MASSIVE SPIDER-MAN DOWNGRADE TO END ALL DOWNGRADES

[The_Impress]

ok title is clickbait. sorta.

Basically, time and time again I have seen this... weirdass narrative on Vs. Threads, which goes along the lines of "Bro you can't even touch Spider-Man, he'll precog-no-jutsu you to death in 5 million different ways and his spider-sense will ROFLSTOMP your character"

This is, as you can probably guess, wank.

Fact of the matter is, Spider-Sense is SO ******* INCONSISTENT that it just, doesn't exist in comics 90% of the times, that's the whole meme of "Uh hello Spider-Sense??", yet our Spider-Man page just, fails to acknowledge this, and I think it plays a part in making this narrative so prevalent on the wiki.

So I want an addition to the page's weakness section, that goes like:

• Weaknesses: Spider-Sense is extremely inconsistent, and often enough wouldn't be enough to mitigate all attacks heading towards Spider-Man's way, or any at all.
  • Spider-Sense Disruption: Spider-Man's Spider Sense can lose its effectiveness if it is blocked or temporarily weakened by specialized equipment or certain drugs. It also would not trigger if it detects something that is not registered as a threat like the Spider-Man clones or the Venom symbiote and its offspring and Anti-Venom. When deprived of his spider-sense, Spider-Man becomes vulnerable to surveillance and attack, and web-slinging requires most of his concentration. This weakness is resolved after embracing The Other, making it harder for his Spider Sense to be disrupted.
  • Ethyl Chloride: Perhaps as a side effect of gaining his powers, Spider-Man is susceptible to the pesticide ethyl chloride. This chemical is frequently used as a weapon by the Spider-Slayers.

For those asking for "Source??" and "Scans???", well, the source is this, this and honestly, probably this.

Like, it's just so ******* transparently not a thing, that I can honestly bet you can pick up any comic prominently featuring Spider-Man, and see him getting tagged by some nobody. Everyone and their mom can hit Spider-Man, so it can only result in two explanations possible:

• Everyone in Marvel Comics is FASTER THAN Spider-Sense OR Everyone randomly has an unsaid precog resist
• It just isn't a thing 99% of the time.

So yeah.

This would also mean btw, all matches should PROBABLY be removed, since Spider-Sense was usually a core argument.

---

Edit:​

So after a bunch of deliberation, the above weakness has been changed to

Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

proposed by @BakiHanma18 and @CharlesZaGreat

 

[Ebihara]

Following

 

[Armorchompy]

I think Spider-Sense is generally implied to at least take a part in Spidey's dodging abilities and there's dime a dozen examples of it coming into play in various situations. So I don't think "doesn't exist 90% of the time" or the "or any at all" bit in the weaknesses is correct. It is, most of the time, an at least somewhat tangible factor in his fighting ability. On the other hand it's absolutely true that Spider-Man is very very far from impossible to hit and there's just as many examples of unskilled fighters landing a lucky shot on him and skilled fighters straight-up overwhelming as there are of him dodging all of a foe's attacks, so I agree with the general intent of the thread.

But you still probably want some scans of Spidey being hit by random things to put in the profile, otherwise the CRT is just a "dude trust me". I know it's right, people who don't know Marvel won't.

 

[The_Impress]

I'll wait abit more for consensus before I rewrite my Weakness proposal.

I don't disagree with Armor's points, but yeah.

 

[The_Impress]

Oh yeah and I also wanna address: I don't think Spidey getting hit is PIS at all, because this is just, a core part of the character, every single one of his stories involves him at least tanking hits from some random villain-of-the-week, and this isn't even getting into like, the esoteric shit Spider-Sense can do like morality and intent-based sensing, which just, only happens once in a blue moon.

But on the wiki and vs. threads, we have acted and proposed the BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASES of Spider-Sense is what constantly happens in comics and thus should also be used in fights.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Read a few old Spider-Man stuff in the past and yeah, he's been tagged on several occasions (there's a reason why we scale characters to him) so I don't mind the general addition that the Spider Sense isn't always going to save him (given many of his villains have hit him). Obviously I can't gauge the difference of how many times his been tagged compared to not but I think it's something worth being discussed

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

But on the wiki and vs. threads, we have acted and proposed the BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASES of Spider-Sense is what constantly happens in comics and thus should also be used in fights.

That's what we do for pretty much everyone, Spider-man isn't going around throwing tier 8 punches casually those are specific instances that represent a sort of consistent limit to his strenght, neither is Hulk casually destroying planets with a single punch, and don't get me started on actual powers and abilities that some writers simple forget they exist or ignore at all, and so on. Every fighter is assumed to be on their best state, and in it's best state spider-sense is not supposed to fail.
How would it work in a fight anyways? Are we supposed to assume Spider sense has a 20% chance of activating?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's more so a case by case thing; but there are definitely some obvious weaknesses to it. Getting hit by a car and failing to react to it usually something I'd probably call PIS, but I do agree that there are obvious limits to it. It commons limited when he is dealing with emotional trauma, and of course it is countered against other Spider sense users. And pesticide is Spiderman's kryptonite yeah. Spider Sense is basically based on an ability Spiders have IRL, though in Spiderman's case; it is much stronger. But it's not like it enables him to outright speed blitz the likes of Captain America or Daredevil.

 

[The_Impress]

That's what we do for pretty much everyone, Spider-man isn't going around throwing tier 8 punches casually those are specific instances that represent a sort of consistent limit to his strenght, neither is Hulk casually destroying planets with a single punch, and don't get me started on actual powers and abilities that some writers simple forget they exist or ignore at all, and so on.

Tiering =/= Spider-Sense, he just gets hit constantly, in every comic he's in. It's just not how Spider-Sense works by ANY writer's view.

There ARE authors who think, Hulk at his max power is mostly planetary, but there are factors which limit him from destroying the planet (range, power variability and honestly just personality).

So yeah whataboutism and nulling context at that.

Every fighter is assumed to be on their best state,

Where is this written in context of feat showcase, in the rules of the wiki?

and in it's best state spider-sense is not supposed to fail.

And where is it written that Spider-Sense is constantly active and has never failed ever, and that Spider-Man's villains have actually never landed a single hit on him? Because I want to read that comic, get to the next issue, and see the writer eat their words and have him hit by a rando character, if they exist exactly how you say they do. So please, give me a reference for this, Suig.

We are here to represent characters, we AREN'T here to write hyper-powered versions of characters that don't exist for some ulterior motive. If it was the latter, nobody would have a weakness section, ever. We deleted Composites off the wiki to get rid of these very hypotheticals.

 

[The_Impress]

It's more so a case by case thing; but there are definitely some obvious weaknesses to it. Getting hit by a car and failing to react to it usually something I'd probably call PIS, but I do agree that there are obvious limits to it. It commons limited when he is dealing with emotional trauma, and of course it is countered against other Spider sense users. And pesticide is Spiderman's kryptonite yeah. Spider Sense is basically based on an ability Spiders have IRL, though in Spiderman's case; it is much stronger. But it's not like it enables him to outright speed blitz the likes of Captain America or Daredevil.

I disagree immensely, there are no cases that are always consistent, it just doesn't work at times, and especially not in these hyper-specific super strong variations like morality detection n shit. Again it's just, not consistent. No writer thinks that it is something that happens all the time or ESPECIALLY flawlessly. Please direct me to a single writer who has written Spider-Man like this for an extended period of time.

It's SPIDER-MAN, this isn't like, Shang-Chi or Taskmaster or something. People SCALE to him. Random ass ************* that are functionally humans with magic weapons can tag him. It's his ROGUES GALLERY.

 

[Stefano4444]

But it's not like it enables him to outright speed blitz the likes of Captain America or Daredevil.

Beside isn't Spider-Sense only useful in defense by reacting and dodging incoming attacks? He doesn't get faster.

 

[The_Impress]

Beside isn't Spider-Sense only useful in defense by reacting and dodging incoming attacks? He doesn't get faster.

In its more exaggerated feats, Spider-Sense can gauge morality of utter randos, or do shit like

Can vaguely sense how many people are coming, how fast, and how close they are

that one is currently on the file.

This isn't a consistent thing or showcase of what Spider-Sense does. We currently TREAT that yeah this is what Spider-Man is totally about, a god who can foresaw everything his villains ever did and is an untouchable blitzer against everyone who had the misfortune of doing crime in New York City.

I'm sorry but this is just the classic comics snowball wank, every battleboard comic fan in existence tries to pass off this shit as legit in vs. debating to beat a shounen character or something I think after years of the wiki and hell decades of the scene existing, we'll be past this, but nope, seems like we're still not.

 

[StarShooter80]

Seems logical I agree

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'll wait for the rewritten proposal, but for now I agree anyways.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's what we do for pretty much everyone

No we don't. It's what some people do when indexing, it's not a site standard.

Spider-man isn't going around throwing tier 8 punches casually those are specific instances that represent a sort of consistent limit to his strenght

Because he holds back. If that wasn't the case the rating wouldn't be legit.

neither is Hulk casually destroying planets with a single punch

Because Hulk's power varies and he goes out of his way to not kill people even at his most savage.

and don't get me started on actual powers and abilities that some writers simple forget they exist or ignore at all

If powers get obviously retconned we remove them.

Every fighter is assumed to be on their best state

No they're not. We have the definition of outliers for a reason.

How would it work in a fight anyways? Are we supposed to assume Spider sense has a 20% chance of activating?

"He's very good at dodging but not infallible" isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[The_Impress]

If you want "How this would play out in a vs. debate", Spider-Sense gets nerfed from a "Will fuckstomp/be the core winning factor" in Spidey matches to "ye he has this decent edge against the opponents".

i.e. You can now actually use Comics!Spider-Man in vs. matches.

And I frankly just, don't care about what other verses do. If you think they're wanking their pages, please make a downgrade thread for them, in my experiences of doing that the supporters mostly just end up agreeing "yeah this is probaby exaggerated". I hate this weirdass arms race of upgrades we have going for verses now, where if someone gets a stupid P&A listing or omits a weakness from a page, everyone wants to do the same thing to their own verses instead of just, fixing the original error.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Tiering =/= Spider-Sense, he just gets hit constantly, in every comic he's in. It's just not how Spider-Sense works by ANY writer's view.

There ARE authors who think, Hulk at his max power is mostly planetary, but there are factors which limit him from destroying the planet (range, power variability and honestly just personality).

So yeah whataboutism and nulling context at that.

Where is this written in context of feat showcase, in the rules of the wiki?

And where is it written that Spider-Sense is constantly active and has never failed ever, and that Spider-Man's villains have actually never landed a single hit on him? Because I want to read that comic, get to the next issue, and see the writer eat their words and have him hit by a rando character, if they exist exactly how you say they do. So please, give me a reference for this, Suig.

We are here to represent characters, we AREN'T here to write hyper-powered versions of characters that don't exist for some ulterior motive. If it was the latter, nobody would have a weakness section, ever. We deleted Composites off the wiki to get rid of these very hypotheticals.

Tiering =/= Spider-Sense, he just gets hit constantly, in every comic he's in. It's just not how Spider-Sense works by ANY writer's view.

I'm not saying tiering is equal to an ability, I'm comparing their consistency.

There ARE authors who think, Hulk at his max power is mostly planetary, but there are factors which limit him from destroying the planet (range, power variability and honestly just personality).

Like he wasn't capable of destroying a meteor 2 times the size of Earth with "his limited range", I will remind you tier 5 is Green Hulk's base level the power variability doesn't affect anything.

Where is this written in context of feat showcase, in the rules of the wiki?

Does it need to be written? So now we have to assume the characters start the fight tired after days of work? Injured? We assume both fighters start in optimal conditions.

And where is it written that Spider-Sense is constantly active and has never failed ever, and that Spider-Man's villains have actually never landed a single hit on him? Because I want to read that comic, get to the next issue, and see the writer eat their words and have him hit by a rando character, if they exist exactly how you say they do. So please, give me a reference for this, Suig.

Where was it ever said that Spider sense needs to be activated? The reason why it's so good is the fact it's passive. Failing being a inconsistency made by the writers is not the same as the ability being described as being unreliable, many abilities in game like settings are described as having a 50% chance of activating but not spider sense.

We are here to represent characters, we AREN'T here to write hyper-powered versions of characters that don't exist for some ulterior motive. If it was the latter, nobody would have a weakness section, ever. We deleted Composites off the wiki to get rid of these very hypotheticals.

You thought spider sense is being misrepresented in VS threads it's not "Hyper-powered" that ability is shown as being part of his arsenal as a base ability and surely no one mentioned "Composites". And if we are here to judge someone by how many times they used the ability vs the times where they could have used but didn't we might has well start reviewing the entire wiki.
In a vs an ability that is described as "unreliable" is the same as not existing at all because or we assume it works or we assume it doesn't work because we choose either the best of the worst outcome.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

No we don't. It's what some people do when indexing, it's not a site standard.

What? So the rules must acknowledge someone as having a tier for holding back, weakened by being tired or injured? As far as I know we are supposed to assume optimal conditions tier and ability wise

Because he holds back. If that wasn't the case the rating wouldn't be legit.

Because Hulk's power varies and he goes out of his way to not kill people even at his most savage.

We assume he holds back in DP not AP as we assume he is constantly punching with at least tier 5 power.

If powers get obviously retconned we remove them.

Not what I'm talking about, abilities that one writter creates the next one forgets and brought back again, characters with dozens of abilities rarely showcase them all even more so in Marvel/DC with writers being inconsistent

No they're not. We have the definition of outliers for a reason.

What do outliers have to do with this? In a VS thread we assume Spiderman's punches are tier 8 because that's what is indexed in his profile what we don't index is how strong are his punches after he starts getting tired or injured.

"He's very good at dodging but not infallible" isn't exactly rocket science.

Huh huh how do you decide when his spider sense works and when it doesn't if let's say a character has an attack that can kill spiderman but can't or doesn't use often how would you assume that would work? He either dodges or he is hit and loses, we don't have absolutre values to use in a VS we assume based on the abilities either working or not an ability described as unreliable will just be assumed as not there at all because we can't actually simulate the battle in a way we can say he dodges only 50% of the times.

 

[The_Impress]

Like he wasn't capable of destroying a meteor 2 times the size of Earth with "his limited range", I will remind you tier 5 is Green Hulk's base level the power variability doesn't affect anything.

Grey Hulk is currently getting downgraded for that very feat thank you very much.

Does it need to be written? So now we have to assume the characters start the fight tired after days of work? Injured? We assume both fighters start in optimal conditions.

That is REMOTELY not the same as meta-reasoning. We assume they're fighting in-canon, in their best form. We aren't assuming they're starting in THE BEST POSSIBLE FEATS WE AS VERSUS DEBATERS PICKED FOR THEM.

This is like, the feats equivalent of bloodlusting a character.

Where was it ever said that Spider sense needs to be activated? The reason why it's so good is the fact it's passive. Failing being a inconsistency made by the writers is not the same as the ability being described as being unreliable, many abilities in game like settings are described as having a 50% chance of activating but not spider sense.

Nonsensical statements that barely have anything to do with the thread.

Also if "failing is something made up by the writers", buddy, the WHOLE VERSE is made by the writers. What they say, goes. It is passively activated, but it barely ******* activates. That's the whole crux of the issue.

You thought spider sense is being misrepresented in VS threads it's not "Hyper-powered" that ability is shown as being part of his arsenal as a base ability and surely no one mentioned "Composites".

It's a hyper-powered ability in the sense it is not REMOTELY active as we pretend it to be.

And if we are here to judge someone by how many times they used the ability vs the times where they could have used but didn't we might has well start reviewing the entire wiki.

Please do.

And honestly, I don't even think most of the wiki does wacky shit like this.

In a vs an ability that is described as "unreliable" is the same as not existing at all because or we assume it works or we assume it doesn't work because we choose either the best of the worst outcome.

This is a HORRENDOUS way to vs. debate, also something we don't do.

Genuinely poor arguments imo. Please read any site policy page. I don't think these points stand at all, again all of them are whataboutisms or just, contradictory roundabout statements that end up saying nothing at all. Also stuff I addressed already so yeah just, redundant.

 

[Armorchompy]

What? So the rules must acknowledge someone as having a tier for holding back, weakened by being tired or injured? As far as I know we are supposed to assume optimal conditions tier and ability wise

You misunderstood what I said. Spider-Man isn't always fighting at High 8-C because he chooses not to, not (solely) because his power is inconsistent. So your comparison wasn't apt.

We assume he holds back in DP not AP as we assume he is constantly punching with at least tier 5 power.

That is not a thing. "DP" is not something the wiki separates from AP.

Not what I'm talking about, abilities that one writter creates the next one forgets and brought back again, characters with dozens of abilities rarely showcase them all even more so in Marvel/DC with writers being inconsistent

Most abilities can just not be used, Spider-Sense is a passive. It failing to do something is an anti-feat.

What do outliers have to do with this? In a VS thread we assume Spiderman's punches are tier 8 because that's what is indexed in his profile what we don't index is how strong are his punches after he starts getting tired or injured.

What do outliers have to do with a power sometimes being much stronger than it commonly is? Hard to say.

Huh huh how do you decide when his spider sense works and when it doesn't if let's say a character has an attack that can kill spiderman but can't or doesn't use often how would you assume that would work? He either dodges or he is hit and loses, we don't have absolutre values to use in a VS we assume based on the abilities either working or not an ability described as unreliable will just be assumed as not there at all because we can't actually simulate the battle in a way we can say he dodges only 50% of the times.

You go "he may be able to dodge this via precog", and try to figure out how much this changes things. Don't act like VS threads are an exact science.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Grey Hulk is currently getting downgraded for that very feat thank you very much.

I think you mean upgraded.

That is REMOTELY not the same as meta-reasoning. We assume they're fighting in-canon, in their best for. We aren't assuming they're starting in THE BEST POSSIBLE FEATS WE AS VERSUS DEBATERS PICKED FOR THEM.

Who said that? We assume he hits with the same tier as it's indexed not some outlier, and we assume his abilities work as they should, we aren't assuming that a character might fail in activating the abilites we know he has. Spider sense is not something that consistenly fails to certain scenarios, some writers have it activate when he needs it some don't.

Nonsensical statements that barely have anything to do with the thread.

Also if "failing is something made up by the writers", buddy, the WHOLE VERSE is made by the writers. It is passively activated, but it barely ******* activates. That's the whole crux of the issue.

When I said that I meant by the specific writer that wrote the specific scene where it didn't activate. Also called it "barely" is wrong when it activates often just not always.

It's a hyper-powered ability in the sense it is not REMOTELY active as we pretend it to be.

Abilities only have 2 possibilities either they fail or they activate, the fact the writers add inconsistency to it is not how the ability is supposed to work, if a character has the ability to shoot lasers then that's what will happen we can't just assume it will fail or shoot ballons instead.

Please do.

It would be hypocrite of me to do it when I believe it is wrong.

And honestly, I don't even think most of the wiki does wacky shit like this.

Very often many abilities are used in some ways a few times and others the writer forgets that because it would go against the plot he wants to make, writers love to see Peter suffer so if they had to act like his Spider sense will always work then their plot to have Peter be injured to overcame a difficulty will never happen.

This is a HORRENDOUS way to vs. debate, also something we don't do.

Genuinely poor arguments imo.

It is either Spider sense works and he dodges or he doesn't and he is hit injured and or killed, we can't measure how many times can a character be hit before getting a critical injury it's not an absolute we have to assume that the one with the best odds at hitting an attack that can potencially kill the other will win

 

[The_Impress]

Suig. Okay, get me:

• A single word on the wiki's policy pages that says whatever you're saying is a "rule on this wiki"
• A single scan that shows ONE WRITER that believes Spider-Man can dodge every single attack thrown onto him, and doesn't contradict it.

If you can not get them both, first one is you just either lying or don't know the rules of the wiki and opted to make shit up on the spot, and the second one is your subjective opinion with a metric ton of anti-feats AT BEST, and just trying to enforce a community-enforced feats-wank for Spider-Man and comic characters, and NO ONE ELSE, AT WORST. Either way, both of them are not valid points whatsoever.

And as such I will not be responding to them until you get me these scans, because otherwise it's an exercise in madness. Rest I'll leave to anyone's better judgement, and thread moderator's call as to what constitutes redundancy.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You misunderstood what I said. Spider-Man isn't always fighting at High 8-C because he chooses not to, not (solely) because his power is inconsistent. So your comparison wasn't apt.

I wasn't refering to holding back but if he gets injured or tired it affects his ability to hit with tier 8 level

That is not a thing. "DP" is not something the wiki separates from AP.

Not in the tiers but cannonically we do, it would by scientifically impossible for a character with tier 4 physical power not to cause any destruction to the planet with an attack, but we assume that charactrer is using that level unless it's specifically stated that he isn't using all his power, even if there is no destructon caused by the attack.

Most abilities can just not be used, Spider-Sense is a passive. It failing to do something is an anti-feat.

It's not the same thing, being a passive ability means it either activates or it doesn't there is no middle ground in a battle, we know Spiderman cannonically have that ability but if the ability is not described as failling and only shown to have failled then either the ability is there or it isn't because the whole "it activates sometimes" it's our headcannon that we are using to try to explain why the ability failed.

What do outliers have to do with a power sometimes being much stronger than it commonly is? Hard to say.

I wasn't talking about canon material but VS thread wise, in a fight we don't just go around assuming Spider-man will have different power levels because in a fight we know Spider-man clearly is shown as causing different levels of damage, it's very common for an hero to be losing and out of nowhere starting punching and injuring the other withotu any explanation, but we have no way of considering that in a VS battle thread.

You go "he may be able to dodge this via precog", and try to figure out how much this changes things. Don't act like VS threads are an exact science.

Exacly in the end, when the ability is somewhat unreliable then it can't be conclusive, if there is another way to win without that ability then he wins if there isn't then he loses because that ability will be assumed not to work or be a way to win by itself.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Suig. Okay, get me:

• A single word on the wiki's policy pages that says whatever you're saying is a "rule on this wiki"
• A single scan that shows ONE WRITER that believes Spider-Man can dodge every single attack thrown onto him, and doesn't contradict it.

If you can not get them both, first one is you just either lying or don't know the rules of the wiki and opted to make shit up on the spot, and the second one is your subjective opinion with a metric ton of anti-feats AT BEST, and just trying to enforce a community-enforced feats-wank for Spider-Man and comic characters, and NO ONE ELSE, AT WORST. Either way, both of them are not valid points whatsoever.

And as such I will not be responding to them until you get me these scans, because otherwise it's an exercise in madness. Rest I'll leave to anyone's better judgement, and thread moderator's call as to what constitutes redundancy.

I find it funny you talk about me bringing scans when you brought none yourself.

 

[The_Impress]

I find it funny you talk about me bringing scans when you brought none yourself.

Yeah because my shit is either self-evident or a negative.

You're asking me to prove a negative in site policy and PIS standard, and shit that's just self-evident in terms of the anti-feats themselves.

Why DOESN'T the profile already have scans to justify against these blatant facts or negatives, if you don't want this revision to go through? Give me these scans and I'll get this thread closed right away.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I've always seen spider sense as danger sense, meaning even if he knows danger is coming he doesn't know exactly from where or when... Making it act more like analytical predictions from what I know

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yeah because my shit is either self-evident or a negative.

You're asking me to prove a negative in site policy and writing standard, and shit that's just self-evident in terms of the anti-feats themselves.

Why DOESN'T the profile already have scans to justify against these blatant facts or negatives, if you don't want this revision to go through? Give me these scans and I'll get this thread closed right away.

You have to prove if something is wrong when that's accepted, you have to prove the ability fails often when right now it's accepted it works always.
I wasn't even the first to bring about the fact you brought no scans why you going at me? The only reason you think it's self evident it's because you are assuming everyone here knows and reads Spider-Man comics where spider sense failed.

 

[The_Impress]

The only reason you think it's self evident it's because you are assuming everyone here knows and reads Spider-Man comics where spider sense failed.

Yeah I do expect people to read the most prominent hero in all of Marvel Comics when they input on a Marvel Comics revision thread concerning the character. That's how... verse supporters work.

why you going at me?

Because you still brought it up lmao. What, is there a magical rule telling of the pecking order now of who I respond to in a thread?

Anyways derailment, give me the scans or that's that.

I'll call it a night btw, will check this thread tomorrow

 

[Excellence616]

Makes sense, I agree

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yeah I do expect people to read the most prominent hero in all of Marvel Comics when they input on a Marvel Comics revision thread concerning the character. That's how... verse supporters work.

You are acting as if knowledgeable members are the only ones who comment in this thread, and regardless of wither they read or not you always should have scans and references.

Because you still brought it up lmao. What, is there a magical rule telling of the pecking order now of who I respond to in a thread?

I brought it up because it's true, I brought it up because you were being an hypocrite by requesting scans from me when you had none.

Anyways derailment, give me the scans or that's that.

I'll call it a night btw, will check this thread tomorrow

You are requesting me to at least imput an entire book of scans proving that a writer didn't contradict the passive ability to dodge danger, even worse at the same time I have to prove that it failed duo to an inconsistency instead of the character simply being faster than Spider-Man's danger sense.
That's impossible, first I can't just go around posting an entire comic here. Second, all you can do is create an head cannon based on other comic feats to say this character should not be fast enough to blitz the spider sense and as such it failed because spider sense is flawed.

 

[Tomfer]

Everyone randomly has an unsaid precog resist

I agree with this, and everyone who won against Taskmaster has resistance to Analytical Prediction at Supergenius level too.

 

[The_Impress]

You are acting as if knowledgeable members are the only ones who comment in this thread

Yes, in a revision requiring verse knowledge they should be the only ones inputting.

How the absolute **** can a non-verse supporter argue consistency??? If I haven't read One Piece (I haven't), what the absolute **** do I know about what Luffy or someone does all the time??? If someone showed me a scan of him getting harmed by fall damage or something, and then said "Yeah this is consistent Luff's 9-B max" I'd be like 'yeah sure if you say so man, doesn't sound legit but I haven't seen a single ******* thing to say otherwise.'

People who haven't read the verse can contribute on THREAD LOGIC, POLICY, or AESTHETIC ELEMENTS. NOWHERE, unless you work in a verse that doesn't have any supporters (or staff supporters more specifically), WILL YOU SEE A RANDO GO "Yeah I haven't read this shit at all but somehow I know what this character does all the time. ". That is the kinda shit that happened in some of the most rigged and nonsensical downgrade revisions that got ridiculed and overturned for this very reason.

and regardless of wither they read or not you always should have scans and references.

I brought it up because it's true, I brought it up because you were being an hypocrite by requesting scans from me when you had none.

Bro you are asking me to give scans for shit like, "Has Spider-Man has been hit by Rhino ever, in the decades of history of the two characters existing???"

This is the pettiest waste of time I have ever seen, you're sulking because I asked you produce a scan of the insane policies and mechanics you claim are widespread, meanwhile you KNOW YOURSELF, AS YOU ARE SAYING PRIOR, that you KNOW Spider-Sense fails all the ******* time, yet you want me to produce a scan of it?

Read a ******* file on this wiki. That's your scan.

You are requesting me to at least imput an entire book of scans proving that a writer didn't contradict the passive ability to dodge danger, even worse at the same time I have to prove that it failed duo to an inconsistency instead of the character simply being faster than Spider-Man's danger sense.

Burden of proof be like.

I want one scan, I am confident you can't produce one scan that doesn't get contradicted later in the run, unless the appearance is minor enough that the feat only exists in panel. If you can't post the scan, give me the comic reference and I'll check it myself.

Also you don't have to prove that "it failed duo to an inconsistency instead of the character simply being faster than Spider-Man's danger sense." exactly. You have to prove that EVERY SINGLE TIME a character has hit Spider-Man, ever, they were either faster than him, it was because the character was faster than Spider-Sense, there was a mechanic, or it was a minority thing that only happened once in a blue moon.

Is that insane? Is that too much? Well yeah, because it is WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING OUT OF THE BLUE.

You can post your "book of scans" when it comes to that.

That's impossible, first I can't just go around posting an entire comic here.

Bro just give me the issue number, use any semblance of common sense instead of just spamming in a response.

Second, all you can do is create an head cannon based on other comic feats to say this character should not be fast enough to blitz the spider sense and as such it failed because spider sense is flawed.

Yeah, because otherwise, and I want to make this clear, by your definition Spider-Sense has so many ******* anti-feats that at this point you can argue it shouldn't be listed on the file for sheer ******* inconsistency.

Also you haven't posted a scan that shows it's active 24/7 all the time no exceptions he can sense everything all the time, so no, it isn't headcanon, it's Occam's Razor. I am deriving a logical conclusion, he has Spider-Sense, it doesn't seem to work all the time, so it doesn't work all the time. Everything doesn't have to be spelled out.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yes, in a revision requiring verse knowledge they should be the only ones inputting.

How the absolute ** can a non-verse supporter argue consistency??? If I haven't read One Piece (I haven't), what the absolute ** do I know about what Luffy or someone does all the time??? If someone showed me a scan of him getting harmed by fall damage or something, and then said "Yeah this is consistent Luff's 9-B max" I'd be like 'yeah sure if you say so man, doesn't sound legit but I haven't seen a single ******* thing to say otherwise.'

People who haven't read the verse can contribute on THREAD LOGIC, POLICY, or AESTHETIC ELEMENTS. NOWHERE, unless you work in a verse that doesn't have any supporters (or staff supporters more specifically), WILL YOU SEE A RANDO GO "Yeah I haven't read this shit at all but somehow I know what this character does all the time. ". That is the kinda shit that happened in some of the most rigged and nonsensical downgrade revisions that got ridiculed and overturned for this very reason.


Bro you are asking me to give scans for shit like, "Has Spider-Man has been hit by Rhino ever, in the decades of history of the two characters existing???"

This is the pettiest waste of time I have ever seen, you're sulking because I asked you produce a scan of the insane policies and mechanics you claim are widespread, meanwhile you KNOW YOURSELF, AS YOU ARE SAYING PRIOR, that you KNOW Spider-Sense fails all the ******* time, yet you want me to produce a scan of it?

Read a ******* file on this wiki. That's your scan.

Burden of proof be like.

I want one scan, I am confident you can't produce one scan that doesn't get contradicted later in the run, unless the appearance is minor enough that the feat only exists in panel. If you can't post the scan, give me the comic reference and I'll check it myself.

Also you don't have to prove that "it failed duo to an inconsistency instead of the character simply being faster than Spider-Man's danger sense." exactly. You have to prove that EVERY SINGLE TIME a character has hit Spider-Man, ever, they were either faster than him, it was because the character was faster than Spider-Sense, there was a mechanic, or it was a minority thing that only happened once in a blue moon.

Is that insane? Is that too much? Well yeah, because it is WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING OUT OF THE BLUE.

You can post your "book of scans" when it comes to that.

Bro just give me the issue number, use any semblance of common sense instead of just spamming in a response.

Yeah, because otherwise, and I want to make this clear, by your definition Spider-Sense has so many ******* anti-feats that at this point you can argue it shouldn't be listed on the file for sheer ******* inconsistency.

Also you haven't posted a scan that shows it's active 24/7 all the time no exceptions he can sense everything all the time, so no, it isn't headcanon, it's Occam's Razor. I am deriving a logical conclusion, he has Spider-Sense, it doesn't seem to work all the time, so it doesn't work all the time. Everything doesn't have to be spelled out.

What are you talking about? Everyone here is clearly knowledgeable member I don't need to bring any references or scans because everyone here knows exactly what I mean without me showing it, that's how it works.

 

[The_Impress]

What are you talking about? Everyone here is clearly knowledgeable member I don't need to bring any references or scans because everyone here knows exactly what I mean without me showing it, that's how it works.

Nobody knows what you're talking about. That is why we're asking for scans. You just made up wiki rules, mechanics and scalings that just, straight up don't exist. That is the whole... reason I am responding to you. Please show me proof of what you EXACTLY mean, I have zero idea whatsoever what you're referring to.

I am not *******, introducing anything that the wiki already doesn't have listed on the files, or it's shit so transparently a thing that it'll be like asking for scans for Flight of Superman.

You meanwhile are talking about VERY SPECIFCIALLY worded rules, some hypothetical scan that shows Spider-Sense is absolute, and some justification that Spider-Sense means Spider-Man is invulnerable to getting hit ever, despite the antifeats. You haven't produced any of these, and these are insanely niche scans.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Nobody knows what you're talking about. That is why we're asking for scans. You just made up wiki rules, mechanics and scalings that just, straight up don't exist. That is the whole... reason I am responding to you. Please show me proof of what you EXACTLY mean, I have zero idea whatsoever what you're referring to.

What I said is really obvious, we know he has a danger sense and we have no narrative explanation why it failed so any attempt to say it's unreliable is headcannon. That's all there is to it, there is no need for scans. You on the other hand you are trying to prove it's unreliable without any scans.

 

[The_Impress]

That's all there is to it, there is no need for scans. You on the other hand you are trying to prove it's unreliable without any scans.

Answer me. Right now. Do you need scans for Spider-Man getting hit by Rhino, since that is something you have NEVER SEEN, EVER? Despite you fully confidently inputting on Saman's Rhino thread and approving its scaling, implying you're familiar with the character, or HAVE CHECKED SAMAN'S file? A file which put Rhino on a LOWER SPEED than BASE SPIDER-MAN, not even Spider-SENSE.

Yes or no question. I'll answer the rest of your argument after this.

 

[SamanPatou]

I haven't read all the comments, but I believe the key here to be the notion that the Spider Sense most of the times doesn't imply an automatic reaction of response. The Spider Sense alerts Peter of hidden and incoming dangers, suspect individuals and more, but he still has to register the input and react.
Peter can often be too distracted to react despite the signaling, or be too caught in the action to operate the correct evasive maneuver. Sometimes Peter ignores it and in some instances it becomes soo loud in his head to actually cause more harm than good, giving him hindering headaches.
Also Peter is still human and for how much of an agility monster he is, sometimes he just can't properly dodge due to being in mid-air or occupied with multiple assailants.

I'll elaborate more later, but the answer to this dilemma is to take the spider sense at face value. It is far from pointless and nonexistent, as some foes are specifically trumped by the spider sense alone, but at the same time Peter is still "human" and thus subject to all the faults I described above.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Answer me. Right now. Do you need scans for Spider-Man getting hit by Rhino, since that is something you have NEVER SEEN, EVER? Despite you fully confidently inputting on Saman's Rhino thread and approving its scaling, implying you're familiar with the character, or HAVE CHECKED SAMAN'S file? A file which put Rhino on a LOWER SPEED than BASE SPIDER-MAN, not even Spider-SENSE.

Yes or no question. I'll answer the rest of your argument after this.

I didn't approved anything I gave my oppinion also in Saman's thread I never even said I agreed with everything or even commented on if I was fine with it. Also in this wiki there is no difference between normal speed and spider sense speed, and regardless him being slower than Spiderman is an assumption we made based on the multiple writers and feats made in all comics he was part in, if a writer made him seem faster than Spider-man and hit him that's not in the consistency of his tier on this wiki.

 

[The_Impress]

I didn't approved anything I gave my oppinion also in Saman's thread I never even said I agreed with everything or even commented on if I was fine with it.

So you were inputting on that thread and arguing without reading something as basic as the speed section? Cool.

Anyways read it now, it shows Rhino tagging Spider-Man. Boom. Spidey should've been able to never have been hit if we were to go by the highest possible interpretation. That's your scan.

I haven't read all the comments, but I believe the key here to be the notion that the Spider Sense most of the times doesn't imply an automatic reaction of response. The Spider Sense alerts Peter of hidden and incoming dangers, suspect individuals and more, but he still has to register the input and react.
Peter can often be too distracted to react despite the signaling, or be too caught in the action to operate the correct evasive maneuver. Sometimes Peter ignores it and in some instances it becomes soo loud in his head to actually cause more harm than good, giving him hindering headaches.
Also Peter is still human and for how much of an agility monster he is, sometimes he just can't properly dodge due to being in mid-air or occupied with multiple assailants.

I'll elaborate more later, but the answer to this dilemma is to take the spider sense at face value. It is far from pointless and nonexistent, as some foes are specifically trumped by the spider sense alone, but at the same time Peter is still "human" and thus subject to all the faults I described above.

I'd prefer scans of these mechanics, but yeah I'm fine if we go by this logic to explain away the discrepancy too, they'll be listed in the Weakness (and Standard Tactics section if we're feeling fancy) :V

I don't think it's absolute, but I guess it's broad enough to cover most feats, and to make the inconsistencies afterwards a small enough pool to be PIS, ig.

 

[OrangeFR]

I haven't read all the comments, but I believe the key here to be the notion that the Spider Sense most of the times doesn't imply an automatic reaction of response. The Spider Sense alerts Peter of hidden and incoming dangers, suspect individuals and more, but he still has to register the input and react.
Peter can often be too distracted to react despite the signaling, or be too caught in the action to operate the correct evasive maneuver. Sometimes Peter ignores it and in some instances it becomes soo loud in his head to actually cause more harm than good, giving him hindering headaches.
Also Peter is still human and for how much of an agility monster he is, sometimes he just can't properly dodge due to being in mid-air or occupied with multiple assailants.

I'll elaborate more later, but the answer to this dilemma is to take the spider sense at face value. It is far from pointless and nonexistent, as some foes are specifically trumped by the spider sense alone, but at the same time Peter is still "human" and thus subject to all the faults I described above.

This seems like the most logical conclusion to me