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Mega Man CRT: Zero Era Profiles + Zero Intelligence

Smashtwig

Smashtwig

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I know. I know. Gunvolt CRT Part 4. I get it.

We do NOT care right now.

Mega Man Zero Era Profiles
This is the main thing I want to highlight.

The Zero Era takes place a hundred or so years after Mega Man X- with a setting completely unrecognizable from the X Series made of mostly sand and a dystopian lone city compared to the previous series which was teeming with life.

Now this normally isn't an excuse to make a whole new profile, however. X and Zero have entirely different movesets and abilities and arsenal, etc and don't inherit any of it from the X era aside from basic physiology. Zero in particular, has pretty much none of his cool powers like thought based time stopping or cloning- and adopts a simpler kit. I've also heard from the Mega Man guys that they're planning to make different keys for X-Era, so I figure that Z-Era should be it's own thing to not mix in too much stuff in one profile, and the abilities alone are a huge clutter when we get around to listing both eras

Not to mention a new design that is hardly recognizable from X Era- and the fact that Zero is in a completely different body, explicitly a replica body of the original one taken over by Omega- which aligns with the fact that he has none of the unique abilities he used to have.

But more importantly than any of that, X and Zero become totally different characters- as in, their personalities. X has grown tired and has to be a genuine leader for a hundred years- also became a ghost that witnessed the entire world go to the trash heep, see his copy destroying countless Reploid lives. Zero... doesn't even know who he is- at all, not even down to his name- and he has to go through an entire arc of self discovery to figure out who he is and what he fights for- and he lost almost all of the personality that X Era Zero had, such as a slightly arrogant attitude, etc. Heck, Z-Era Zero (actually, pretty much NO ONE) EVER even SMILES in the Z-Era, that's how different they are, they might as well be different people entirely.
Thus, I argue that they require entirely different profiles. While X in the Zero Era is under construction, here is Zero's profile (ignore the stat ratings). Unfortunately, not all scans are complete for the P&A section, but I leave that to Setto, since he said he was gonna work on that part.

Plus, in the current moment, our Zero profile includes Command Mission, a separate timeline from the Z-Era.

If Deku can have split profiles for reasons like this, so can Zero.

Extraordinary Genius Zero
This one is a bit harder to argue for, but I believe that he fits the requirements.
While an argument can be made for combat intelligence, that seems to be under debate due to the battle intelligence situation going on in this site right now, so I'll use this feat instead.
he is able to look at Mega Man X's damaged X-Buster and use its schematics and parts to upgrade his own Z-Buster- despite X and Zero's bodies being technology that Gate failed to analyze completely. Yet, Gate was able to build Infinity Mijinion, who analyzes information with the accuracy and speed of multiple supercomputers.
Click to expand...

Considering that even the Classic Era features supercomputers that can calculate infinites amount of information (if you know MEI Equvilance, Energy = Information)- and I'm sure there are many other examples of supercomputers (I'm sure other supporters can find things to support this), I believe Zero should at least scale to some level of "supercomputer" in the verse.

Infinite amounts of information and supercomputers are textbook examples of Supergenius and Extraordinary Genius in our Intelligence page- so, that's why I argue that Zero should be E. Genius- as he can analyze and understand X's Buster to upgrade his own, when others cannot.
 
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Zero FRA

Bad jokes aside, Z-Era profiles make a lot of sense given how vastly different their abilities are and how much stronger they are shown to be.

I remember you were concerned how Elpizo could destroy X's body in one shot, but I think that was for the sake of the story. I mean, in the same scene, Elpizo easily restrains Zero and forces him to watch, but later when he is empowered by the Dark Elf, Zero easily beats him.
 
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TartaChocholate said:
Zero FRA

Bad jokes aside, Z-Era profiles make a lot of sense given how vastly different their abilities are and how much stronger they are shown to be.

I remember you were concerned how Elpizo could destroy X's body in one shot, but I think that was for the sake of the story. I mean, in the same scene, Elpizo easily restrains Zero and forces him to watch, but later when he is empowered by the Dark Elf, Zero easily beats him.
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It wasn't x a Corpse, there's literally no implication, Elpizo would need the Dark Elf, even Ciel implies that anyone could do it, so we're using that as a scale. We don't even know if x is putting up resistance.
 
Banjo77 said:
It wasn't x a Corpse, there's literally no implication, Elpizo would need the Dark Elf, even Ciel implies that anyone could do it, so we're using that as a scale. We don't even know if x is putting up resistance.
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My bad, I'm a bit lost on what you're trying to say. The game does mention that X is using his body as a seal on the Dark Elf and his spirit is his Cyber Elf form we see around, that's what I meant.

What you mean is that X's body was defenseless in that state and that Elpizo still needed the Dark Elf? I mean, if there's a proper justification for the sequence, that's better.
 
TartaChocholate said:
My bad, I'm a bit lost on what you're trying to say. The game does mention that X is using his body as a seal on the Dark Elf and his spirit is his Cyber Elf form we see around, that's what I meant.

What you mean is that X's body was defenseless in that state and that Elpizo still needed the Dark Elf? I mean, if there's a proper justification for the sequence, that's better.
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Are we sure about that? Although Cyber Elf used her sealing it seems to be something less physical. Whenever we see Cyber Elf doing something, she uses someone physically, Omega Elpizo or others so if this scales to the physical X
 
The Megaman.EXE Z saber chip AP stuff should be removed, this chip doesnt appear in the series until Battle Network 4 and the page itself scales him to tier 2 by battle network 2, so the point on it being consistent is just outright wrong.

Ignoring how outdated the BN pages are (along with that 4-B rating on that page entirely), the series' really shouldn't be crosscaled to each other due to different level of feats and technology going on in both series', and its really just meant to be a fun thing you can do with both copies of the games and is not intended to present them at a specific power level.

Something that I would add, is that reploid bodies by the Elf Wars/Z era are considered an entirely new model called Advanced Reploid Bodies. It's even noted in an interview that their new designs reflects the advancement of technology since the X series. They should be also be immensely stronger then the X era due to there being centuries worth of accelerated development and offscreen events going on far beyond X8 as the Elf Wars was only 100 years away from the Zero series and Zero is hundreds of years after the X series as shown in the centuries scan.

The pages on the site itself lacks accelerated development reasoning so here are from the X era alone, which in its entirety doesnt even come close to the offscreen centuries that happen before the elf wars.

Zero consistently scales to X (obviously) who:
 
AlloyAmi said:
Snip
Click to expand...
The BN stuff was just placeholder stuff for future reference for now. Even Smashtwig kinda said to ignore the Low Multi justifications in the blog for now. But it'll definitely be discussed in more depth.

Also, he does have Accelerated Development on the profiles. Maybe not that well justified, but it's there. But yeah, thanks for better justifications for that. Those will definitely have to be put in.
AlloyAmi said:
Would also like to mention Zero isn't treated as weaker, but actually stronger then Omega as he is the true soul of Zero, and Omega in X-DiVE represents him while amplified with the Dark Elf.
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High 3-A rating for Zero when??? His power is infinite!!!!!!!11111111111

But yeah, I agree.
 
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AlloyAmi said:
Its not just the blog its on the actual page rn. I don't think it should be on the actual published profile either way considering how incomplete and inconsistent the information is
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I didn't notice that. Removed it myself lol
 
AlloyAmi said:
Would also like to mention Zero isn't treated as weaker, but actually stronger then Omega as he is the true soul of Zero, and Omega in X-DiVE represents him while amplified with the Dark Elf.
Click to expand...
This is the one thing I disagree with- from a powerscaler standpoint these statements look super clear but from any other this is clearly meant to be a writing thing.

If Zero really was stronger than Omega, then Weil- the guy absolutely obsessed over making Omega as strong as he can be- and how powerful he is, and that he's the real deal superior to the fake copy- would have done something about it to make Omega even stronger, or just scrap the idea of using the original body of Zero entirely. After everything he has seen Zero can do in Zero 3, he still thinks Omega is stronger, and that Zero is stuck in a "mere copy" and a "joke"- and overall mocks Zero at every turn throughout the game. And in addition to that, he implanted Omega's personality as a means to draw out all of original body's power- by all means he is wielding the full physical strength of the original body- and he's calling Zero this "cheap fake"- RIGHT AFTER THE BOSS FIGHT. If Zero really was stronger than Omega, Weil would NOT be calling this guy some cheap knockoff after he directly witness Omega being overpowered by him.

And to support this, if Zero really was stronger than Omega+Dark Elf, why was the Dark Elf able to easily swat Zero away? And, keep in mind, Vent combines the powers of X and Zero (becoming the so called "Ultimate Reploid", which should be stronger than Zero on his own)- and yet Omega is able to contend with that kind of strength WITHOUT the Dark Elf. Flammole even states that he was sensing something entirely different from this combination of X and Zero's power- a power he believes to be stronger than it, and its confirmed that what he was referring to was Model O.

Even during the final cutscene of the game, Zero defeats Omega when the Dark Elf's power is weak- not that he just blatantly overpowers the Dark Elf.

The only conclusion this leaves us with is that when they refer to "the true strength of Zero" they don't actually mean physical strength. It's metaphorical. Throughout Zero 3, X is telling us that its the heart that counts, not the body- not because the soul is "stronger" (because if it were the case, the souls of X and Zero combined in ZX would easily defeat Omega without the Dark Elf), but because what it really means to be Zero and to use his strength is to fight for those he trusts and believes in.

Suggesting that this copy body of Zero is stronger than the real deal completely undermines the themes of the narrative.
AlloyAmi said:
Zero being stronger is also consistent with this statement i forgot to add above from Zero Official Complete Works that his new body easily has more potential then the last.
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This statement is true but by that logic, wouldn't Gohan always be stronger than Goku at all times because he has more potential than him?

Also, potential isn't necessarily just a linear powerscaley thing. A blank canvas will always have more potential to be whatever piece of art it can be than the finished painting. A college student would have more potential than an elder that's lived out their life. I don't see the difference here.
 
Migue79 said:
High 3-A rating for Zero when??? His power is infinite!!!!!!!11111111111

But yeah, I agree.
Click to expand...
Was informed offsite of something even better, but might want to save that for later.
 
The Weil stuff is really just generic villain finding their thing stronger and putting the hero down, Sigma himself constantly does this calling X like a tiny bug to him and always jobs and questions how he keeps losing despite everything he does. Even Sage Harpuia directly says Weil is just bluffing because he literally can't do anything anymore, its over. He just tries to get Zero to not destroy the body as thats the strongest thing he has on his side and obviously without that it would ruin his goals. He also used Omega as a vessel to use the Dark Elf abilities so he also would get screwed in that regard as well. He also pulls the same tactic in zero 4 with like "Can you REALLY kill me, a human? Do you want to become a maverick?!" and he generally just shit talks zero even in his death calling him a miserable doll.

the Dark Elf pushed Zero away with what appears to be its forcefields or just a release of energy, and this is Zero after he just kicked the ass of 3 phases of an amped Omega back to back to back, i would be tired too, so not really a feat against zero. we know omegas power is already equal to that of the dark elf so theres no reason zero shouldnt be stronger then it, considering he literally JUST beat omega + dark elf for 3 phases, each stronger then the last.

I will say I dont know ZX as well i can see it but ZX itself from what ive seen to a degree is somewhat contradictory or just weird in terms of original heroes scaling and lore as they are supposed to get all their intelligence and shit but also implies Z + X is needed to match everything else to a degree while other mfs are just using the data of the 4 guardians who zero absolutely BODIES in the z series along with base omega. and to a degree yeah its kinda just a bonus boss obviously they gonna gass it up but you can also just say you can beat it with other forms as well so lol. Serpent also considers your biometals to be rather insignificant compared to model W

And nah it still fits thematically. There's only 1 true zero, so only the true zero can truly utilize his true power and potential which is what the xdive statement further elaborates on and directly related to ACTUAL power. Fairy leviathan even says that fighting with omega despite his srength doesnt fire her up the same way that her fights with zero has. Even back in X2, when sigma tried making a zero recreation, zero makes it clear that there is only 1 zero, which would then be a major theme much much later once again.

I'm no dragon ball person but is Gohan not stronger then goku with the latest stuff lol?
and they reference its MINIMUM potential to be at LEAST that of the original body, and that the new body has more, which the series clearly shows and even the red hero trailer references his new hidden potential and stuff he can do with his new weapony. And its literally the same body with the same capabilities so not really the right examples to use, the only difference is one has the real soul that contains zero.
 
Weil is not stupid man, if he sees something is clearly stronger than his strongest asset, he's not gonna delude himself into thinking otherwise. If he needs a better Dark Elf vessel then he'll make one- or at least upgrade Omega to be the desired level of strength he needs. Arrogance isn't stupidity, at least in the other "generic villain moments", its typically right before they actually fight and find out the actual difference between themselves. Sage Harpuia references that Weil is bluffing about controlling all the humans and Reploids, not about the fight at hand. Otherwise, again, Zero would just be able to just finish the fight right there. It's only until the Dark Elf starts breaking free of Weil's curse where Zero was able to actually get him after the assist from the Guardians.

I don't get the strange assumption that Zero is that much stronger than the Guardians at all, they're rivals in the Zero Saga and Phantom was still able to give Zero a fight in Z3- so its not some kind of stomp- and even Harpuia was able to get better results than Zero in the first Omega fight with a couple lightning strikes compared to multiple charge slashes from Zero. Leviathan saying Zero is more fun to fight doesn't automatically mean that he's stronger than Omega- in fact- I would argue I would have a far more fun of a time playing against a person that was my equal level in a game than someone who can easily beat me.

The X Dive Statements are not very blatent at all, it simply says that the "true power of Zero" is "unknown and infinite" and the only one to rival said "power" is X. We don't get any detail at all of what "power" refers to, for example, it could be the will to fight for everlasting peace- the inner strength to sacrifice oneself for who he believes in (something I doubt Omega would understand)- or something much less concrete or quantifiable (hence "infinite") than physical strength. When they say that Omega "lacks someone to challenge and understand you as a peer", ViA does not say in what way Omega is meant to be challenged or understood- in fact you can make the argument that the "challenge" that X gives is about challenging Zero's ideals about what he fights for. RiCO says that Omega will never be equal to the "true Zero", but she never specifies in what way- the average person isn't as strong as Mike Tyson but Tyson also will never be equal to them, because he's literally not them. Nothing in these X Dive statements are clear if they're talking about physical strength or something else- and even if it was they didn't do a good job making that clear-cut. Besides, the X Dive Statement doesn't even specifically refer to Z-Era Zero, so then, as your argument implies that Zero's soul is the only difference maker that puts Zero > Omega Zero, we can make the assumption that X1 Zero is also > Omega+Dark Elf- which is obviously not true- even though X1 Zero has the same soul as Z-Era Zero.

Regardless of if we disagree on any of that, the ZX point is hard to refute- gassing up the boss fight, as you say- still resulted in how things are, like it or not. Your point about Model W making the others seem useless doesn't really mean much when its not even part of the discussion, and Model O is stated by Flammole to be something "entirely different" from Model W, and was what Flammole was searching for when Serpent said that there is an "even more powerful Biometal" hidden underground.

The Red Hero trailer only supports the idea that Zero has easily become more skilled, which is my point. Also the Goku/Gohan thing is debatable, but if your claim of "potential = power" holds true, then Gohan should always be stronger than Goku no matter what part of the story it is which is not the case.

I'm not saying that Zero doesn't scale or anything, I just think that he wins because of the difference in skill that Zero has acquired during the games, highlighted in the RH Trailer you mentioned.
 
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Smashtwig said:
The X Dive Statements are not very blatent at all, it simply says that the "true power of Zero" is "unknown and infinite" and the only one to rival said "power" is X. We don't get any detail at all of what "power" refers to, for example
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Whats the raw say, if it's power orientated the wording would most certainly implicate it.
 
I don't know DiVE particularly well, I know Mig has it so I can probably ask him.

But regardless of what the raw says, it would still contridict with the rest of my points.
 
Nah villains still gas themselves up and undermine the mc even after losing hence sigma questioning why he keeps losing cuz he thinks that hes stronger and got this new thing or tactic whatever in each game. In fact a part of their accelerated development is literally surpassing characters treated as completely superior prior as i listed in the examples above. Weil objectively tries to bluff and manipulate Zero into not destroying the body due to his original attachment to it, and ofc it would ruin his goals, thats his only chance of omega not getting destroyed. There is no more upgrading there is no 2nd chances, its literally just over and thats why hes bluffing. He thought he could continue the fight with the Dark Elf simply healing omega, so i don't see why it wouldnt apply. and you say weil would do all that yet he does none of that in zero 4 and goes for something completely different. Weil thinks the original body is what made the hero and has the power of the original zero but no hes literally proven wrong in the fight itself.

Regarding the Guardians, the 3 of them left pulled up to fight at once and Copy X thinks they are no match for him and to not even bother trying. Copy X should obviously be stronger then them and hes literally a perfect copy of x, and what does Zero say? TOO WEAK. in fact he directly says the original X was mightier then him first asking was the original x THIS weak, further showing copies never can reach the original without the original dude and that the soul is what truly unleashes their full power, just like the xdive statement says. What makes X stronger? his ideals as a true hero. Even full power Copy X is outright treated as weaker. This is something established in the series since classic that the character with the better ideals will come out on top, thats why bass would never be able to beat mega man as proto man explains in this ending. In fact the only time Bass DOES win, is when hes teaming up and fighting for something good. A fake imposter X with the wrong ideals, will never reach the true might of X, the same way Omega is just an imposter soul of zero, thats why he can never utilize the true strength of Zero. Zero has ideals that he understands what hes fighting for.

What makes Leviathan crazy about fighting Zero and finding it fun is what directly stated by her to be his strength, so that points just wrong. In fact The guardians make a consistent note of this being what makes him fun to fight: Harpuia & Fefnir

It's even suggested that hes even holding back to a degree with them, and this would fit with how he didn't want to kill the corrupted Harpuia in the end of 2 and took measures to make sure hell be ok even though Harpuia just said to just kill him. Hidden Phantom is also literally just a side quest Zero does during an an actual mission and he proves his initial thoughts even after learning all truths wrong.

Zero actually can competently fight Omega really without much issue (literally the intro stage boss too) while fefnir and levithan got hit so hard their souls got put in a drift state between life and death

The only thing Omega had going for him was regen, and Harpuia just got a free combo after he regenned a bit but omega was already weakened by Zero, so no i wouldnt use that at all.

Also first form dark elf omega completely WASHES harpuia here, with his attack doing literally nothing to omega. So zero OBJECTIVELY would need the strength to overcome this, this first phase is literally just treated like a warm up for the real power to come as well.

And regarding ZX, id rather use the source games going over this stuff in story over some extra alluded bonus content that isnt even important to the story to the degree of people debating if Model O and that stuff is even canon. (I do agree its canon but its influence is clearly no where near as important)

And not nessesarily, more potential just means it has the capacity to surpass the original, which it literally did. And I don't see how thew red hero means just skill, it shows his many new weapons that grant him a variety of new powerful attacks and combos along with them combing with chips and EX skills for stronger techniques.

xdive point ill adress in a bit but i will say its not talking about x1 zero, you can do that event with any character and the dialogues the same contextually its meant to go with z zero.
 
Chariot190 said:
Whats the raw say, if it's power orientated the wording would most certainly implicate it.
Click to expand...
Here are the raws
obviously an actual translator can help us with the imgur i provided, for now i used an ai translation to get a general idea of what it says and this this is what i got:

Edit: got confirmation from SeijiSetto on discord that for the most part its correct and they only edited a minor thing that ill add in the translation. Heres what they told me:

Even if your body is real, your soul is fake.Against you, the true Zero’s power will never be drawn out!
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i wouldn't call it "against you", but more like "if it's you, the true Zero's power will never be drawn out" [because his soul is fake]

Fixed Translation:
Yes, I am the true Zero. I am Zero.
Copies and imitations are meaningless and worthless before me.

Ah, that’s right. You might also be called Zero.
But the real Zero is something a bit different.
Isn’t that right, Player!

That’s right!
Player and the others know the real Zero better than you do!

Whether Zero is “original” or “copy” doesn’t matter!
Because we have the real Zero’s data!
And together with the Player, we’ve come this far, fighting side by side!

You might be Zero too, sure.
But when it comes to the real Zero’s strength,
there’s just no comparison!

That's right, Rico!
Now Player! Show this guy what the real deal is!

You've been babbling nonsense for a while now.
Don’t go thinking you know Zero, you phony.
The real Zero—right here in front of you—is the one and only. Got it!?

Impossible!
Am I to be defeated once again…?

Why… I am the savior…
I am Zero…

Even if your body is real, your soul is fake.
If it's you, the true Zero’s power will never be drawn out!

Zero’s power is vast and infinite.
And to match that power is a friend and rival—X.
A being that challenges, understands, and grows together.
You never had that.

Kuh…
You cunning… little… pests…

And by operating the real Zero’s Hunter Program,
you were able to draw out the true power—well done, Player!

You’re getting cooler and cooler, Player!
But it seems you still need my support a little while longer.
I’ll stick with you!

Now, now, let’s head back and take a well-earned break!


It's pretty much nearly the same from what I'm seeing but Zero's skill shouldnt matter when Player is using them because player obviously isn't zero they are just using their data to fight, its directly correlated to strength here. Not only that but they directly compare him to X, which again go back to my copy X point above. X challenging and growing with Zero is what lets them get stronger together and their strength just cant be matched by copies. Look at my accelerated development stuff from above that directly correlates to strength and zero directly is scaling to this as he fights alongside X throughout the many conflicts. Being alongside X has allowed him to grow and vice versa.
 
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That like, isnt saying skill though. They use chikara which can very well mean actual physical strength, far more often than what youre suggesting.

It uses pretty concrete wording in regards to power too in that only his soul can actually draw it out properly..
 
Chariot190 said:
That like, isnt saying skill though. They use chikara which can very well mean actual physical strength, far more often than what youre suggesting.

It uses pretty concrete wording in regards to power too in that only his soul can actually draw it out properly..
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yeah i know, im arguing FOR it being strength and that zeros physically stronger. smashtwig is arguing that hes weaker and its all just skill
 
AlloyAmi said:
yeah i know, im arguing FOR it being strength and that zeros physically stronger. smashtwig is arguing that hes weaker and its all just skill
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Well

Youre probably right ig
 
Hmm… I don’t know about using the JP translation for source material.

Given the game was made by Capcom Taiwan -a Chinese subsidiary- and it was first released there and Southeast Asia, I’d say either the Chinese or English scripts take priority over the Japanese one in this case. It’s exactly like Sonic Colors where the English script takes priority over the Japanese script despite being a Japanese IP from a Japanese company.
 
It being released there first and the original script being chinese, aren't mutual. There's definitely been cases of games releasing in certain regions first, but the original source script is japanese. Metroid Dread would be an example of a spanish company? Or maybe italian idk, using a japanese script to make the game. Do we know what the original script was written in?
Though really I don't think it matters, the japanese script is only more specific due to having words that entail or convey specific meanings. It technically says the same thing, just that the "power" used is clarified.

But in such a case, what's the chinese script say? Chinese ain't that much different, not that I know it that well but I do know they have words for specific connotations too.
 
I actually found a chinese video with translated english captions and to no surprise it says the exact same things.





tldr, og zero data/soul = true power as og zero data is the REAL deal
 
It's 100% not skill given the bio for him says he's actually equal in skill.
Chinese sucks tho, the word according to dictionaries (力量 (lìliàng)) can mean statistical strength, but it's a more broader word, not as specific as japanese making it pretty clearly raw power.

Though of course it can still mean that, coupled with japanese I'd say arguing semantics is pointless. If they meant something else I'm sure they could've used a word that actually conveys that more clearly.
 
Some of these points are establishing the fact that Zero scales in AP- which I have already made clear is the case. Zero DOES scale to Omega- anything reliant on the fact that others can't hurt him but Zero can supports that and I'm not going to take it that far by saying that Zero doesn't scale at all. My concern is that Zero should just be unquantifiably weaker than Omega Zero+Dark Elf (though I'd argue that base Omega Zero is stronger too), not that he doesn't scale at all.

However, a the rest of this I believe is misinterpreting the actual meaning behind the words they say when it's meant to be metaphorical, instead just taking things at face value. I also feel like some of my most important points were kinda just... ignored? I'll try to repeat them again though, after all we're literally sending text walls here and I'm sure I probably missed things too.

It's a trope to have characters go "what is strength" or "each attack is infused with [insert non-concrete thing here]". By your logic, as per the Classic Mega Man statement you posted- Mega Man Classic should be able to defeat Zero in the Sigma Flashback or an hypothetical X that didn't get Light's training- and those people at those points have nothing to "defend" either. Obviously, Mega Man isn't going to beat an evil Zero in combat, even though he has the "better ideals". There are other examples in anime of this as well- example, in Yu Yu Hakusho, Genkai has the "better ideals" compared to Toguro- Genkai loses. Yusuke has "better ideals" than Sensui- Yusuke loses. When characters go "you'll never beat him because he "fights the good fight" or whatever, it doesn't refer to strength, it refers to the fact that these characters typically always find a way to overcome something that is greater than them because of their personality.

I agree that the difference maker between X and Copy X or Zero and Omega Zero- IS the person inhabiting those bodies, that being the personality and soul, but those contribute nothing in terms of actual physical strength. If Zero was literally referring to the actual power level of Copy X when he says "too weak", it completely undermines that the difference is in the ideals of the person- because if it turns out that the real X was just stronger the whole time, then "too weak" just makes sense and it has nothing to do with ideals or whatever it may be. Of course, in a site like this, these things don't actually have meaning, which leaves the only concrete difference being skill (something that a personality/mind CAN control). Going off your Copy X point, Copy X specifically says skill is the main highlight of Zero- AFTER their Z1 fight, with no mention of "overwhelming strength" or anything else. Specifically skill. If Zero was that much stronger, then when he fought Zero directly, he would have said "Zero, an incredibly powerful Reploid" instead of "a Reploid with terrifying combat skills" after losing. And before you say that Copy X Mk II is a "revised" version, the "revision" was literally a downgrade- Weil put a trap in him to prevent him from going Armed Phemoneon- the "revision" is actually a nerf. After all, it's Weil's plan to rule Neo Arcadia by getting Copy X out of the picture so there's no need to make him stronger. And to pre-emptively counter the argument that "MK II" is is different person, the same bio says that he was "revived"- and this conversation supports it.

The bluffing scene... is also completely misinterpreted. When you say Weil "objectively" bluffs- that's true, because Harpuia says that directly after Weil says "I hold the lives of humans and Reploids in my hands". But that's the key point, Harpuia saying this right after that sentence suggests that Weil is bluffing about the fact that he can control all Reploids on the planet with the Dark Elf+Omega's powers. Then, X goes and says "while the Dark Elf's power is weak"- finish him off. Suggesting that Zero wouldn't be able to do so if the Dark Elf isn't being weakened, as suggested when Dark Elf swats Zero away before it started breaking free from Weil's curse. After all, this is the same Dark Elf that can make a fodder Panetheon a threat to Zero- and Elpizo, a non-combatant, into the final boss of a game.

When it comes to the Guardians, I don't think you understood what I was trying to say so I'll try again. I'm talking about the amount of strength, too much or too little often makes competition less fun, Zero for them is that level of strength they like. In Omega's case, Leviathan and Fefnir weren't having fun because they were getting completely stomped, after all, in their last fight with Zero back in Zero 2, they were able to damage him- and they had "fun". And they can't damage Omega. So, by your logic, Zero 2 (heck even Zero 1) Zero would be stronger than Omega as well, but then Leviathan or Fefnir shouldn't be able to damage Z2 Zero at all. When it comes to their interactions with Omega, it can make sense that Zero can damage Omega, while the Guardians can't but still harm Zero. For the sake of the argument, if we rate the Guardians a 1, Zero a 2, and Omega a 3- and the difference of two results in "no scratches or dents, no selling, etc." It satisfies the fact that Zero can damage Omega when Guardians cannot, and that the Guardians (Phantom) can damage Zero in Z3.

The point of the potential thing is just that potential doesn't equal power at the current moment. There is no proof that Zero surpassed Omega in that moment in specifically physical strength- you kinda just claim he does. Also, potential can mean a whole bunch of different things. For example, Person A has two arms while Person B only has one. Person A would obviously have more potential to do more things, but it doesn't mean that Person A's right arm would win against Person B's right arm in arm wrestling. Potential is a meaningless word without further elaboration and the proof you gave (the Red Hero trailer) was simply Zero making use of new weapons... which takes... skill

Also, Weil DID make something that's stronger than Zero. Ragnarok. The thing that literally took Zero out at the end of Zero 4 by merely being destroyed. This is further proven when pieces of Ragnarok became Model W, which are stronger than Model Z. And speaking of ZX- I don't see the part where Model O isn't part of the source material. The OST Booklet merely explains what the source material (that being, Flammole's dialogue) was talking about. So, we straight up are relying on source material here. In fact, I'd claim that it's more valid than X Dive material, something that has to broadly look into the material of all Mega Man media- and more suspect to getting some facts wrong on accident, while the OST Booklet is made directly by Inti Creates who constructed the narrative of the Zero/ZX series- made by comparison very soon after the game's release when memories would be fresher. But regardless of even that, we don't even need the OST Booklet- the fight is straight up shown on screen that Omega Zero without the Dark Elf can fight Vent- who should be all means be stronger than Zero.

Regardless of who is right on any other point, this just... stands, regardless of whether you like it or not- it's there and it can't just be brushed off with "I'd prefer we don't use this" when it is legitimate material.

Chariot190 said:
It's 100% not skill given the bio for him says he's actually equal in skill.
Click to expand...
Sorry but this is a bit of a misunderstanding- the bio refers to the fact that he's taking Zero's original body (X Series / anytime before Elf Wars), therefore, takes all the strength and skills from the original body. In fact, that same bio states that he has all of Zero's battle skills AND overwhelming strength- so even if it was talking about Z-Era Zero, the bio states that they are equal in both skill and strength. You might have mistakenly left out the second part and kept the first part of that bio.

Ami said that the dialogue contextualizes it as Z-Era Zero, but I... don't see it in any of the dialogue- it just says "Zero", who should have the same "good ideals" in the X-Era as the Z-Era. Even if it wasn't X-Era or whatever era it may be, the body was taken and used as Omega- before Zero gets this copy body, which would then build up more experience and skill- the proof being just everything I've been saying.

-----

We can literally just resolve this by going "Zero has fought non-stop since far before the final Omega fight in Z3, therefore he was in a weakened state by the time he fought him" or something like that, which would satisfy both of our claims.

Of course we can always just agree to disagree- this stuff really isn't that serious to be honest. Plus, I got a lot of stuff in my personal life that is just... super anxiety inducing so, I really don't mind if we just disagree and leave it at that because I need to destress so badly for idk how long.
 
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