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It's nuanced now ? If it's that outrageous it's so easily debunkable then it shouldn't be any problem at allAnd handle all the nuances with their scaling? No thanks
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Marvel: Fantastic Four Speed Downgrade
- Thread starter StoneKillerz12
- Start date
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Counted!
Baken384
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It is outrageous if this was a Manga Character or any others character. There’s a reason why the Speed Scaling for Street Tiers in Marvel was MHS+ at one point and then suddenly downgraded to Hypersonic due to annoying scaling with other characters. Spider-Man is a character that appeared in thousands of issues with a shitton of feats to spare. Quit acting like this shit is an easy task that can be done in one weekend.It's nuanced now ? If it's that outrageous it's so easily debunkable then it shouldn't be any problem at all
Either way I remain neutral, I will forever think its outrageous but the fact shit like FF gets Rel for far less is insane too.
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Honestly, the purpose of this CRT really wasn't entirely for Relativistic+ Spider-Man, but moreso the fact that him not scaling speed-wise to the Fantastic Four is a pretty ridiculous assertion.
However, Spidey has had 10x as more laser/light dodging showings than the Fantastic Four even did, many of them being hard to write off as aim-dodging. Is it really any less consistent than stuff like Class G lifting strength, something you've made a very public CRT for that's literally below me right now in "similar threads"?
Baken384
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The Class G stuff is something i’ve been looking at in the works and that thread was wrong since I misunderstood the basics of Iron Man’s shit, and admittedly my lack of research.
Right now my research for a new “Class G” is based off the “Stress Factor” stuff that was accepted and have been looking around for feats related to it which is difficult. Reading these comics made me realize how Battleboarding statistics can be laughable.
I’m not saying its 100% wrong to say rel+ can exist, feats are feats after all butits just its hard determining a statistic that is consistent for these comic book heroes. That I realized during my conquest for a New Class G that is unrelated to the similar threads here
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Can't think of a witty Bump line this time
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Bump?
ShakeResounding
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You should probably go to some Marvel Experts to gauge their opinion.
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Maverick Zero already replied and agreed to this, FYI.
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Looks good to me.
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jason_Courne/A_compilation_of_Spider-Man's_Relativistic_feats#Reasoning
@Dalesean027 Do you think this blog should be used as supporting evidence for the Relativistic+ rating?
also Bump
@Dalesean027 Do you think this blog should be used as supporting evidence for the Relativistic+ rating?
also Bump
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Migue79 there kinda debunks it
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Not gonna vote, just gonna tag some staff (Minus the ones that already voted, DDM and Mav) because this is important.
@Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @Catzlaflame @Theglassman12 @KingTempest @ActuallySpaceMan42 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Dark-Carioca @Elizhaa @Planck69 @UchihaSlayer96 @Starter_Pack @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @Eseseso @Ultima_Reality @LephyrTheRevanchist @AbaddonTheDisappointment @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @Nierre We are in dire need of your input here.
@Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @Catzlaflame @Theglassman12 @KingTempest @ActuallySpaceMan42 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Dark-Carioca @Elizhaa @Planck69 @UchihaSlayer96 @Starter_Pack @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @Eseseso @Ultima_Reality @LephyrTheRevanchist @AbaddonTheDisappointment @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @Nierre We are in dire need of your input here.
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Looks ok to me
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So... who does this scale to? Or is there gonna be another thread for that?
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Ant, his record when it comes to activity recently is almost as spotty as VSBW standards when something someone high up doesn't like what's happening.I think that we should give M3X the chance to reply before we apply this revision.
48 hours grace period, 2 Admins and 1 Thread Mod agreeing, but sure, let's give him 168 hours and counting. If he doesn't arrive in that 168 hours, he can damn well make his own thread, and unlike last time, it should actually be applied properly.
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the moon knight calc in the OP looks wrong to me. (it's the only one i looked at because that High Hypersonic rating is just way higher than the others in the blog)
i understand it's not a pivotal part of the CRT but i'd recommend against using it as an argument
the length of the gun is somehow calculated to be 3+ metres which you can tell isn't correct just by looking at it - using Kachon's own pixelscaling lines and comparing it to Mother White's head i get ~0.66m which makes far more sense
also it seems he's getting the timeframe from the 2nd scan (where he would have already started moving) but then getting the total distance moved from the 1st scan, where he's still at the full distance from Mother White? that doesn't really make sense to me either
i understand it's not a pivotal part of the CRT but i'd recommend against using it as an argument
the length of the gun is somehow calculated to be 3+ metres which you can tell isn't correct just by looking at it - using Kachon's own pixelscaling lines and comparing it to Mother White's head i get ~0.66m which makes far more sense
also it seems he's getting the timeframe from the 2nd scan (where he would have already started moving) but then getting the total distance moved from the 1st scan, where he's still at the full distance from Mother White? that doesn't really make sense to me either
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That is not the case here. I just want us to take safety precautions.
None of them are staff members who I think seem particularly knowledgeable about this specific verse though, so again, I would prefer more input for safety reasons, and not rush such a significant thread through.
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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I know it's not the case here, it's just M3X comments once every few weeks nowadays, and waiting for him to respond every time won't help the thread not die.
Ant, 48 hours is not rushing things, frankly an entire ass week of grace as I'm suggesting is MORE than long enough for people to get their 2 cents in if they actually give a damn.
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I am not saying every time. I am just saying that from what I recall, M3X was extremely meticulous in figuring out his last Marvel street tiers speed revision, so I don't want us to accidentally mess things up.
For most of the people I called for, probably yes, but M3X does not visit very often anymore, and I don't think that we are in a hurry.
Tomfer
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Just going to highlight two problems:
This is a lie, this WILL affect scaling, and affect some of these characters.
Spider-man holding back SPEED is just a dumb concept. He's known to hold back punches, but thinking he's going to get tagged because he wants to is a poor argument.
I've DMed M3X about this thread way before this got a second page.I think that we should give M3X the chance to reply before we apply this revision.
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So all his encounters with (and times working alongside) the F4 are just going to be dismissed as outliers ?
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And that thread was applied so poorly that MHS+ feats were still on the pages even after they'd been downgraded to Hypersonic. There might have been meticulous research there, but the application of said research on the profiles was done in a 2017 edit way. Our marvel Street tiers profiles were a meme in the speed section, just like how our DC profiles like Darkseid were a massive meme in their AP sections still mentioning 1-A shit after they'd been downgraded.
TLDR: Whatever amount of effort is put in as a whole for the CRTs, none of it goes into the profiles whenever it's anything but a single character's profile rework.
What Tomfer saidFor most of the people I called for, probably yes, but M3X does not visit very often anymore, and I don't think that we are in a hurry.
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To be completely honest, I have no opinion on the speed tier that the characters end up in, but I strongly agree with the notion that the Fantastic Four shouldn’t be scaling this much higher than the likes of Spider-Man.
So, whether that means downgrading the F4 or upgrading Spidey, I’m fine with it.
So, whether that means downgrading the F4 or upgrading Spidey, I’m fine with it.
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I mean, a whole lot of characters have in their lower speed justification "Comparable to The Thing" so it would yet again be another verse-wide downgrade
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Well. think about it, if Spider-Man goes up then most of the other spider people go with him, they should be consistenly comparable to Peter, Silk herself is scaling above Peter who outright stated she was faster than him. Symbionts are also upgraded as they are equal or superior to spidey, Spider-Man's villains most likely scale too, now that we got most Spider people and villains to the same level you need to look who consistenly scales with them, Daredevil and other street tiers share villains with the spider people so they would scale too.
Oliver_de_jesus
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I'm sure Daredevil has claimed to be slower than Spiderman once, only his Radar sense is superior to Spider sense
And we know Spider-man is above a lot of street fighters such as Cap, iron fist, etc
And we know Spider-man is above a lot of street fighters such as Cap, iron fist, etc
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I've said more than once that I don't agree with street level characters scaling this high in speed, they have one feat and then dozens of anti-feats following this same feat.@M3X_2.0
We need your input here, given that I think you figured out our current speed scaling for lower-tier Marvel Comics characters.
However, I don't agree with holding threads because months/years ago I was doing active work for Marvel and DC. If everyone agrees with this, then let it be. What can I do anyway? A feat Vs anti-feat showdown?
As long as Daredevil and characters from his stories aren't changed, I don't really mind.
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Spider-Man is a speedster among street tier characters, and even high tiered characters don't have the necessary speed to keep up with him. This is not DC where most heralds have Flash-like visual representations in speed and anti-feats are unlikely to happen compared to Marvel (you won't see Superman getting blitzed or failing to react to street tiers, but you'll see Thor not reacting to Wolverine). Spider-Man, be it Peter, Miles, clones or other Spider-People, I doubt there's a huge difference in physical stats, they all should scale to each other.
Now you have to be very careful with characters scaling to Spider-Man. I'm pretty sure you can find Moon Knight keeping up with Spider-People, Taskmaster as well, despite them not operating in this same level of speed. Heck, as much as Daredevil blatantly says he's not on pair with Spider-Man in speed, you can still find ways to scale him to Peter. Unless we're doing like we did for Superman a while ago and rating his speed when holding back, because he does hold back all the time (Not like that fallacy where everyone on the internet says Peter is holding to the point of one shot his villains, that's bs), and because he holds back, things like this can happen.
Now you have to be very careful with characters scaling to Spider-Man. I'm pretty sure you can find Moon Knight keeping up with Spider-People, Taskmaster as well, despite them not operating in this same level of speed. Heck, as much as Daredevil blatantly says he's not on pair with Spider-Man in speed, you can still find ways to scale him to Peter. Unless we're doing like we did for Superman a while ago and rating his speed when holding back, because he does hold back all the time (Not like that fallacy where everyone on the internet says Peter is holding to the point of one shot his villains, that's bs), and because he holds back, things like this can happen.
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Also, yes, I'm slowly quitting from the wiki, still keeping up with a thread or another, and I have yet to make my last dance. But I'm not as active as I used to be and don't expect me to be. Don't hold threads because of me, I see the notifications and I ignore them.
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Funny you mention that, he's already been upgraded due to that
Tomfer
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I'll miss you babygirl...
He's aware, I talked to him when I was gathering scans and before making the upgrade thread.
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PrinceofPein
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So I want to say that scaling Spider-Man to the FF is fine, if the thread thinks that's consistent.
But the feats I don't like to much.
Now like I said, if you want to make Spider-Man Rel+ due to FF scaling, sure. But I disagree with literally every feat presented as direct speed evidence.
But the feats I don't like to much.
This is due to his Spider-Sense. He even directly states so in multiple instances. Using pre-cog to dodge someone's aim isn't a speed feat.
Spider-Man states he has multiple powers when he avoids her beams. Her attacks aren't something that can redirect themselves like a punch. If she fires they move in a straight line and Spider-Man is avoiding them between shots.
This would be impressive if done with just his reflexes, but its not. In the page right after Spider-Man explicitly states he's using his Spider-Sense to fight them. Every instance of dodging is done with precognition.
This has all the same issues as with the previous ones, where its assuming Spider-Man dodges after the beams are fired and not before. Despite one of his main powers being pre-cognition and the powers he used explicitly before to dodge his light beams
This feat comes from Untold Tales of Spider-Man issue 1, in which Spider-Man literally states he's using his Spider-Sense to dodge his attacks. In fact this entire run he deals with these energy attacks and every single time he notes its because of his Spider-Sense and he gets tagged whenever his senses get overwhelmed. This isn't a reflex speed feat.https://them0vieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/untoldtalesofspiderman4.jpg
The comic (Uncanny X-Men issue 346) has Spider-Man's spider-senses go off before the fight starts and during it. Additionally you're using lasers and then they're saying they're SoL because... they flew fast? That's not how speed scaling works.
That's coping. Spider-Man is literally stating his precog gives him knowledge where to dodge and his agility is getting there in time, its just that like with an earlier example he'll eventually get overwhelmed. He survives because he gets the system to destroy itself with missiles.
Now like I said, if you want to make Spider-Man Rel+ due to FF scaling, sure. But I disagree with literally every feat presented as direct speed evidence.
Ngl would be more for the former.
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