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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

SamanPatou said:
I didn't even know there was such a thing in the page.
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Same, I just discovered this while I was preparing a sandbox for Thor.

SamanPatou said:
Do we really need such a thing? I feel it's quite unrelated to everything meaningful to the indexing purpose of our profile and the writing as a whole seems quite biased and written from a not-very-neutral perspective, injecting some personal opinions into it, making it rather unprofessional.
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Agree, I don't think we need this kind of thing on the profiles (even if I also don't really like the changes in Thor's characterization)
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
This is from Thor's page:

What the hell is this?
Marvel really planning to possibly get rid of Thor?
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Dying in Marvel and DC is as much of a joke as it is in Dragon Ball. That aside, Immortal Thor has been hinting at the notion of Thor "dying" but in a way that tricks the system.
 
I very strongly doubt that they are permanently getting rid of Thor. That whole thing really just looks like a conspiracy theory. Yes, Al Ewing has been teasing Thor's death. No, there is no indication that that is part of an editorial conspiracy to entirely replace the character. That is just baseless speculation. It seems especially ridiculous to claim that this is the result of writers hating Thor's character, when Al Ewing has gone on record talking about how much he loves Thor.

Also its important to remember that Thor has died before, at least three major times (Heroes Reborn, Ragnarok, and Fear Itself). The second time, he was dead for a good three years. We are talking about comics here, Al Ewing could talk about how this time its permanent for real for real, and then one year from now another writer could just resurrect him. Also, Al Ewing has said that this death is not the end of the story is telling, so either he will be telling a story about Thor cheating death somehow, or the focus will shift to Magni. Again, legacy characters temporarily taking over when the original character briefly dies are nothing new.
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
This is from Thor's page:

What the hell is this?
Marvel really planning to possibly get rid of Thor?
Click to expand...
Well, it is certainly extremely heavily foreshadowed in a metafictional manner currently, including by repeatedly directly addressing the powerscaling community within the story, so I thought that we needed to make a comment regarding the issue. My apologies for any potential inconvenience. 🙏
 
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ObberGobb said:
I very strongly doubt that they are permanently getting rid of Thor. That whole thing really just looks like a conspiracy theory. Yes, Al Ewing has been teasing Thor's death. No, there is no indication that that is part of an editorial conspiracy to entirely replace the character. That is just baseless speculation. It seems especially ridiculous to claim that this is the result of writers hating Thor's character, when Al Ewing has gone on record talking about how much he loves Thor.
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Al Ewing seems to be the first writer in many years to not write Thor as either a hollow power fantasy or in a severely degrading manner, and a part of his work with cleaning up Thor's character has been by addressing various mischaracterisations and bad fan expectations of the character.

Also, I explicitly mentioned Ewing and Straczynski as exceptions who have written Thor properly, and if Marvel decides to get rid of and replace Thor, it would likely be an editorial decision that Al would have to adapt to.
ObberGobb said:
Also its important to remember that Thor has died before, at least three major times (Heroes Reborn, Ragnarok, and Fear Itself). The second time, he was dead for a good three years. We are talking about comics here, Al Ewing could talk about how this time its permanent for real for real, and then one year from now another writer could just resurrect him. Also, Al Ewing has said that this death is not the end of the story is telling, so either he will be telling a story about Thor cheating death somehow, or the focus will shift to Magni. Again, legacy characters temporarily taking over when the original character briefly dies are nothing new.
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Well, Marvel did try to replace Thor previously with a more politically correct female version, and only seemed to relent because of fan uproar, and again, Thor really has usually been treated as a depowered hollow caricature of himself that is humiliated as much as possible for quite a long time, and Brian Bendis half-joked in an interview that he is uncomfortable with the character because of his Jewish background, and the Garth Ennis parody character of Thor, Storm front, was a literal Nazi, and Nick Spencer made Thor into a follower of the ultranationalist supremacist Hydra copy of Captain America, so that unfortunately seems to be how quite a lot of professional writers view Thor.
 
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ObberGobb said:
Also its important to remember that Thor has died before, at least three major times (Heroes Reborn, Ragnarok, and Fear Itself).
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Wait I didn't know that, how did he die in this comic?

Antvasima said:
Also, I explicitly mentioned Ewing and Straczynski as exceptions who have written Thor properly.
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I'm currently on Dan Jurgens' run (issue 21) after reading Straczynski, Fraction, Aaron and Cates' (I haven't started Ewing's yet and I plan to read Lee/Lieber and Simonson's), and I was a bit surprised to see an extremely noble Thor with a Shakesperian way of speaking lol (and too bad we don't have that Thor anymore).
 
Ahoy true believers, come numerous, for today I bring you a revision for M.O.D.O.K.|

vsbattles.com

M.O.D.O.K. T.D.O.C.R. Thread Designed Only for Content Revision

Our file for the dear Mellow Orchid Destined Only for Knotting is severely lackluster in pretty much anything, most likely because no one felt any particular attachement to this murderous oddball. Today, I'm here to change things! New Profile - Old Profile As always, the references are all in...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
According to Thor's page:

Wouldn't that be an outlier? Mephisto is described as equal to Odin and Galactus according to his page:
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I honestly strongly disagree with the new 1-A peak for normal heralds and think it violates the comic scaling standards (seriously though, why is the 3-C herald Hercules 1-A for a single feat? Since when have our outlier/consistency rules enabled consistently 3-C characters to reach Skyfather through isolated feats?). I will say though, that I plan to downgrade any heralds scaling to Hell-Lords in the future as there are very consistent statements for Hell-Lords holding back against herald tiers, due to this weird rule about how Hell-Lords can't claim ownership of a soul that hasn't submitted to them mentally, and killing enemies without ensuring submission often denies Hell-Lords access to souls.

There's also a sort of chain reaction/weakness exploitation where characters "pure in heart" hold a special capacity for resisting attacks from Hell-Lords or overpowering them through their purity (street tiers and human tiers have overpowered Hell-Lords through this "purity" before, mind you). In Mephisto's early appearances, he was the archnemesis of Silver Surfer and to a lesser extent, Thor, and in Mephisto's early fights with both of them, there are several statements in the panels or issues before/after most of their fights about Mephisto losing due to either holding back or the purity weakness, or both. When the Yggdrasil thread was open, I was gonna go in-depth about this to argue against base "peak" Thor scaling to Mephisto, but I just got bored and gave up lol.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
I honestly strongly disagree with the new 1-A peak for normal heralds and think it violates the comic scaling standards (seriously though, why is the 3-C herald Hercules 1-A for a single feat? Since when have our outlier/consistency rules enabled consistently 3-C characters to reach Skyfather through isolated feats?). I will say though, that I plan to downgrade any heralds scaling to Hell-Lords in the future as there are very consistent statements for Hell-Lords holding back against herald tiers, due to this weird rule about how Hell-Lords can't claim ownership of a soul that hasn't submitted to them mentally, and killing enemies without ensuring submission often denies Hell-Lords access to souls.
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Not knowledgeable on Marvel Soul Lore but how does being unable to Soul Hax somebody indicative of "holding back" or a significant loss in power? Or is that something you'll go into through that CRT?
 
HenshinIntervention said:
Not knowledgeable on Marvel Soul Lore but how does being unable to Soul Hax somebody indicative of "holding back" or a significant loss in power? Or is that something you'll go into through that CRT?
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Mephisto directly states each time that he's holding back. He could realistically one-shot Silver Surfer at his peak (who has more feats of "fighting toe to toe with Mephisto" than even Thor does), but he needs to reduce his power so he doesn't accidentally kill them. He confirms that he holds back to others besides Silver Surfer too. Anyways yeah, it's something I'll go through eventually.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Mephisto directly states each time that he's holding back. He could realistically one-shot Silver Surfer at his peak (who has more feats of "fighting toe to toe with Mephisto" than even Thor does), but he needs to reduce his power so he doesn't accidentally kill them. He confirms that he holds back to others besides Silver Surfer too. Anyways yeah, it's something I'll go through eventually.
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In that case, the Mephisto stuff should be removed. Thor's 1-A rating, though, is based on his scaling to Yggdrasil, which is very consistent.
 
Just a note that regular Thor has also damaged or even beaten Galactus, fought Zeus to a draw, severely damaged Majeston Zelia, and beaten Hela in single combat, among other things. It is quite consistent for him to fight being on that level. 🙏
 
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Speaking of Silver Surfer, I've been reading into the Power Cosmic in between my regular profile updates, and though not halfway done yet, I've noticed two major things (I will say, I probably won't contribute to any of the herald speed/ap tier revisions even though my findings could be super relevant to it).

1. Silver Surfer has several to a dozen feats for time traveling through raw speed. However, there are at least 4-5 statements confirming that he achieves those feats by going light speed or somewhere moderately above it. I'm not sure whether or not that would adhere to our Immeasurable standards, so I'll have to get input on that when the time comes.

2. Nearly all websites don't really define the power cosmic correctly and specifically beyond something vague like "a reality-warping source of power distributed by Galactus." To put it simply, the power cosmic is just the essence of the Universe, and drawing power from the Universe. That's why most of it's abilities are science/physics based. Furthermore, there are consistent statements indicating that power cosmic users draw power from the infinite parts of the Universe, or they flat out scale to the infinite expanses of the Universe. That combined with "infinite power" statements (not something too vague like infinite stamina, Silver Surfer's power level is stated to be "near-infinite" at one point), and there's a solid case to be made for High 3-A, Infinite Speed being a consistent tier for mid-heralds (those who scale to heralds of Galactus).
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Speaking of Silver Surfer, I've been reading into the Power Cosmic in between my regular profile updates, and though not halfway done yet, I've noticed two major things (I will say, I probably won't contribute to any of the herald speed/ap tier revisions even though my findings could be super relevant to it).

1. Silver Surfer has several to a dozen feats for time traveling through raw speed. However, there are at least 4-5 statements confirming that he achieves those feats by going light speed or somewhere moderately above it. I'm not sure whether or not that would adhere to our Immeasurable standards, so I'll have to get input on that when the time comes.

2. Nearly all websites don't really define the power cosmic correctly and specifically beyond something vague like "a reality-warping source of power distributed by Galactus." To put it simply, the power cosmic is just the essence of the Universe, and drawing power from the Universe. That's why most of it's abilities are science/physics based. Furthermore, there are consistent statements indicating that power cosmic users draw power from the infinite parts of the Universe, or they flat out scale to the infinite expanses of the Universe. That combined with "infinite power" statements (not something too vague like infinite stamina, Silver Surfer's power level is stated to be "near-infinite" at one point), and there's a solid case to be made for High 3-A, Infinite Speed being a consistent tier for mid-heralds (those who scale to heralds of Galactus).
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Point 1 is something I can definitely agree with, Silver Surfer is notorious for just traveling across everything and anything.
Point 2 might be more contentious but agreeable I guess. As long as Surfer isn't holding back and simply using the Power Cosmic for non Universal feats against others.
 
Antvasima said:
Just a note that regular Thor has also damaged or even beaten Galactus, fought Zeus to a draw, severely damaged Majeston Zelia, and beaten Hela in single combat, among other things. It is quite consistent for him to fight being on that level. 🙏
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So we just need to update the reasoning at some point?
 
Jimmy.robinson.5099 said:
So we just need to update the reasoning at some point?
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Yeah, the Mephisto part just needs to be removed, I think everything else is fine.

What does everyone think of Hela though? She's affiliated with the Hell Lords, being a member of the group, but it technically a Death God. Furthermore, her statements during both of her fights with Thor imply to me she isn't holding back. Should we treat fighting her the same way we do Mephisto, or are those fights good to keep as justifications?
 
ObberGobb said:
Yeah, the Mephisto part just needs to be removed, I think everything else is fine.

What does everyone think of Hela though? She's affiliated with the Hell Lords, being a member of the group, but it technically a Death God. Furthermore, her statements during both of her fights with Thor imply to me she isn't holding back. Should we treat fighting her the same way we do Mephisto, or are those fights good to keep as justifications?
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Eh, it's probably good ¯\(ツ)/¯.
 
ObberGobb said:
Yeah, the Mephisto part just needs to be removed, I think everything else is fine.

What does everyone think of Hela though? She's affiliated with the Hell Lords, being a member of the group, but it technically a Death God. Furthermore, her statements during both of her fights with Thor imply to me she isn't holding back. Should we treat fighting her the same way we do Mephisto, or are those fights good to keep as justifications?
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I think it's either an outlier or that the Hell Lords are not all equal in power (as Satannish's page seems to imply by saying he is one of the two Hell-Lords who is close to Mephisto in power) and that Hela is one of the weakest of them.
 
Didn't Hela also fight Mephisto to a draw in what was described as potential multiversal destructive output or somesuch during Tom DeFalco's Thor era?

I do not think that it is an outlier for Thor at his peak to fight Mephisto, so we should probably keep those feats. 🙏
 
SamanPatou said:
I fundamentally care rather little for the tier, I was referring more to P&A, intelligence and general welfare of the profile, which are quite lackluster in many aspects.
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How many people actually care for low heralds or higher mid tiers? There are over 100 profiles around that level and little to no one to update them, be my guest if you wanna help.
 
Well, if he returns to our forum some day, he is free to set up a new wiki account and return to his staff position here. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I do not think that it is an outlier for Thor at his peak to fight Mephisto, so we should probably keep those feats. 🙏
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Thor physically damaging Mephisto is probably not an outlier imo, but beating or stalemateing him when he's described as equal to Odin? Would that mean Thor is superior to Odin?

SamanPatou said:
I fundamentally care rather little for the tier, I was referring more to P&A, intelligence and general welfare of the profile, which are quite lackluster in many aspects.
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I plan on doing this for Thor and Classic Loki, and maybe create a profile for Modern Loki, but I haven't read his comics yet, soon (unless others have already planned to do so).

Edit: and maybe Hercules
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Thor physically damaging Mephisto is probably not an outlier imo, but beating or stalemateing him when he's described as equal to Odin? Would that mean Thor is superior to Odin?
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Thor going all out by using his God-Blast can use power on a level with Odin at least, and Mephisto was probably not considered equal to Odin back then. 🙏
 
Excellence616 said:
Infinite Speed for 3-Cs heralds?
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Yeah, 3-C's being bumped to High 3-A, from Mftl to infinite. Ironically, I recorded far more "immeasurable" feats than infinite feats.
image.png
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I don't think other mid-heralds should scale to Immeasurable in any case tbh.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Yeah, 3-C's being bumped to High 3-A, from Mftl to infinite. Ironically, I recorded far more "immeasurable" feats than infinite feats.

I don't think other mid-heralds should scale to Immeasurable in any case tbh.
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wait isn't Hyperspace also Subspace? That would mean he entered a place infinitely bigger and more dangerous through sheer speed, since Hyperspace/Subspace is a Higher Dimensional location.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Yeah, 3-C's being bumped to High 3-A, from Mftl to infinite. Ironically, I recorded far more "immeasurable" feats than infinite feats.
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Some High 3-As shouldn't even be High 3-A of which i am going to downgrade them to 3-C. How is bumping 3-Cs to High 3-A going to work🤨?
ProfectusInfinity said:
I don't think other mid-heralds should scale to Immeasurable in any case tbh.
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Yeah
 
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