That's simply because it teleported stone there. Judging from the figurines pointing at Denji in his pursuit it's reasonable to say that the Darkness Devil could choose the effective range of his own passive barrier.
I asked for evidence of the forcefield/barrier being passive, this paragraph is just assuming that its passive for no reason. If theres no evidence, i dont see why we have to assume its a passive, permanently active ability and burden of proof would be on you to claim this, since most Devil abilities are not constantly passively active.
I'd say it's reasonable for a human body to be torn apart by bullets.
You were the one who said Primals having low durability would be a huge plothole
That's also not the durability she has on her profile, had you taken a look at her keys you would have seen "True Form | Weakened." Her durability is currently unknown for that sector, soon to be above whatever Post-Weakening Chainsaw Man scales to.
The fact that it's there at all is wrong, it's justified by scaling her above Gun Devil but she 1) only scales above Gun Devil via a statement and 2) Devils don't outstat inferior Devils especially not in every category. Eternity has been defeated multiple times now and clearly not a top tier Devil but can create infinitely large Pocket dimension, doesnt mean we can give that to every Devil who scales above him.
Nor, for the same reasons, can we give Gun Devil dura to every stronger Devil otherwise Makima would have Town Level+ dura. And yes i just checked her profile and saw she has City Level+ dura, im speechless.
Yes, headcanon. Everytime a Primal Fear has been hurt in their True Form, it has been by a special ability
Every Devil has special abilties, you need to specify.
[or by someone within their scope of fear.]
I've said this before will say this again, you cant
universally fearscale. Fear scaling is first of all, EXTREMELY subjective and secondly, Fears clearly dont set lower or upper bounds for Devils, and they can exceed or underperform their expected fear by leaps and bounds. A few examples of the top of my head; the Spider Devil should be one of the strongest Devils but was fodder-tier, the Octopus Devil should be closer to Bucky than Fox but was effective against the AGING DEVIL, Primals have group statements that imply that - Death aside - they are around the same level of power, whereas in reality Aging should be magnitudes stronger by sheer fear scaling. Hybrid scaling makes even less sense, Quanxi (the Bow Devil) could beat Strengthened WAR Devil, people fear war about 45000000x more than bows so if that's all that determined Devil Strength Yoru would one-shot Quanxi even at 0.1% strength. Fear scaling can only be used for pure physical feats and even then very conservatively.
Even the scaling example you use (Chainsaw Man vs Aging) makes no sense in a vacuum. In what world do people fear Chainsaws anywhere close to Aging?
As shown with the War Devil, we know that this translates to strength, speed, durability and ability potency.
War Devil is a fiend + a horseman devil, applying everything that happens to War to the entire verse is nonsense imo. There is no rule saying these things increase at the same level, do you think Makima, despite being stronger than the Gun Devil and more FEARED ("History of humanity is fearing Makima bla bla bla) is capable of physically running across half of Japan in 0.01 seconds or whatever. Do you think the Gun Devil at 20% would get killed by a f-cking thug with a handgun and need a revival via contract (unless you believe Makima is City Level+ dura like the profile says despite Part 1 blatanly disagreeing with it). Devils with less fear are allowed to be superior in some physical aspects.
I agree she gains power, but the problem is you try to quantify this power increase as a
congrous increase in all physical abilities which there is not only little evidence for but actually evidence directly contradicting it, like everything i just mentioned + Denji, who was fear-buffed, still having TRASH-TIER dura and being able to be amputated by human doctors with little hand saws while War, with the same fear-buff got a god-tier Durability upgrade allowing not even
Yoshida who is superhuman to cut War. I could name more but im trying to reply asap cuz its midnight and i kinda need to go to bed lol
Yes, that's exactly why they outscale them in AP, durability, speed etc. Let's go over why.
Aight im gonna give this a chance and read this with an open mind before i even type anything. (even though i dont have time right now xd)
Fear is the driving force behind a devil's strength, and the stronger the fear associated with a devil’s name, the more powerful that devil becomes. This has been explicitly demonstrated multiple times in the series. The example I used above; the War Devil for instance, during the Chainsaw Man War taking place outside, the widespread fear of war caused her strength to increase significantly. Before this fear boost, an attack from Yoshida that previously sliced her arm off was reduced to a mere scratch after her amplification. She then experienced a vast increase in speed, which she had to adjust to, and her ability evolved to no longer require physical contact to turn something into a weapon. This confirms that a devil’s strength across multiple attributes like durability, speed, and ability potency, scales in direct proportion to the level of fear they have.
i
AGREE that fear is the driving force behind a devils strength. What i dont agree with is that (if we were to quantify it) 10 fear gives 10 speed, 10 dura, 10 strength.
Instead of some devils getting 0 dura and gaining 30 strength like Falling Devil. (causes gravity waves across the earth, guns hurt it) Or Eternity Devil (can make an infinitely large room. Pre-training Denji can cut it eternally (pun intended) without it having the slighest way of fighting back or having durability of resisting an attack. Or vice versa Zombie Devil can be extremely durable and hard to kill, but clearly doesnt gain much speed (if linear fear scaling worked the way you said for speed specifically, Zombie Devil (not the Zombie minions, but the main body) should be perception blitzing SoS Denji but he had no shot of dodging him and couldnt fight, meanwhile the Bat Devil is much faster and had a stronger main body. And there is no universe in which Bats are feared more than Zombies.
This confirms that a devil’s strength across multiple attributes like durability, speed, and ability potency, scales in direct proportion to the level of fear they have.
No, this confirms that it
can happen. I mean we are all aware of that example, but like i said (borrowing Elaj's quote again) Devils are not bags of powers, there are unique rules governing each of them. Apart from the counter example ive named (Denji same fear buff; no dura increase) you are assuming every Devil has the same distribution of stats that the fear scaling gives them. Whereas its entirely possible to have OFFENSIVE Devils (Gun Devil, Eternity Devil, CSM, Primals, Hybrids) who are reasonably easy to hurt but have MASSIVELY powerful attacks and DEFENSIVE Devils (Santa Claus. Hell Devil, Reze (she survives self-detonations), Octopus Devil, Zombie Devil) who dont blow up the entire city they're fighting in but are extremely hard to kill, i would assume Tank Devil will be equally as strong defensively as Gun Devil offensively, but that remains to be seen. Other than the obvious fact that Devils have physical specialities; There is non-fear scaling related variance in speed such as Quanxi being a frail speed-monster and Zombie Devil being very slow but also difficult to kill.
According to linear fear scaling, Zombie Devils main body should outstat Quanxi in strength and speed. When in reality, we see Zombie Devils main body has less-than-human level speed and Quanxi is supersonic minimum.
And also linear fear scaling doesnt explain why Quanxi is so fast and strong (which can only really be due to fear scaling since we both agree its the driving force behind devil powers) but at the same time paper-frail, Falling has the excuse of a weakened body, Quanxi doesnt. Since you say these abilities all increase at the same rate, because thats what happened one (1) time with War Devil, Quanxi should also have superhuman dura to match her monster strength and speed.
Not to mention other shit muddling the pool like eating strong Devils (or Gun Devil parts), people in the vicinity fearing them (which extremely powers up Devils as seen in Eternity Devils case), how long since a Devil came back from hell (hence why Nayuta was very weak despite having the same fear as namesake as Makima) unique Devil powers gaining unique power ups instead of stat buffs and so on.
Given this, it follows that Primal Fears, which embody the most ancient fears ingrained in human psychology, should completely outscale all lower tier devils in every significant metric.
It would if i hadnt disagreed and disproven the notion that fear scaling can be used linearly. Which i dont mean as a diss, i see your logic, its just based on a wrong assumption.
The Gun Devil for instance, is one of the strongest non-Primal Devils due to the widespread fear of guns, yet the fear of darkness, falling and other existential horrors is far more primal and deeply rooted in human instinct. It would make no sense for Primal Fears to only surpass devils like the Gun Devil in a selective manner, as the demonstrated mechanics of the series show that fear directly enhances all aspects of a devil’s capabilities.
This is my problem with even non-linear fear scaling. We are trying to objectively determine how strong CSMs devils are. But we have to talk about fear, which is an emotion, and thus not born out of rational thought. We arent even using any objective metrics (like studies or surveys of how much people fear something) but just spitballing at "X must be feared more than Y" "Y is weaker than Z but stronger than B" "B beat X who is stronger than Y but those were extenuating circumstances", it just ends up argumentative.
Im fine saying Primals are at the top, because they have been stated to be the absolute tippy top of Devils who have never died, and there are no group of Devils above them (unless you count Death who is also a Primal fear). But not fine saying that they are because of how powerful their fears are. If i were to start fear scaling i would think Aging one-shots Darkness. Maybe 1/5 adults fears Darkness. Every single person, even people not afraid of death, fear and detest aging. The mere fact that Primals are equal and fear of Fire, Darkness, Falling, Aging, is treated as the same tier of fear with Death being the only one ever stated to be stronger is nonsense.
I get that we have to do this to some extent to figure out certain Devils but i also would throw it out at the first opportunity; for example if Octopus Devil is so strong that Yoshida who has no other known Devil contracts is stated stronger than Kishibe and regarded as dangerous by Pochita (spitting him out) and could literally be used against a Primal successfully i would not conclude that, "Oh, people must be ******* terrified of Octopus somewhere" but its just stronger than its supposed to be, same reason Spider Devil who should genuinely be near Primal tier (5% of the population has arachnophobia, for reference thats larger than Japans population) is used as a walking Makima portal, i dont think Arachnophobia doesnt exist, its just a case of a Devil being a jobber despite having a very strong name. Even the main character of the show is based on a construction tool that would be lucky to have a chance against the Car Devil, but is strong enough in its True form to fight Horsemen & Primals.
Moreover, throughout the series, any instance where a Primal Fear has been harmed has involved special circumstances, such as hax-based abilities or a devil being within their scope of fear. If a weaker devil could surpass or even match a Primal Fear in fundamental stats like AP, durability, or speed, it would create an internal contradiction in the power system, as it would mean a devil feared on a lesser scale could somehow contend with beings that are supposed to be transcendent in comparison.
Ive named dozens of cases of this happening. Octopus Devil, Spider Devil, Zombie Devil are my three favorite examples as fears which have an internal contradiction, not to the power system but to how much they are feared. I suppose its remotely possible Spider and Zombie have hidden special powers that we've never seen, but Octopus has absolutely no reason at all to be even 10% as strong as it is. Even the fact it was ******* up Santa puppets is beyond explaining, let alone its Part 2 feats or the fact it did most of its fears WHILE BEING ON A RESTRICTED CONTRACT with Yoshida not even summoning the whole Devil just like with Fox devil.
the only reasonable conclusion is that Primal Fears fully outscale all lower-tier devils in every relevant category. And that's simply what we are working with for now.
It is
not a reasonable conclusion because it has been disproven already, setting aside Falling who is weakened;
- Aging has no physical feats to speak of and in fact has anti-feats. The guy got hit by octopus devil TWICE. He is entirely incapable of physically subduing Pochita despite the fact hes not only a Primal but by fear scaling should be the second-strongest Primal. When he was pulled into his world where no Devil abilities worked, he just gave up,
if Aging had 1% of Pochitas strength and speed (which we agree are physical buffs dependant on fear and NOT active Devils abilities), he would have blitzed and killed everyone in the Timeless realm in 0.01 seconds. Even the GG bullet which youd expect him to be able to dodge or tank as a primal, he had to disable via force field and hax. He needed hax both to survive it and to destroy the attack.
-Darkness has a much, much better physical showing for sure. But he needed a force field to block Denji. This is the equivalent of Gun Devil needing a force field to block Aki throwing a stone at him. Now i understand you contest that Gun Devil blocked this, so if we disregard that, you know who else pushed him?
Makima. A non-Primal. Makima who we just said "is fully outscaled as a lower-tier devil in every relevant category." was able to SURVIVE his attacks, and then make him BLEED, and then teleport the **** out of there. And she did this
while fighting in Darkness. This is physically impossible if the Darkness Devil is faster, stronger more durable than her. And not only by slight amounts but by significant amounts given that she is a non-Primal. Makima could not have possibly put up that fight, with any amount of hax, in fact she shouldnt even be able to perceive him, if he is meant to be Magnitudes faster than 100% Gun Devil who was hopping around the World at
Hypersonic+ speed he should be approaching Relativistic speed. We even KNOW Makima isnt exactly much faster than the Gun Devil because she spotted him miles away and still got killed once and had to rely on her hax to both survive that attack and kill Gun Devil instead of physically outmuscling him. So how the **** would she even be able to track let alone hurt Darkness Devil? With Hax? But didnt you say
- This confirms that a devil’s strength across multiple attributes like durability, speed, and ability potency, scales in direct proportion to the level of fear they have.
So she should also have been completely gapped in hax.
-Falling like i said, wont talk about much since she is nerfed, but saying that just because she is nerfed - or because she is using human bodies - she has human-tier durability doesnt sit right with me.
Every Primal Devil is made up of human parts. Hell Death Devil literally looks human and according to linear fear-scaling which you believe in, should be built like an armored tank and War Devil has shown that its possible for human skin to get buffed by Devil abilties into superhuman realms. The whole quote "This
confirms that a devil’s strength. etc." was based on War Devil feat so why does Falling, who even in her Weakened form is feared more than War, not have this dura? And also why does she still have the AP to cause
worldwide gravitational waves if she is in this super nerfed state (again i agree shes nerfed, but it was never quantified how much). To me it seems like this belief was adopted retroactively to explain her bottom-tier durability. (which i explain because fear-scaling isnt linear so she is a regen merchant while having global AP)
But as i said, she is nerfed so she, even with linear fear-scaling, at least has an excuse for being hurt by non-Primal attacks. Aging and Darkness have no reason not to be blitzing the entire verse while no selling any attack, including Makima's hax since they would have hax of a higher-order to counteract it.
Makima being hurt by pistols is an inconsistency, but it is well established that Chainsaw Man adheres to realistic physics, particularly when it comes to piercing damage. Makima has displayed enough blunt force durability to withstand a kick to the head from a weakened Pochita, yet she is still vulnerable to chainsaws, bullets and similar forms of damage. This is primarily because Fujimoto intentionally portrays her regeneration as a central aspect of her abilities, making her appear more fragile for narrative effect.
I appreciate that we can talk about inconsistencies honestly, because as i said (and i only really got aware of the extent of this once Elaj pointed it out) damage is really inconsistent. Like Makima (supposedly) survived a rocket launcher and thats why she has - im not kidding - CITY BLOCK AP on the profile. When she was clearly seen damaged by Post-Weakening Denji, who slashed her open like a christmas present, and thugs with handguns.
I want you to take a look at the mental jumps you have to make to keep Makima at City Block+ level (which - just to be clear - via linear fear-scaling is still really really low Dura for someone like Makima):
- Post Training Pre-Weakening Denji has
Large Building level+ AP. Due to a verified and calced feat during the International Assassin Arc.
-Post-Weakening Denji (WHO SHOULD BE OBVIOUSLY WEAKER) has
Building level AP all the way to the very end of Part 1, where his AP jumps one Magnitude higher than PRE-WEAKENING; with
City Block level+ with Power's Blood Chainsaw (Able to
slice into Makima).
The explanation given here supposedly is that making the Chainsaw from Powers blood got his Chainsaw to City Block level+ but if we read the manga, all Denji said Power's blood did is decrease the effect of her healing. And also, Pochita is not using that Chainsaw and still slashing Makima up like shes made out of paper (which she is). And not only that, maybe you can say the Chainsaws still have enough AP to hit her.
Tell me how the **** he prepares and eats Makima's flesh if its supposed to have CITY BLOCK LEVEL DURA?
He would need some new technology to cook that ******* steak that he made. And does Denjis fork have City Block level AP? Its not like dead Devil parts lose their Devil traits (t. Gun Devil) so the fact that Makima would be dead is irrelevant, also technically she didnt die because she needed to be digested to be fully erased.
So yeah, Makima at City Level Dura makes no sense. Even if we ignore the thugs, which i did since you said that guns make no sense in CSM which i agree with.
Furthermore, Makima no-diffing the 20% Gun Devil was purely due to her own abilities and not a reflection of her physical stats, making it irrelevant to a discussion about raw durability.
Bro you literally said this;
This confirms that a devil’s strength across multiple attributes like durability, speed, and ability potency, scales in direct proportion to the level of fear they have.
But now you are claiming, even though this goes against linear fear-scaling, that Makima can have magnitudes higher hax without matching Gun Devil in durability. But are unwilling to apply the same logic to Primals, despite the fact that they clearly dont have top tier durability and are easily harmed relative to how strong they are (Regen merchants).
As for Quanxi, the scene where she breaks her legs is not an indication of her actual durability limits. She was carrying three individuals while leaping from a significant height, meaning the scene was likely meant to emphasize the impact of weight distribution rather than suggest a genuine lack of durability.
My brother in christ you cannot just dismiss scenes that dont fit your theory as "does not indicate her durability"
Regardless, this should also be considered an outlier, as it is contradicted by her far more impressive feats, examples which you have enlisted, such as effortlessly defeating the Katana Devil and Post-Fear Boost Yoru
It is not an outlier because she is consistently paper-frail. Right after that scene she gets shot and her hand bleeds heavily, she takes exactly as much damage as a human would take. She also gets punched in the face by Yoshida and bleeds from it. Im not using this clown fear scaling logic and upscaling Yoshida's punch to City Block+ Ap or whatever so the scene retroactively makes sense with that theory, there are just too many things that dont make sense with linear fear-scaling.
especially when there are far more reliable feats that support their actual strength and durability.
Name one Quanxi durability feat. The profile doesn't even have one (its using her blocking one attack from Graveyard Pochita to scale her dura to City Block level, which is not even her tanking an attack, shes blocking it with superhuman strength which nobody said she didnt have), so you'd be making a valuable contribution here.
Also by this logic
Pingsti has City-Block+ AP, which directly contradicts the idea that physical stats scale linear with fears and also just makes no sense at all whatsoever. Even ignoring the City-Block+ AP short fall and City-Block+ AP gun at which point we are just ignoring the entire manga lol
Alright that was a lot. Its 2:30 am so im gonna take a nap, ill respond sometime tomorrow to your response then. Good night
