durability of the people he scares with Fear Mp. The people who are scared have their guards lowered due to the effect of Fear. Therefore, Äs Nödt's ability to damage Renji and Byakuya should not give him an Ap scale. Äs Nödt's Ap description could be the same as Driscol and Pepe's. So

As Nodt inflicted "the fear" on Byakuya by stabbing him with his spikes, he damaged Byakuya before the fear took effect. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

FKT Toshiro

Before I get into what I disagree with, let me state that I actually agree about downgrading Toshiro. And to add some credence to what Apollonir is saying, considering the following:

• In chapter 356, Toshiro heavily implies that the only thing that got a significant amp from her Resurreccion is her attack's range and speed.
  • This is corroborated by Unmasked that states Opening with La Gota, the true worth is in the long ranged water releasing attacks... (「戦雫」 を始めとした、水を放出する遠距離攻撃こそ真骨頂). Aka La Gota's "buff" isn't an AP or durability amp but range and speed.
• This is important because in chapter 355 & 356, Halibel effortlessly bisects Toshiro's Bankai ice clone. Which given it is constructed of his Bankai ice, and we see he uses his Bankai ice wings to block and defend from attacks, it should scale to Toshiro. That means she can one shot Toshiro if she wants too.

I won't belabor the point since Apollonir brings up more reasoning why Toshiro shouldn't scale. And as a result Cang Du will be downgraded as well.

Also, Lisa needs her possibly scaling from Halibel removed. Why? In chapter 375, Halibel without taking a lick of damage, knocks away a combined attack from Hollow Lisa + Hollow Hiyori + Shikai Toshiro. The possibly scaling on Lisa's profiles already acknowledges it's very unknown and generous in assumption. But upon further examination, she should lose her Halibel scaling as well.

FKT Soi Fon Bankai

The premise that Baraggan is always off guard may work for the first time she fires her Bankai, but the second time Baraggan is actively on guard without a shadow of a doubt. He's trapped in a small box and sees she's about to fire her Bankai at him, and he even ages away some of it but not all of it and is still damaged.

Unfortunately, "I don't think she got a big power up" is an argument from incredulity, and it is not backed by any means. Therein-fore, I can dismiss that claim with an another claim under equal interpretation. We also know that Soi Fon is always training too, she states as much, and we see this to be true. So we have reason to believe she did get stronger instead.

Äs Nödt

Byakuya's durability wasn't lowered at all when As Nodt harmed him at the beginning of the fight. All the Fear does is cause people to become paralyzed in fear and eventually it can cause death by fear. But nowhere is it stated nor implied to lower durability. The most it does to stats is cause people to hesitate which would slow their movements, not lower their durability. Furthermore, Byakuya isn't gripped by the Fear until later in the fight.

Furthermore, you provided zero evidence for As Nodt's schrift lowering durability. So, there's no reason to accept your claim beyond headcanon.

NaNaNa

You need to prove Rose was off guard. We don't accept claims or scaling based upon unsubstantiated potentialities. We have due reason to believe the Underbelly wasn't at play here because it paralyzes the opponents he uses it on and incapacitates them (scans on the profile). Which clearly doesn't happen to Rose. Furthermore, he needs time to observe people (as seen with Aizen, who had holes in his reiatsu that made it even easier to observe, and seen in CFYOW when Mayuri uses him), so you'd have to concede that Rose stood there and just let him observe with his ability. All of which isn't likely. Hence why he scales to Rose, since it is far more likely they engaged in physical altercation.

Robert

First, Shunsui isn't off guard. He quite literally has his Shikai active. Shunsui likes to attempt to lure his opponent's into a false sense of security to then take them by surprise (we see this with Starrk). Second, before I address the Liltotto point, provide a scan for Meninas > Robert. Right now you're merely asserting it as fact without backing it up. You need to substantiate your points for them to hold any weight.

TLDR; Agree with the Toshiro downgrade (and by extension Cang Du and Lisa), disagree with everything else.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Common Cang Du L tbh

 

[Myxenete]

• In chapter 356, Toshiro heavily implies that the only thing that got a significant amp from her Resurreccion is her attack's range and speed.
  • This is corroborated by Unmasked that states Opening with La Gota, the true worth is in the long ranged water releasing attacks... (「戦雫」 を始めとした、水を放出する遠距離攻撃こそ真骨頂). Aka La Gota's "buff" isn't an AP or durability amp but range and speed.
• This is important because in chapter 355 & 356, Halibel effortlessly bisects Toshiro's Bankai ice clone. Which given it is constructed of his Bankai ice, and we see he uses his Bankai ice wings to block and defend from attacks, it should scale to Toshiro. That means she can one shot Toshiro if she wants too.

I heavily disagree with this, this line of reasoning claims we should ignore the 3+ Instances of Toshiro tanking attacks from Harribel, including from point blank, as well as the statement that she herself doesn't think she can one shot him without building up moisture for a larger scale attack for a singular feat, at worst Zahyo Ningyo is simply weaker than Toshiro's ice and at worst it's an outlier feat

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I heavily disagree with this, this line of reasoning claims we should ignore the 3+ Instances of Toshiro tanking attacks from Harribel, including from point blank, as well as the statement that she herself doesn't think she can one shot him without building up moisture for a larger scale attack for a singular feat, at worst Zahyo Ningyo is simply weaker than Toshiro's ice and at worst it's an outlier feat

2 of those she either vaporizes the ice (he doesn't scale) or cuts through the ice wing (he doesn't scale), and in both instances Toshiro sacrifices a wing and flees away. The other examples it's very likely she just wasn't going all out. Which we have due reason to believe, given she just wastes time toying with people that can't even harm her, that's why Aizen cuts her down. It'd be different if we saw Toshiro was capable of harming her whatsoever, but that just isn't the case.

Edit: the moisture thing is a point of Toshiro countering her with hax. As Toshiro has proven himself time and time again to be slippery, evading instances of otherwise certain death. Halibel can believe she needs to build up water and it not be due to Toshiro's stats.

 

[Deceived3596]

Toshiro unequivocally doesn't scale to Harribel. In all the instances one could provide for relativity between the two, she is either holding back or Toshiro utilizes his elemental advantage to freeze her water attacks or create diversions. Everything else implies the exact opposite, that she is significantly above everyone she is fighting against until Aizen enters the picture.

I absolutely agree with Arc and his conclusions, if I didn't already make it obvious here and before.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Arc's points so far as the Toshiro stuff goes.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I still have these doubts, so they should be addressed to have a better clarification:

Context: all this picture are one after the other, so no chapters is skipped, its a chain-logic of events.

1. Soifon shows her Bankai, which can scale to Baraggan.
2. She fires it.
3. Starrk clearly sees it.
4. Right after, Starrk asks Shunsui if all captains have that much powerful Bankai.
5. Then, Starrk specifically asks Shunsui which Bankai is stronger, Shunsui’s or Toshiro’s, he does not use Soifon’s as a comparison point.
6. Starrk reiterates that he wants to know who is stronger between Shunsui and Toshiro.

---

Given this context, I want these questions to be clarified:

1. Why does Starrk use Toshiro as the benchmark for Shunsui’s strength and not Soifon, if Soifon's bankai were supposedly stronger? Starrk saw both.
2. Why Hallibel couldn't get out with sheer spiritual pressure from Toshiro's bankai if she was much stronger? if not freed, she would have lost a 1vs1.
3. Besides her own earlier statements, is there any actual reason Hallibel would be holding back, why she didn't killed toshiro if she had that much superiority?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I still have these doubts, so they should be addressed to have a better clarification:

Context: all this picture are one after the other, so no chapters is skipped, its a chain-logic of events.

1. Soifon shows her Bankai, which can scale to Baraggan.
2. She fires it.
3. Starrk clearly sees it.
4. Right after, Starrk asks Shunsui if all captains have that much powerful Bankai.
5. Then, Starrk specifically asks Shunsui which Bankai is stronger, Shunsui’s or Toshiro’s, he does not use Soifon’s as a comparison point.
6. Starrk reiterates that he wants to know who is stronger between Shunsui and Toshiro.

---

Given this context, I want these questions to be clarified:

1. Why does Starrk use Toshiro as the benchmark for Shunsui’s strength and not Soifon, if Soifon's bankai were supposedly stronger? Starrk saw both.
2. Why Hallibel couldn't get out with sheer spiritual pressure from Toshiro's bankai if she was much stronger? if not freed, she would have lost a 1vs1.
3. Besides her own earlier statements, is there any actual reason Hallibel would be holding back, why she didn't killed toshiro if she had that much superiority?

That statement for Toshiro is just specifically in context to that ultimate move of his that uses all the moisture in the atmosphere for the attack. I don't think it's in good faith to say he's talking about Toshiro's normal Bankai performance that was getting dog walked. I can see an "up to High 6-A (Starrk was more impressed with Toshiro's ultimate Bankai technique than Soifon's)", but I think that's rather flimsy. I don't agree that the statement for Toshiro is about raw AP. Starrk just witnessed a busted ability enable Toshiro to defeat an opponent far superior to himself, which makes it powerful indeed, just not in the AP sense inherently.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

You disagree with Toshiro scaling to Soifon because that would make him above Barragan, but don't think Soifon scales to Barragan?

Now I object to two things.

1) Toshiro scaling to Barragan through Soi Fon's Bankai
2) Soi Fon scaling to Barragan through her Bankai.

As I explained on CRT, it would be absurd to scale Toshiro to someone who is stronger than Halibel when he is weaker than Halibel.

Toshiro is tanking Harribel's ceros Point blank

We can't consider this as tanking. Toshiro's wing is destroyed. If his wing hadn't been scratched by the ice despite being hit by Point Blank Cero, we could call this tanking.

I still have these doubts, so they should be addressed to have a better clarification:

Context: all this picture are one after the other, so no chapters is skipped, its a chain-logic of events.

1. Soifon shows her Bankai, which can scale to Baraggan.
2. She fires it.
3. Starrk clearly sees it.
4. Right after, Starrk asks Shunsui if all captains have that much powerful Bankai.
5. Then, Starrk specifically asks Shunsui which Bankai is stronger, Shunsui’s or Toshiro’s, he does not use Soifon’s as a comparison point.
6. Starrk reiterates that he wants to know who is stronger between Shunsui and Toshiro.

---

Given this context, I want these questions to be clarified:

1. Why does Starrk use Toshiro as the benchmark for Shunsui’s strength and not Soifon, if Soifon's bankai were supposedly stronger? Starrk saw both.
2. Why Hallibel couldn't get out with sheer spiritual pressure from Toshiro's bankai if she was much stronger? if not freed, she would have lost a 1vs1.
3. Besides her own earlier statements, is there any actual reason Hallibel would be holding back, why she didn't killed toshiro if she had that much superiority?

Arc explained this situation better than I could. As he said, what Toshiro does is not defeating his opponent with the raw power of Bankai, but defeating someone much superior to him with the ultimate attack he can do with Bankai.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

a scan for Meninas > Robert

I'm talking about the scan written on Meninas' profile.

 

[Bastolan27]

Now I object to two things.

1) Toshiro scaling to Barragan through Soi Fon's Bankai
2) Soi Fon scaling to Barragan through her Bankai.

Why are we assuming that Soi-Fon is weaker than Toshiro? At this point in time, I'd actually argue that Soi-Fon is stronger. They should be equals by TYBW, but that’s after Toshiro undergoes two full years of intense training to perfect his Bankai. Meanwhile, we don’t see Soi-Fon go through any comparable power-up or extended training arc. So before that, it makes more sense to place her above him.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm talking about the scan written on Meninas' profile.

Yeah I figured. That’s talking more likely about her Schrift, which we know can amplify her strength by increasing her musculature. So what you actually get is a lot of relativity scaling rather than objective superiority. There’s only an issue in your mind because you’re assuming a massive gulf exists between the characters which isn’t provably true.

The rest of what I said regarding Shunsui still stands about him being on guard.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Why are we assuming that Soi-Fon is weaker than Toshiro?

I don't think so. In the comment I made on CRT, there was someone who defended Toshiro's scaling to Halibel by saying Bankai Toshiro>Bankai Soi Fon because of Starrk's words. I wrote it in reference to his comment. Otherwise, I don't think there is a big difference between Soi Fon and Kid Toshiro for Pre-TYBW.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

That statement for Toshiro is just specifically in context to that ultimate move of his that uses all the moisture in the atmosphere for the attack. I don't think it's in good faith to say he's talking about Toshiro's normal Bankai performance that was getting dog walked. I can see an "up to High 6-A (Starrk was more impressed with Toshiro's ultimate Bankai technique than Soifon's)", but I think that's rather flimsy. I don't agree that the statement for Toshiro is about raw AP. Starrk just witnessed a busted ability enable Toshiro to defeat an opponent far superior to himself, which makes it powerful indeed, just not in the AP sense inherently.

I actually agree with you that Toshiro’s normal stats shouldn’t scale and can be downgraded. However, his final attack, Hyōten Hyakkasō, which takes control of the sky, should get a rating on its own, because Starrk clearly used it as a benchmark, and Hallibel was actually fully stuck until she was freed by Wonderweiss.
If we do the same with Soifon big bullet, I can see it applied here as well.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Yeah I figured. That’s talking more likely about her Schrift, which we know can amplify her strength by increasing her musculature. So what you actually get is a lot of relativity scaling rather than objective superiority. There’s only an issue in your mind because you’re assuming a massive gulf exists between the characters which isn’t provably true.

The rest of what I said regarding Shunsui still stands about him being on guard.

This was the scan used for Meninas>Robert in Meninas' profile. Liltotto was in Base form when he defeated Volstandig Meninas. If Volstandig had also opened, Liltotto would have been much stronger than Meninas. Liltotto only saw Elites before Aushwelen and thought they were stronger than him. We know that Elites>Non Elite Sternritter (except Royd and Gremmy). So before Yhwach resurrected Lille Barro, Lille Barro>>Volstandig Liltotto>Base Liltotto>Volstandig Meninas>Volstandig Robert>Base Robert. Robert was in Base form when he took Shikai Shunsui's eye. You also admit that Shunsui's power did not increase. So how is it that Shikai Shunsui, when he was at Base Robert level, was able to defeat Base Lille Barro, who is at least 25 times stronger than Base Robert? I know that Volstandig is considered at least 5x multiple, that's why I said 25x multiple from 5x5.

I was in a hurry this morning and couldn't touch on some points.

Shunsui likes to attempt to lure his opponent's into a false sense of security to then take them by surprise (we see this with Starrk).

When was this information about Shunsui stated? When he was facing Starrk, he tried to end the fight immediately because he found Starrk dangerous. The scan I mentioned is the scan where he attacks Starrk who is talking to Lilynette and then says "Those weapons look dangerous. Can you fire Cero with those weapons?"

The premise that Baraggan is always off guard may work for the first time she fires her Bankai, but the second time Baraggan is actively on guard without a shadow of a doubt. He's trapped in a small box and sees she's about to fire her Bankai at him, and he even ages away some of it but not all of it and is still damaged.

But even with his first Bankai hit, he couldn't damage Barragan. He just left him in the smoke. Wonderweiss' scream dispersed the smoke. Barragan, who emerged from the smoke, seemed unharmed. When Soi Fon hit the second hit, Barragan was inside Hachigen's kido barrier. So I don't think this counts as a feat only for Jakho Raihkoben. Most likely, Respira's range was shortened due to kido. He still thought Respira could melt him and that's why he chose to stay off guard.

Another issue, does BG9 stealing Soi Fon's Bankai mean that he is as strong as her? It seems like there's a misinterpretation here. The Quincy who stole the Bankai is as strong as her when using the stolen Bankai. As Nodt scenes seem to disprove this. I'll look at the scenes/panels in my mind again and comment tomorrow.

Unfortunately, "I don't think she got a big power up" is an argument from incredulity, and it is not backed by any means. Therein-fore, I can dismiss that claim with an another claim under equal interpretation. We also know that Soi Fon is always training too, she states as much, and we see this to be true. So we have reason to believe she did get stronger instead.

Couldn't what I wrote in the Toshiro section be evidence for this? Soi Fon lost to BG9 in the TYBW 1st Invasion. Even though she defeated BG9 in the 2nd Invasion, she was still struggling. There was no major change. I wrote that there was a 9-day difference between the 1st and 2nd Invasion. How can there be a major change between the beginning of the Arrancar saga and the FKT Arc when the character cannot experience a major change in 9 days? We can naturally think that a character who cannot get a major power up in 9 days cannot get a major power up in 2-3 days either. You can say that there was a 1-month difference between the SS Arc and Uluqiorra coming to Karakura before. But it has already been stated that the character is the weakest captain and we see him as the weakest captain together with Toshiro. There was no major change in Toshiro, and the same situation can be valid for Soi Fon. Since Toshiro is more talented and younger than Soi Fon, it is expected that he will get stronger faster. Also, Soi Fon is the only captain below 6-B in SS Arc. Even if she is weaker than them, I don't think the difference will be that big.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I actually agree with you that Toshiro’s normal stats shouldn’t scale and can be downgraded. However, his final attack, Hyōten Hyakkasō, which takes control of the sky, should get a rating on its own, because Starrk clearly used it as a benchmark, and Hallibel was actually fully stuck until she was freed by Wonderweiss.

The suggestion in this CRT was to remove Toshiro's scale to Halibel only as a Raw AP. With the attack you mentioned, he will still scale to Halibel.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

The suggestion in this CRT was to remove Toshiro's scale to Halibel only as a Raw AP. With the attack you mentioned, he will still scale to Halibel.

Well, that was my main point of contention, all the scans I posted were in reference to that, so I agree.

Toshiro’s stats can be downgraded even in Bankai, but it should be indexed that with Hyōten Hyakkasō, by taking control of the sky, Starrk clearly implies its superiority over Soifon’s Bankai since he used that as benchmark, and it could even completely block Hallibel.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll reply to Apollo’s non Toshiro points later since we seem to have ironed out the Toshiro scaling.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I haven’t forgot about this don’t worry

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I should get to this today or tomorrow

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s gonna be tomorrow lol, I apologize work life has been super busy. But I appreciate y’all’s patience.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I waited for that girl for 3 years, I can wait for Arc for 3 days, no problem.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This was the scan used for Meninas>Robert in Meninas' profile. Liltotto was in Base form when he defeated Volstandig Meninas. If Volstandig had also opened, Liltotto would have been much stronger than Meninas. Liltotto only saw Elites before Aushwelen and thought they were stronger than him. We know that Elites>Non Elite Sternritter (except Royd and Gremmy). So before Yhwach resurrected Lille Barro, Lille Barro>>Volstandig Liltotto>Base Liltotto>Volstandig Meninas>Volstandig Robert>Base Robert. Robert was in Base form when he took Shikai Shunsui's eye. You also admit that Shunsui's power did not increase. So how is it that Shikai Shunsui, when he was at Base Robert level, was able to defeat Base Lille Barro, who is at least 25 times stronger than Base Robert? I know that Volstandig is considered at least 5x multiple, that's why I said 25x multiple from 5x5.

First and foremost, we do not accept that base Lille > Vollstandig Liltotto, you cannot just assert that. It's more like base Lille > base Liltotto, Vollstandig Lille > Vollstanding Liltotto. I also don't know where you get base Liltotto > Vollstandig Meninas, since that is also baseless. You use this to claim Lille is 25x stronger than the Robert that scales to Shunsui. Also, hold up, you might be confused. Vollstandig Robert is the person who scales to Shikai Shunsui. So per what's on profiles right now is Lille ~ Shunsui ~ Vollstandig Robert. Vollstandig is also not always considered 5x on wiki.

When was this information about Shunsui stated? When he was facing Starrk, he tried to end the fight immediately because he found Starrk dangerous. The scan I mentioned is the scan where he attacks Starrk who is talking to Lilynette and then says "Those weapons look dangerous. Can you fire Cero with those weapons?"

What are you trying to say with that scan exactly?

But even with his first Bankai hit, he couldn't damage Barragan. He just left him in the smoke. Wonderweiss' scream dispersed the smoke. Barragan, who emerged from the smoke, seemed unharmed. When Soi Fon hit the second hit, Barragan was inside Hachigen's kido barrier. So I don't think this counts as a feat only for Jakho Raihkoben. Most likely, Respira's range was shortened due to kido. He still thought Respira could melt him and that's why he chose to stay off guard.

That's because Barragan had time to age away and nerf Soifon's Bankai he couldn't do that at point blank range...

Another issue, does BG9 stealing Soi Fon's Bankai mean that he is as strong as her? It seems like there's a misinterpretation here. The Quincy who stole the Bankai is as strong as her when using the stolen Bankai. As Nodt scenes seem to disprove this. I'll look at the scenes/panels in my mind again and comment tomorrow.

Nope. They scale to the Bankai. That's made abundantly clear on their profiles. As Nodt actually makes this more consistent, since As Nodt scales above Byakuya's Bankai.

Couldn't what I wrote in the Toshiro section be evidence for this? Soi Fon lost to BG9 in the TYBW 1st Invasion. Even though she defeated BG9 in the 2nd Invasion, she was still struggling. There was no major change. I wrote that there was a 9-day difference between the 1st and 2nd Invasion. How can there be a major change between the beginning of the Arrancar saga and the FKT Arc when the character cannot experience a major change in 9 days? We can naturally think that a character who cannot get a major power up in 9 days cannot get a major power up in 2-3 days either. You can say that there was a 1-month difference between the SS Arc and Uluqiorra coming to Karakura before. But it has already been stated that the character is the weakest captain and we see him as the weakest captain together with Toshiro. There was no major change in Toshiro, and the same situation can be valid for Soi Fon. Since Toshiro is more talented and younger than Soi Fon, it is expected that he will get stronger faster. Also, Soi Fon is the only captain below 6-B in SS Arc. Even if she is weaker than them, I don't think the difference will be that big.

Soifon had 3 months after the Soul Society arc to train, which is more than a week. Also, Soifon is no longer 7-B anyway. She's 6-B now so I don't think this point really matters any more. That thread got made recently, so no worries for not knowing about it lol.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

First and foremost, we do not accept that base Lille > Vollstandig Liltotto, you cannot just assert that. It's more like base Lille > base Liltotto, Vollstandig Lille > Vollstanding Liltotto. I also don't know where you get base Liltotto > Vollstandig Meninas, since that is also baseless. You use this to claim Lille is 25x stronger than the Robert that scales to Shunsui. Also, hold up, you might be confused. Vollstandig Robert is the person who scales to Shikai Shunsui. So per what's on profiles right now is Lille ~ Shunsui ~ Vollstandig Robert. Vollstandig is also not always considered 5x on wiki.

Didn't Barro's profile state that Liltotto considered him unrivaled and that the power of the elite quincy was immeasurable?

Liltotto did not see Lille Barro, who was resurrected with Aushwalen and became stronger than before. So Liltotto's words were valid for Elit Quincy before Aushwalen. In CFYOW, Liltotto was shocked when she first learned that Gerard had lost. Lil saw Gerard at his weakest. So even the weakest versions of the Elite Quincy we see on screen should be superior to Liltotto's Volstandig version.

In the scene where Liltotto is going to kill Pepe after defeating Meninas, we see him enter Volstandig. This confirms that Volstandig was not there when he killed Meninas. We also see Liltotto tank Volstandig Meninas' punch while in base form.

Soifon had 3 months after the Soul Society arc to train, which is more than a week. Also, Soifon is no longer 7-B anyway. She's 6-B now so I don't think this point really matters any more. That thread got made recently, so no worries for not knowing about it lol.

Yes, I saw the CRT for SS Soi Fon.

She's 6-B

Wrong link?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What are you trying to say with that scan exactly?

I am stating that Shunsui finds Starrk dangerous, so he does not "take his opponent's into a false sense of security to then take them by surprise".

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Didn't Barro's profile state that Liltotto considered him unrivaled and that the power of the elite quincy was immeasurable?

Liltotto did not see Lille Barro, who was resurrected with Aushwalen and became stronger than before. So Liltotto's words were valid for Elit Quincy before Aushwalen. In CFYOW, Liltotto was shocked when she first learned that Gerard had lost. Lil saw Gerard at his weakest. So even the weakest versions of the Elite Quincy we see on screen should be superior to Liltotto's Volstandig version.

In the scene where Liltotto is going to kill Pepe after defeating Meninas, we see him enter Volstandig. This confirms that Volstandig was not there when he killed Meninas. We also see Liltotto tank Volstandig Meninas' punch while in base form.

Liltotto would know they have Vollstandig and Blut she doesn’t need to see them in those forms to know that. None of what you said means base Lille > Vollstandig Liltotto. And non Liltotto doesn’t tank that she’s clearly injured… her not dying would be a stamina or endurance feat. You’re also just extrapolating about off screen fights, Liltotto could’ve exited Vollstandig in order to save energy and then re-enter it when it was time to fight. We know this is likely because the Femritters concede that Vollstandig is taxing.

I am stating that Shunsui finds Starrk dangerous, so he does not "take his opponent's into a false sense of security to then take them by surprise".

That conclusion doesn’t follow logically whatsoever. If your opponent is dangerous, you would logically want any and every advantage you can get. Plus he literally sneak attacks Starrk during their fight at points.


We good to drop the Soifon stuff I take it?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Liltotto would know they have Vollstandig and Blut she doesn’t need to see them in those forms to know that. None of what you said means base Lille > Vollstandig Liltotto. And non Liltotto doesn’t tank that she’s clearly injured… her not dying would be a stamina or endurance feat. You’re also just extrapolating about off screen fights, Liltotto could’ve exited Vollstandig in order to save energy and then re-enter it when it was time to fight. We know this is likely because the Femritters concede that Vollstandig is taxing.

What about the buff given by Aushwalen? Although we don't know how much power it increases, I think it gives an increase that cannot be underestimated. I base this thought on the following. In the Bleach series, getting a 5x buff is enough to be able to overcome an opponent we are relative to. Toshiro could fight Shawlong at 20%. When he reached 100%, that is, when he became 5x stronger, he could easily defeat Shawlong. While Elite Sterrnriter lost against Sealed Squad Zero, they became overpowering the opponents they were previously crushed by with the amp from Aushwalen. Giving 5x for sure may be headcanon. But what I am trying to prove is not the amount of multip, but to explain that it is a power up that increases power that cannot be underestimated.

In other words, Lille after Aushwalen should clearly be much stronger and faster than Robert. Shikai Shunsui also scales to this post-Aushwalen Lille.

I also have a scaling over Bambietta. Since you got TYBW Ayon>Arrancar Saga Ayon, you probably won't accept this scaling. For those who are still wondering:

Bambietta~~Shinji~~Gin>Halibel>Ayon>Fullbringer Shikai Ichigo>Fullbringer saga Fullbringer Bankai Ichigo>Tsukishima~~Fullbringer Byakuya

There is a huge speed blitz difference between them. It can't be proven that the difference is less than the 5-10x amp that Byakuya got.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What about the buff given by Aushwalen? Although we don't know how much power it increases, I think it gives an increase that cannot be underestimated. I base this thought on the following. In the Bleach series, getting a 5x buff is enough to be able to overcome an opponent we are relative to. Toshiro could fight Shawlong at 20%. When he reached 100%, that is, when he became 5x stronger, he could easily defeat Shawlong. While Elite Sterrnriter lost against Sealed Squad Zero, they became overpowering the opponents they were previously crushed by with the amp from Aushwalen. Giving 5x for sure may be headcanon. But what I am trying to prove is not the amount of multip, but to explain that it is a power up that increases power that cannot be underestimated.

In other words, Lille after Aushwalen should clearly be much stronger and faster than Robert. Shikai Shunsui also scales to this post-Aushwalen Lille.

I also have a scaling over Bambietta. Since you got TYBW Ayon>Arrancar Saga Ayon, you probably won't accept this scaling. For those who are still wondering:

Bambietta~~Shinji~~Gin>Halibel>Ayon>Fullbringer Shikai Ichigo>Fullbringer saga Fullbringer Bankai Ichigo>Tsukishima~~Fullbringer Byakuya

There is a huge speed blitz difference between them. It can't be proven that the difference is less than the 5-10x amp that Byakuya got.

Given the Auswahlen is just not a multiplier, it’s an unquantifiable amp, and we’re not allowed to reason out multipliers as per our multiplier standards page, I don’t really feel like it’s necessary I respond to this. I say that because what you’re saying just goes against site standards. If you have a point to make ignoring multipliers let me know. Also, Lille is stronger than Robert on the profiles already.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

It's not a multiplier but it also increases power and it doesn't seem to increase it a little. Anyway, if it doesn't meet the multiplier standards, I won't comment yet.

Then at least Toshiro can be applied. Is Damage's vote enough for this or should one more person vote?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's not a multiplier but it also increases power and it doesn't seem to increase it a little. Anyway, if it doesn't meet the multiplier standards, I won't comment yet.

Then at least Toshiro can be applied. Is Damage's vote enough for this or should one more person vote?

I’ll ask another thread mod to accept the changes since we’ve come to an agreement, and then I’ll apply the changes to Toshiro