Ben 10: Cosmology additions and replacement

[Celestial_Scaler25]

BUMP!

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Lort15]

Agree

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Celestialsapien Retcons/Debate void/Mind space

Is this realm beyond omniverse or omniversal force ?

 

[Hellformer]

Is this realm beyond omniverse or omniversal force ?

Yep

 

[RigelBR7]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Bump once again and I will disagree : )

.......

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

On my list.

Could you please give me your opinion?

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll look into this tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Firestorm808]

1. Each timeline features a hyperspace that allows certain characters, like Jetray, Verdona, Rook's rustbucket and the Highbreed spaceships, to travel intergalactic distances in a short amount of time. It can be accessed by creating rifts in space time or via FTL travel.
   1. This is fine.
2. (just like how Caesar did when he sent Alpha to the Null Void)
   1. There is no mention of hyperspace here.
3. A unique property of the timelines is that they exist as both cylindrical, tree-like branches and disc shaped, depending on the perspective. Which is even explained by Professor paradox in both the ways (tree like, disc).
   1. How you see them depends on what higher dimension you are on.
4. The Timestream represents the spatio-temporal perspective of the timelines, as one can travel in both space and time. This is demonstrated when Ben and Rook travel from present day outer space, to past in the year 1773, somewhere on the earth.
   1. Fine.
5. In contrast, the disc perspective represents the spatial perspective of timelines, enabling travel through space, such as hyperspace travel.
   1. I don't follow how hyperspace is related here.
6. The true forms of Celestialsapiens like Alien X exist as abstract manifestations of love and rage.
   1. Fine
7. Celestialsapiens transcend the very plane where existence lies
   1. Fine.
8. and perceive the space beyond as a mere projection.
   1. Where do you get the "perceived as just a projection" interpretation from?
9. Their true selves control their respective celestial avatars to interact with the verse
   1. Fine
10. and alter its continuity, such as retconning the art style on at least three occasions,
    1. This is one of their capabilities, yes.
11. one of which must have involved changing their homeworld from Zvezda to Forge of Creation.
    1. I wouldn't use this because the first name was never published in the show before getting retconned.
12. The Forge is described as the source of the verse's greatest power and a birthplace of Celestialsapiens like Alien X.
    1. Fine.
13. It predates the verse and serves as the origin
    1. The origin of the "ANLG Universe Structure" was established to be from the ANLG, no?
14. as well as the center
    1. I would say metaphorical. It's currently agreed that the FOC is located outside the ANLG Universe Structure.
15. responsible for creating the space beyond.
    1. Where did this interpretation come from?
16. The Forge is noted to be beyond comprehension for the trio which includes Ben, who has an innate sense of transtemporal metaphysics.
    1. Eh, it's more figurative than I would like to use as justification.
17. Additionally, the statement that the Forge of Creation is out of sync with all time underscores its existence beyond the linear and non-linear constraints of time and the hypertime.
    1. Fine
18. The Forge was originally accessible from the space beyond but Professor paradox hid it by erecting a chronal randomization barrier from everyone except the inhabitants of Forge, himself and weilders of the Map of infinity to avoid the misuse of greatest power in the verse.
    1. Fine.

 

[Hellformer]

1. (just like how Caesar did when he sent Alpha to the Null Void)
   1. There is no mention of hyperspace here.

I know but Caesar states that Alpha creates space-time rifts wherever he goes. So the most logical conclusion to fit within the context of the verse would be him accessing the hyperspace as it can be accessed by same means.

• A unique property of the timelines is that they exist as both cylindrical, tree-like branches and disc shaped, depending on the perspective. Which is even explained by Professor paradox in both the ways (tree like, disc).
  1. How you see them depends on what higher dimension you are on.

Could be but still noteworthy to avoid confusion for the readers and viewers.

• The Timestream represents the spatio-temporal perspective of the timelines, as one can travel in both space and time. This is demonstrated when Ben and Rook travel from present day outer space, to past in the year 1773, somewhere on the earth.
• In contrast, the disc perspective represents the spatial perspective of timelines, enabling travel through space, such as hyperspace travel.
  1. I don't follow how hyperspace is related here.

That's just an example since hyperspace enables characters to traverse in space.

• and perceive the space beyond as a mere projection.
  1. Where do you get the "perceived as just a projection" interpretation from?

As per the visuals, where the space beyond is shown as a mere speck of their thoughts while Serena and Bellicus were busy debating.

• one of which must have involved changing their homeworld from Zvezda to Forge of Creation.
  1. I wouldn't use this because the first name was never published in the show before getting retconned.

It was still mentioned in the guidebook as well as other medias such as games which are canon to the show.

• It predates the verse and serves as the origin
  1. The origin of the "ANLG Universe Structure" was established to be from the ANLG, no?

This context here doesn't suggest Annihilarrgh Universe because those are created by Contumelias. The actual context here would refer to the Ben 10 verse as a whole (minus debate void as aggregor wasn't shown to travel there) since the entire arc revolves around the Map of infinity which said to enable the user to travel anywhere in the Universe (space beyond being a part of it)

So in short, Universe in this context=FoC+Space Beyond.

• as well as the center
  1. I would say metaphorical. It's currently agreed that the FOC is located outside the ANLG Universe Structure.

Fine but the statement talks about it being the Center of the Universe as in the verse as a whole as elaborated right above.

• responsible for creating the space beyond.
  1. Where did this interpretation come from?

"It is where the Universe began" where Universe refers to the verse a whole as explained above. It is impossible for Anlg Universes to originate from FoC because we know that they are created by their respective Anlg devices.

• The Forge is noted to be beyond comprehension for the trio which includes Ben, who has an innate sense of transtemporal metaphysics.
  1. Eh, it's more figurative than I would like to use as justification.

Yeah just wanted to add as much info as I could, though this doesn't grant it any special thing, just noteworthy.

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

I know but Caesar states that Alpha creates space-time rifts wherever he goes. So the most logical conclusion to fit within the context of the verse would be him accessing the hyperspace as it can be accessed by same means.

The more logical thing is he ripped ahole through space-time to get from the Nullvoid to Rex's dimension similarly to Dr. Animo's machine. Alpha is leaving behind dead Nanites, not rips in space-time.

This context here doesn't suggest Annihilarrgh Universe because those are created by Contumelias. The actual context here would refer to the Ben 10 verse as a whole (minus debate void as aggregor wasn't shown to travel there) since the entire arc revolves around the Map of infinity which said to enable the user to travel anywhere in the Universe (space beyond being a part of it)

So in short, Universe in this context=FoC+Space Beyond.

Fine

Center of the 'Universe' in this context also refers the the verse as a whole.

"It is where the Universe began" where Universe refers to the verse a whole as explained above. It is impossible for Anlg Universes to originate from FoC because we know that they are created by their respective Anlg devices.

Also CPs have laws against altering/creating/destroying Universes.

Yeah just wanted to add as much info as I could, though this doesn't grant it any special thing, just noteworthy.

Resistance to Law Manipulation? Transtemporal Metaphysics in larger context refers to laws.

 

[Hellformer]

The more logical thing is he ripped ahole through space-time to get from the Nullvoid to Rex's dimension similarly to Dr. Animo's machine. Alpha is leaving behind dead Nanites, not rips in space-time.

It's more like space-time rifts are created when characters access other parallel dimensions within the same timeline.

Rifts in space-time=Hyperspace (one of the ways to access)

Center of the 'Universe' in this context also refers the the verse as a whole.

Yep

Also CPs have laws against altering/creating/destroying Universes.

Yeah

Resistance to Law Manipulation? Transtemporal Metaphysics in larger context refers to laws.

Not sure but this thread doesn't focus on that.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

The origin of the "ANLG Universe Structure" was established to be from the ANLG, no?

Wasn't universe used as a term for whole verse in that story arc (like azmuth mentioned Celestialsapiens being strongest in verse by calling them "strongest in the universe")? Map of infinity was mentioned to be map that can help to travel anywhere in the "universe" (so whole verse, including space beyond and FoC are included)

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

I know but Caesar states that Alpha creates space-time rifts wherever he goes. So the most logical conclusion to fit within the context of the verse would be him accessing the hyperspace as it can be accessed by same means.

Could be but still noteworthy to avoid confusion for the readers and viewers.

That's just an example since hyperspace enables characters to traverse in space.

As per the visuals, where the space beyond is shown as a mere speck of their thoughts while Serena and Bellicus were busy debating.


It was still mentioned in the guidebook as well as other medias such as games which are canon to the show.

This context here doesn't suggest Annihilarrgh Universe because those are created by Contumelias. The actual context here would refer to the Ben 10 verse as a whole (minus debate void as aggregor wasn't shown to travel there) since the entire arc revolves around the Map of infinity which said to enable the user to travel anywhere in the Universe (space beyond being a part of it)

So in short, Universe in this context=FoC+Space Beyond.

Fine but the statement talks about it being the Center of the Universe as in the verse as a whole as elaborated right above.

"It is where the Universe began" where Universe refers to the verse a whole as explained above. It is impossible for Anlg Universes to originate from FoC because we know that they are created by their respective Anlg devices.

Yeah just wanted to add as much info as I could, though this doesn't grant it any special thing, just noteworthy.

1. What quotes are you referencing, saying that he creates space-time rifts?
2. "shown as a mere speck" What mere speck are you pointing at?
3. I'll defer to other staff on the Zvezda stuff.
4. If that is the case, which instances of the show use which context to differentiate everything
   1. Universe = FOC + SB + ANGL Universe
   2. Universe = ANLG Universe
   3. Universe = Other smaller contexts
5. We would need to clarify the context of the word "universe" to determine how we interpret "center"
6. "creating the space beyond" See previous.

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

1. What quotes are you referencing, saying that he creates space-time rifts?
2. "shown as a mere speck" What mere speck are you pointing at?
3. I'll defer to other staff on the Zvezda stuff.
4. If that is the case, which instances of the show use which context to differentiate everything
   1. Universe = FOC + SB + ANGL Universe
   2. Universe = ANLG Universe
   3. Universe = Other smaller contexts
5. We would need to clarify the context of the word "universe" to determine how we interpret "center"
6. "creating the space beyond" See previous.

1. He isn't creating space time rifts. He's creating dead nanites.
4. Depends on context. The word universe only applies to a single universe in the Annhilarrgh universe. Like instances of Dagon, Vilgax and Highbreed claim they wanna conquer the universe. In context of the Annihilargh, it refers to Annihilargh universes and finally in context of the FoC it refers to the verse as a whole as the FoC exists outside of both.
6. If the prior context makes sense then it should be explanatory to why universe in this context means verse as a whole because the FoC exists in neither regular nor Annhilarrgh uiverses and due to Contumelia creating the Annhilarrgh universes.

 

[Hellformer]

1. What quotes are you referencing, saying that he creates space-time rifts?

Caesar: These are gathered from the area of the space-time rifts and you'll find them everywhere Alpha goes

1. "shown as a mere speck" What mere speck are you pointing at?

The background

1. I'll defer to other staff on the Zvezda stuff.

Fine but can you please tag them?

1. If that is the case, which instances of the show use which context to differentiate everything
   1. Universe = FOC + SB + ANGL Universe
   2. Universe = ANLG Universe
   3. Universe = Other smaller contexts

The context depends on other background stuff that the conversation revolves around. For example:

• When Paradox explains the branching timestream to NW Ben, he labels the timelines as both "dimension" and "Universe".
  • Conclusion: Universe in this context refers to a timeline
• In the last episode, when Rook says that the Annihilarrgh destroys a Universe if its present and creates one if the Universe is absent (white void). And then we see multiple other timelines in the background post Creation. Another notable point is that Maltruant states; "At last, the infinite timestream is mine to control" (referring to his own Annihilarrgh)
  • Conclusion: Universe in this context refers to creation of Annihilarrgh.

These are few examples for timeline and Anlg Universe and there might be more.

• We would need to clarify the context of the word "universe" to determine how we interpret "center"

The context is same as the verse

• "creating the space beyond" See previous.

I didn't get this

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

Caesar: These are gathered from the area of the space-time rifts and you'll find them everywhere Alpha goes

Ben: I take it those are nanites.
Ceasar: Dead nanites. Drained by the entity you just fought.

He gathered dead nanites from the area of the spacetime rift we see in the start of the episode. There are dead nanites everywhere Alpha goes because he can't make a sustainable host thus why he keeps absorbing nanites and needs the Omega, which is essentially a nanite factory.

 

[Hellformer]

Ben: I take it those are nanites.
Ceasar: Dead nanites. Drained by the entity you just fought.

He gathered dead nanites from the area of the spacetime rift we see in the start of the episode. There are dead nanites everywhere Alpha goes because he can't make a sustainable host thus why he keeps absorbing nanites and needs the Omega, which is essentially a nanite factory.

What's your stance for that? Do you disagree with Alpha accessing the hyperspace?

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

What's your stance for that? Do you disagree with Alpha accessing the hyperspace?

No, he clearly had to access Ben and Rex's dimension somehow so I agree he can access hyperspace but through sheer speed is also an option as he can keep up with Ceasar's ship.

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

1. What quotes are you referencing, saying that he creates space-time rifts?
2. "shown as a mere speck" What mere speck are you pointing at?
3. I'll defer to other staff on the Zvezda stuff.
4. If that is the case, which instances of the show use which context to differentiate everything
   1. Universe = FOC + SB + ANGL Universe
   2. Universe = ANLG Universe
   3. Universe = Other smaller contexts
5. We would need to clarify the context of the word "universe" to determine how we interpret "center"
6. "creating the space beyond" See previous.

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

1. What quotes are you referencing, saying that he creates space-time rifts?
2. "shown as a mere speck" What mere speck are you pointing at?
3. I'll defer to other staff on the Zvezda stuff.
4. If that is the case, which instances of the show use which context to differentiate everything
   1. Universe = FOC + SB + ANGL Universe
   2. Universe = ANLG Universe
   3. Universe = Other smaller contexts
5. We would need to clarify the context of the word "universe" to determine how we interpret "center"
6. "creating the space beyond" See previous.

Could you please check out the responses to your comment?

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Caesar: These are gathered from the area of the space-time rifts and you'll find them everywhere Alpha goes

The background


Fine but can you please tag them?

The context depends on other background stuff that the conversation revolves around. For example:

• When Paradox explains the branching timestream to NW Ben, he labels the timelines as both "dimension" and "Universe".
  • Conclusion: Universe in this context refers to a timeline
• In the last episode, when Rook says that the Annihilarrgh destroys a Universe if its present and creates one if the Universe is absent (white void). And then we see multiple other timelines in the background post Creation. Another notable point is that Maltruant states; "At last, the infinite timestream is mine to control" (referring to his own Annihilarrgh)
  • Conclusion: Universe in this context refers to creation of Annihilarrgh.

These are few examples for timeline and Anlg Universe and there might be more.

The context is same as the verse

I didn't get this

1. Alpha created rifts by what I assume to be tech similar to Null Void Guns. Alpha was sent to the Null void and presumably met Ben after using the Tech. The Null Void Tech was used again to rex Rex's world. However, he does not create them wherever he goes. He leaves behind nanites. I do not see how this has anything to do with Hyperspace. Hyperspace has not been shown to connect between different space-time dimensions.
2. That supposed speck was the starting point of the erasure of "The universe." This is not the Space Beyond. As you see, the purple erasure grows bigger as it erases the ANLG Universe. "The Universe" as a whole isn't a spexk in this scene.
3. I am fine with making additions to the Terminology sections in the cosmology page. Note the specific episodes where the term "Universe" means differently based on the plot context.

 

[Hellformer]

1. Alpha created rifts by what I assume to be tech similar to Null Void Guns. Alpha was sent to the Null void and presumably met Ben after using the Tech. The Null Void Tech was used again to rex Rex's world. However, he does not create them wherever he goes. He leaves behind nanites. I do not see how this has anything to do with Hyperspace. Hyperspace has not been shown to connect between different space-time dimensions.

The point here lies about the creation of space-time rift being created. Had it not been mentioned, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Hyperspace could possibly be a container which accommodates all the infinite parallel dimensions within a timeline which makes two points in space closer, because here's how hyperspaces in general function:
The basic premise of hyperspace is that vast distances through space can be traversed quickly by taking a kind of shortcut.

1. That supposed speck was the starting point of the erasure of "The universe." This is not the Space Beyond. As you see, the purple erasure grows bigger as it erases the ANLG Universe. "The Universe" as a whole isn't a spexk in this scene.

These black colored holes with purple boundaries are same as the ones shown here:

And it was already accepted in the prior cosmology revision that this black area has to be space beyond.
So in conclusion, Serena and Bellicus do view the space beyond as a mere speck or some sort of projection.

1. I am fine with making additions to the Terminology sections in the cosmology page. Note the specific episodes where the term "Universe" means differently based on the plot context.

Alright

 

[RigelBR7]

The point here lies about the creation of space-time rift being created. Had it not been mentioned, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Hyperspace could possibly be a container which accommodates all the infinite parallel dimensions within a timeline which makes two points in space closer, because here's how hyperspaces in general function:
The basic premise of hyperspace is that vast distances through space can be traversed quickly by taking a kind of shortcut.

These black colored holes with purple boundaries are same as the ones shown here:

And it was already accepted in the prior cosmology revision that this black area has to be space beyond.
So in conclusion, Serena and Bellicus do view the space beyond as a mere speck or some sort of projection.

Alright

Does this mean that the White Void was also destroyed??

 

[Hellformer]

Does this mean that the White Void was also destroyed??

Yeah obviously

 

[Hellformer]

1. Alpha created rifts by what I assume to be tech similar to Null Void Guns. Alpha was sent to the Null void and presumably met Ben after using the Tech. The Null Void Tech was used again to rex Rex's world. However, he does not create them wherever he goes. He leaves behind nanites. I do not see how this has anything to do with Hyperspace. Hyperspace has not been shown to connect between different space-time dimensions.
2. That supposed speck was the starting point of the erasure of "The universe." This is not the Space Beyond. As you see, the purple erasure grows bigger as it erases the ANLG Universe. "The Universe" as a whole isn't a spexk in this scene.
3. I am fine with making additions to the Terminology sections in the cosmology page. Note the specific episodes where the term "Universe" means differently based on the plot context.

Bump

 

[DemiiPowa]

Awesome work, I agree .

unrelated, I like your pfp

 

[Firestorm808]

The point here lies about the creation of space-time rift being created. Had it not been mentioned, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Hyperspace could possibly be a container which accommodates all the infinite parallel dimensions within a timeline which makes two points in space closer, because here's how hyperspaces in general function:
The basic premise of hyperspace is that vast distances through space can be traversed quickly by taking a kind of shortcut.

These black colored holes with purple boundaries are same as the ones shown here:

And it was already accepted in the prior cosmology revision that this black area has to be space beyond.
So in conclusion, Serena and Bellicus do view the space beyond as a mere speck or some sort of projection.

Alright

1. I still don't see how hyperspace (which is used in the series to travel across the same 3-D space) is related to dimensional travel (traveling from one timeline to another)
2. Yes, they are seeing the "Universe" be erased, leaving the Black Space Beyond. This just means that the small hole of erasure would show a small part of the Space Beyond. The hole and erasure grow, revealing more and more of the space beyond. I don't see how the Space Beyond as a whole can be interpreted as "small" in this scene.

 

[Deleted member 40129]

unrelated, I like your pfp

Thank you

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

If OP don't reply to Firestorm so I think he agreed with it?