TenSura LN Major Revision - Monotheistic God (Attempt 2)

[Astral_Trinity439]

Introduction​

Hello everyone, hope ya'll are doing well. As ya'll know, Volume 22 is out, introducing to us some new information, as well as solidifying previously mentioned statements that were initially considered vague. And if you've already read the title, you probably know what this CRT is gonna be about. But to elaborate anyways (cuz I like yapping), its a re-attempt to decide God's tier, the "Supreme being" of the Slime verse.
As always, pleas refrain from showcasing any toxic behavior or derailing the thread!

Table of Content​

So, here are the proposals:

Astral Trinity439/Ethereal

vsbattles.fandom.com

And for those who can't get to fandom (for whatever reason it may be so) or are just lazy, here are the main points:

Spoiler: The Ethereal

All-In-One and One-In-All: God is the Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, All-Encompassing, All-In-One and One-In-All (Where All was One and One was All) outside which no thing or piece exists (Not a missing piece to it), that which lacks absolutely nothing.

Source and End of All Existence: God is the source of All Existence, the first in the Infinite Chain of Reason, and also its ultimate End.

Nirvana: God is the unconditioned and unrestrained state of Nirvana unbound by any limitation, the Promised Land, to which all is but a mere story, the Ethereal and All-Encompassing to which all illusions return to.

Removal of Qualities: God cannot be reached simply by stacking power into a unity. Rather, as it is the lack of them, it can only be reached when one's Consciousness/Ego vanishes thus returns to the All-Encompassing Completeness. Said Ego is the preposition on which a thing determines itself as existing, the I THINK, THEREFORE I AM.

Acausal: The Cycle of Cause and Effect was self-inflicted by Veldanava on himself, as his original form was not bound to such things, so much so that even to experience change, it manifested as an Avatar, as Veldanava.

Holy Spirit: God is the Holy Spirit.

Avatars: Ramiris is another Avatar of God

Summary:
God is shown as the lack of all Qualities that is also superior to Qualities in all ways, while being beyond Cause and Effect.
Ivarage (profile does not exist yet), Veldanava and Ramiris are avatars of God. The first two are practically already known (and Veldanava's case has been discussed about in the previous tier 0 thread).
For Ramiris, she is the one who bestows the Blessings of the Great Holy Spirit and is a "Guide to the Holy One", in other words, an avatar that grants beings the blessing of the Great Holy Spirit.

TL;DR?
I want to say Tier 0, but I'm not in a hurry this time, so a minimum of High 1-A is what I propose. Meanwhile, if the staff (Ultima and the other experts) see this as fitting enough for Tier 0 or any tier higher than High 1-A, and gets accepted, that is completely fine with me as well either way.
Although I did talk to @Ultima_Reality on it on discord, and seeing the description [although unsure if they read the scans], they said its fine for Tier 0. Regardless, opinions can change, so you can take that with grain of salt.

Reason for minimum High 1-A:

• God naturally encompasses the entire cosmology in its indivisible wholeness.
• The cosmology includes dualities like Reality and Fiction, Truth and False, Substance and illusion, etc. Aka, the difference between those two things is qualitative, and God lacks this distinction via encompassing both. See this distinction in-verse for example.
• Additionally, although not a direct reason for High 1-A, it would also encompass the Great Spirits that Veldanava created. Great Spirits are type 1 concepts, including the great spirit of space/sky and time. Thus, God also encompasses all of space and time.

Notes
For everyone participating in this thread, please note that various arguments were already answered in the previous thread on this topic. Thus, I hope this thread won't just be a repeat of its predecessor.

Counter-Arguments
This part will be answering various counter-arguments, including those against Tier 0, and those against High 1-A or even 1-A. To avoid confusion, I will place a mark [T0, H1-A, 1-A] at the start of each argument to clarify which tier the argument is against. With that said, let's get to answering:

Spoiler: Counters

• T0: Veldanava gave up his omniscience and omnipotence, but a Tier 0 cannot become a Non-Tier 0, wouldn't that be a contradiction?

Answer : Not at all, since Veldanava itself was the means that God used to give up his omnipotence, that is, creating an Avatar. Proof of which is that the All-Encompassing Completeness still exists. Even more so is the fact that Veldanava was willed into existence and was born/created, and the fact that the form of all True Dragons we see, such as Veldora, Velzard, etc., are just avatars of their True Form. The same applies to Veldanava, the only difference is that his True Form is a bit more special.

• T0: But Veldanava describe his True Form, doesn't that mean he could comprehend it even though Veldanava himself is not Tier 0?

Answer : Again, not at all, since Veldanava being inherently aware of his True Form does not mean he can comprehend it. Even normal True Dragons are inherently aware of their True Form, inasmuch as Veldora describing his True Form, but that does not, by any means, imply that he can comprehend his True Form. Even more so, if its in that sense, even we can describe God, such as in Negative or Positive Theology, inasmuch as calling him by a name, God, or describing him by a term, such as The Omnipotent, The All-Encompassing, does that mean we are reducing the Ineffability of God and can understand him? Not at all, by any means, No.

• T0: As per what Ultima said here, it just seems this "entity" is akin to the unity of all qualities (one-being/essence itself), but not quite transcendent over them.

Answer: Not at all. Refer to the "Removal of Qualities" and "Nirvana" section for context. Additionally, compared to it, everything is an illusion that is ultimately reduced to itself, thus showing its superiority over everything. And as shown with Michael, one reunites with God when one is erased down to their ego and everything else [Ego is the most fundamental aspect of a being in-verse]

• T0: As per what Ultima said here as well, God is not Tier 0 as One-ness alone does not qualify for such a tier; Tier 0 lacks the distinction between "one" and "many".

Answer: God isn't just some One-ness [All-in-one], but rather both All-in-one and one-in-all. That is, it lacks the distinction between even one-ness and many-ness by being both.

• T0: Ivarage and Veldanava are seemingly described as "one-half of each other, God as a whole", which is an anti-feat as a Tier 0 is indivisible and cannot be divided in parts.

Answer: Read the "God's Existence" point in the sandbox for an answer to this. Additionally, read the "Acausal" point in the main argument, which also answers this. Ivarage and Veldanava are both avatar of God, not God itself "divided into two parts".

• High 1-A and 1-A: What suggests that God encompasses both Reality and Fiction, or simply, both qualitatively distinct layers, when never directly stated to do so?

Answer: God is "All-Encompassing", The term itself is self-sufficient when not used as a metaphor [such as "love is all-encompassing". In this case, it is not, and is rather used in context to a Monadic being. In addition to that, it is also stated that there is no "thing" or "piece" missing for God, or that God does not lack "anything". That goes to say what kind of "All-encompassing nature" it has; It is so all-encompassing that nothing exists outside of it.

Note: More counter-arguments will be added over-time as the thread progresses.

Votes​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

____________________________________________________________________________________________
That was all. Hope ya'll enjoyed reading!

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Agree
I want to see tier 0 tho

 

[Tempestdragon6]

agree

 

[Velvian_can]

Read it in advance, good enough. Agree
It surpassed my expectations imma be honest

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Agree, tho it's self evident T0

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Introduction​

Hello everyone, hope ya'll are doing well. As ya'll know, Volume 22 is out, introducing to us some new information, as well as solidifying previously mentioned statements that were initially considered vague. And if you've already read the title, you probably know what this CRT is gonna be about. But to elaborate anyways (cuz I like yapping), its a re-attempt to decide God's tier, the "Supreme being" of the Slime verse.
As always, pleas refrain from showcasing any toxic behavior or derailing the thread!

Table of Content​

So, here are the proposals:

Astral Trinity439/Ethereal

vsbattles.fandom.com

And for those who can't get to fandom (for whatever reason it may be so) or are just lazy, here are the main points:

Spoiler: The Ethereal

All-In-One and One-In-All: God is the Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, All-Encompassing, All-In-One and One-In-All (Where All was One and One was All) outside which no thing or piece exists (Not a missing piece to it), that which lacks absolutely nothing.

Source and End of All Existence: God is the source of All Existence, the first in the Infinite Chain of Reason, and also its ultimate End.

Nirvana: God is the unconditioned and unrestrained state of Nirvana unbound by any limitation, the Promised Land, to which all is but a mere story, the Ethereal and All-Encompassing to which all illusions return to.

Removal of Qualities: God cannot be reached simply by stacking power into a unity. Rather, as it is the lack of them, it can only be reached when one's Consciousness/Ego vanishes thus returns to the All-Encompassing Completeness. Said Ego is the preposition on which a thing determines itself as existing, the I THINK, THEREFORE I AM.

Acausal: The Cycle of Cause and Effect was self-inflicted by Veldanava on himself, as his original form was not bound to such things, so much so that even to experience change, it manifested as an Avatar, as Veldanava.

Holy Spirit: God is the Holy Spirit.

Avatars: Ramiris is another Avatar of God

Summary:
God is shown as the lack of all Qualities that is also superior to Qualities in all ways, while being beyond Cause and Effect.
Ivarage (profile does not exist yet), Veldanava and Ramiris are avatars of God. The first two are practically already known (and Veldanava's case has been discussed about in the previous tier 0 thread).
For Ramiris, she is the one who bestows the Blessings of the Great Holy Spirit and is a "Guide to the Holy One", in other words, an avatar that grants beings the blessing of the Great Holy Spirit.

TL;DR?
I want to say Tier 0, but I'm not in a hurry this time, so a minimum of High 1-A is what I propose. Meanwhile, if the staff (Ultima and the other experts) see this as fitting enough for Tier 0 or any tier higher than High 1-A, and gets accepted, that is completely fine with me as well either way.
Although I did talk to @Ultima_Reality on it on discord, and seeing the description [although unsure if they read the scans], they said its fine for Tier 0. Regardless, opinions can change, so you can take that with grain of salt.

Reason for minimum High 1-A:

• God naturally encompasses the entire cosmology in its indivisible wholeness.
• The cosmology includes dualities like Reality and Fiction, Truth and False, Substance and illusion, etc. Aka, the difference between those two things is qualitative, and God lacks this distinction via encompassing both.
• Additionally, although not a direct reason for High 1-A, it would also encompass the Great Spirits that Veldanava created. Great Spirits are type 1 concepts, including the great spirit of space/sky and time. Thus, God also encompasses all of space and time.

Notes
For everyone participating in this thread, please note that various arguments were already answered in the previous thread on this topic. Thus, I hope this thread won't just be a repeat of its predecessor.

Counter-Arguments
This part will be answering various counter-arguments, including those against Tier 0, and those against High 1-A or even 1-A. To avoid confusion, I will place a mark [T0, H1-A, 1-A] at the start of each argument to clarify which tier the argument is against. With that said, let's get to answering:

Spoiler: Counters

• T0: Veldanava gave up his omniscience and omnipotence, but a Tier 0 cannot become a Non-Tier 0, wouldn't that be a contradiction?

Answer : Not at all, since Veldanava itself was the means that God used to give up his omnipotence, that is, creating an Avatar. Proof of which is that the All-Encompassing Completeness still exists. Even more so is the fact that Veldanava was willed into existence and was born/created, and the fact that the form of all True Dragons we see, such as Veldora, Velzard, etc., are just avatars of their True Form. The same applies to Veldanava, the only difference is that his True Form is a bit more special.

• T0: But Veldanava describe his True Form, doesn't that mean he could comprehend it even though Veldanava himself is not Tier 0?

Answer : Again, not at all, since Veldanava being inherently aware of his True Form does not mean he can comprehend it. Even normal True Dragons are inherently aware of their True Form, inasmuch as Veldora describing his True Form, but that does not, by any means, imply that he can comprehend his True Form. Even more so, if its in that sense, even we can describe God, such as in Negative or Positive Theology, inasmuch as calling him by a name, God, or describing him by a term, such as The Omnipotent, The All-Encompassing, does that mean we are reducing the Ineffability of God and can understand him? Not at all, by any means, No.

• T0: As per what Ultima said here, it just seems this "entity" is akin to the unity of all qualities (one-being/essence itself), but not quite transcendent over them.

Answer: Not at all. Refer to the "Removal of Qualities" and "Nirvana" section for context. Additionally, compared to it, everything is an illusion that is ultimately reduced to itself, thus showing its superiority over everything. And as shown with Michael, one reunites with God when one is erased down to their ego and everything else [Ego is the most fundamental aspect of a being in-verse]

• T0: As per what Ultima said here as well, God is not Tier 0 as One-ness alone does not qualify for such a tier; Tier 0 lacks the distinction between "one" and "many".

Answer: God isn't just some One-ness [All-in-one], but rather both All-in-one and one-in-all. That is, it lacks the distinction between even one-ness and many-ness by being both.

• T0: Ivarage and Veldanava are seemingly described as "one-half of each other, God as a whole", which is an anti-feat as a Tier 0 is indivisible and cannot be divided in parts.

Answer: Read the "God's Existence" point in the sandbox for an answer to this. Additionally, read the "Acausal" point in the main argument, which also answers this. Ivarage and Veldanava are both avatar of God, not God itself "divided into two parts".

• High 1-A and 1-A: What suggests that God encompasses both Reality and Fiction, or simply, both qualitatively distinct layers, when never directly stated to do so?

Answer: God is "All-Encompassing", The term itself is self-sufficient when not used as a metaphor [such as "love is all-encompassing". In this case, it is not, and is rather used in context to a Monadic being. In addition to that, it is also stated that there is no "thing" or "piece" missing for God, or that God does not lack "anything". That goes to say what kind of "All-encompassing nature" it has; It is so all-encompassing that nothing exists outside of it.

Note: More counter-arguments will be added over-time as the thread progresses.

Votes​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

____________________________________________________________________________________________
That was all. Hope ya'll enjoyed reading!

Will check this later.

For reference: I haven't seen the scans. So what I said was fine as Tier 0 on Discord was like, your interpretation of what they say, I guess. (Before I promptly forgot about this)

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

I agree

 

[Gasfo]

I am neutral on this,
using trinity for tier-0 is kinda wild

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Agree. (Hurry up and add scans for true dragons so they can get 1-A or high 1-A if tier 0 is accepted ) also if this is accepted,does that mean type 1 concepts are also accepted?) ultima is going to disappear again so you better hurry and make the cosmology thread.

 

[Berga14]

Agree for tier 0
No H1A weakling is hallowed

 

[Cloelolo_60021]

Agree this thread is the most real in ours vs battle wiki history

 

[Verlice_tempest]

if this is accepted,does that mean type 1 concepts are also accepted?

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

Agree

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

Talking about 1-A versions…

 

[Berga14]

Type 1 concepts are already accepted in verse, for all great spirits, and possibly 1A for em too

Talking about 1-A versions…

This is a tier 0 crt, rn isn't the moment for 1A concept. If you guys want to talk about other things go somewhere else, do not derail this thread. Do not answer to this message.

 

[Curcuma_x_curcuma]

.

 

[Justanormalvinlandguy]

Agree

 

[Napoleonic01]

Agree as always and thanks for answering a question of mind that being why Ramiris is involved

 

[Blueicemonkey]

God's Existence: There may be a misunderstanding that God is divided into two parts, Ivarage and Veldanava, or that God does not exist anymore, etc., but that is utterly false as not only did Michael return to the All-Encompassing Completeness after his Ego and entire being was erased, but Ramiris, another avatar of God, can still grant people God's blessing

Pretty sure Michael just felt comfort as if he was returning to Veldanava when he was absorbed by Rimuru, who like in the WN seems to be his reincarnation. At no point he is actually returning to Veldanava/God.

With that said, Rimuru broke off the conversation. His hand came to rest on Michael.

“Devour all things, ‘Void God Azathoth’!”

For the first time in this world, the ultimate and most powerful skill bared its fangs. The irresistible power of peace—the ‘Soul Devourer’, swallowed up all of Michael.

………

……

…

In truth, he understood. That He, his creator, had abandoned him. He didn’t want to admit it, so he had struggled with it until now. But that was over now. It was warm with an all-encompassing completeness. A familiar comfort.

Ah, I see, Michael thought as he faded away.

Perhaps everything had just been a misunderstanding. Everything was here, and he felt himself becoming a part of it. Michael was no longer alone. This was inevitable, it must have all been part of a harmonious plan.

—Ah…my wish has been granted. Feldway, my only regret is leaving you behind—

It suddenly occurred to him, and—

Michael’s consciousness vanished into thin air.

Rimuru confirms that he just absorbed and Michael was delusional:

In the end, I showed him the ‘Void Collapse, World of a Thousand Blooming Changes,’ which may have been a test in battle for Ciel-san, but for me it was a final gift to Michael. I defeated Michael, but at the end, I was asked a strange question.

‘Who are you?’ Even if asked, I’m honestly not sure.

I am me. It’s nothing more than that. However, that doesn’t mean there isn’t anything that comes to mind. Michael probably noticed Ciel-san’s existence. That’s why I wanted to have them communicate from Manas to fellow Manas.

Michael seemed to be proud of being a Manas, so it would be surprising for him to learn of Ciel-san’s existence, but it was the last time, so there was no problem. With that in mind, I activated my first use of the ‘Soul Devourer’ ability on Michael.

Feldway in the next volume confirms Michael's death:

A bad premonition was making Feldway’s heart pound. And then, the message was delivered.

«Ah…my wish has been granted. Feldway, my only regret is leaving you behind…»

This was the ‘thought’ that Michael, who was on the verge of disappearing, sent to Feldway with the last of his strength. He could feel Michael’s power inside him. However, Michael’s ‘will’ was no longer there. This was confirmation of Michael’s “death.”

We know that Rimuru's Predation and its evolutions can bring confort to those who are devoured. It happened to Geld, Shizue and Yuuki (this one in the WN).



Honestly, this seems to be making an entire new character of just what was Veldanava's pre-creation self. Veldanava actively depowered himself, his god-self didn't hang around even if it was omnipotent.

The entire theory is also putting a lot of weight in Michael's words, who was wrong about how to revive Veldanava and even Feldway doubted his theory:

It had been Michael, not Feldway, who was obsessed about collecting angelic powers. Since he had been the will that resided in the powers, he thought that consolidating all the other powers into one would lead to the all-powerful. All-powerful—in other words, the return of the omniscient and omnipotent Creator.

The theory seemed logical, but Feldway was skeptical. The reason was that Veldanava was not omniscient and omnipotent. In the first place, since Veldanava himself had said that he renounced his omniscience and omnipotence, there was no room to doubt his words. On the contrary, Feldway even thought about how nice it would be if Veldanava had lied. If that were the case, he would not have lost his power and been killed by human

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Pretty sure Michael just felt comfort as if he was returning to Veldanava when he was absorbed by Rimuru, who like in the WN seems to be his reincarnation. At no point he is actually returning to Veldanava/God.

The scan should be pretty self explanatory so everything I say will simply recount what was said. Michael goal was to bring back omnipotent veldanava.as he felt veldanava abandoned him.
Yet let’s take a look at what he said.



1.) A familiar comfort.


'Ah, I see' —Michael thought as he faded away.


Perhaps everything had just been a misunderstanding.



EXPLANATION:

(Everything he thought about veldanava abandoning him was a misunderstanding as veldanava still exists)




2.) Everything was here, and he felt himself becoming a part of it.


Michael was no longer alone.


EXPLANATION

(Everything was there. God is all in one/one in all. So he was simply returning )



3.) This was inevitable, it must have all been part of a harmonious plan.



EXPLANATION:

(Him becoming part of it is inevitable,it was fated that it would happen.the absolute truth of the world is literally to become one with god.)



The most important part. He literally says that his wish was granted.his wish was to bring back OMNIPOTENT veldanava,this is self explanatory

You literally have all the scans needed to come to an obvious conclusion .

Rimuru confirms that he just absorbed and Michael was delusional:


Feldway in the next volume confirms Michael's death:


We know that Rimuru's Predation and its evolutions can bring confort to those who are devoured. It happened to Geld, Shizue and Yuuki (this one in the WN).



Honestly, this seems to be making an entire new character of just what was Veldanava's pre-creation self. Veldanava actively depowered himself, his god-self didn't hang around even if it was omnipotent.

This was already explained with other scans as well as the other thread. Go read that one

The entire theory is also putting a lot of weight in Michael's words, who was wrong about how to revive Veldanava and even Feldway doubted his theory:

Also explained already.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Pretty sure Michael just felt comfort as if he was returning to Veldanava when he was absorbed by Rimuru, who like in the WN seems to be his reincarnation. At no point he is actually returning to Veldanava/God.

Rimuru is not veldanava's reincarnation, stop with those internet theories and head-canons. Ciel even stated herself in Volume 18 that Veldanava himself can come back any time but willingly doesn't.
There are countless other things directly hinting Rimuru isn't veldanava in any way. This was a dead internet theory a few years ago, but can't believe people still think it's true. Regardless, as explained, head-canons.

Rimuru confirms that he just absorbed and Michael was delusional:

This nowhere says the "return to all-encompassing completeness" was a delusion from Michael. Sure, rimuru used soul devour on Michael, but just absorbed his skill information and stuff (information particles), the most fundamental part, the ego/consciousness, ultimately simply vanished into thin air, it was erased.
And no one else in the series is termed as "all-encompassing completeness", unless metaphorically (such as "love is all-encompassing" or alike), as as I remember.

Feldway in the next volume confirms Michael's death:

Yeah, this literally doesn't negate any of what I said. Michael did die, but he returned to the Godhead upon death.

We know that Rimuru's Predation and its evolutions can bring confort to those who are devoured. It happened to Geld, Shizue and Yuuki (this one in the WN).

Not gonna go into WN due to it being a different canonity, but again, that doesn't mean anything against my point. It bringing comfort to when they are dying doesn't mean they don't return to the Godhead regardless. Those two points don't contradicting each other.
Plus on the occasion where Michael was mentioned, the term "Harmonious Plan" is mentioned, the Japanese kanji of which refers to Pre-established harmony (read the previous thread I linked for more info on that).

The fact that it was said "Everything was here, and he felt himself becoming a part of it" further supports the fact that he returned to the all-encompassing omnipotent.

The multiple other statements in the op showing how this is like a nirvana-after-death state just further supports what I said.

Honestly, this seems to be making an entire new character of just what was Veldanava's pre-creation self. Veldanava actively depowered himself, his god-self didn't hang around even if it was omnipotent.

This was already excessively discussed in the previous CRT linked in the op. Read that, because I don't want repeated arguments here, as clarified in the op.

The entire theory is also putting a lot of weight in Michael's words, who was wrong about how to revive Veldanava and even Feldway doubted his theory:

Michael's theory of resurrecting veldanava (in that bringing together all of the powers he had post-creation would resurrect him) being proven wrong by feldway actually proves that this all-encompassing god-character is not just pre-creation veldanava. Feldway himself said that since veldanava was affected by the cycle of cause and effect, it proves that he isn't omnipotent, because, as explained in the important notes in the sandbox, and in the previous CRT linked, the all-encompassing God manifested veldanava as an avatar because it couldn't experience change itself, which goes to show that "veldanava" and "god" are two independent entities but with a relation between them.

Do note that there are several things hinting that God still exists, like the Nirvana statement from Carrera, the Ethereal statement, the thing I said above, Michael returning to God, everything being a "Harmonious plan", Ramiris being the guide to the Holy Spirit (which in this context is directly called God), etc.

This + everything @PHANtomFELdway said above is enough to clear these doubts and head-canons like "rimuru is veldanava's reincarnation".

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Pretty sure Michael just felt comfort as if he was returning to Veldanava when he was absorbed by Rimuru, who like in the WN seems to be his reincarnation. At no point he is actually returning to Veldanava/God.

Literally nothing at all in ln continuity had suggested rimuru being reincarnation for veldanava, the wn and ln continuity is different from eachother so your presumption does need an explicit evidence to support this random claim

It was warm with an all-encompassing completeness. A familiar comfort.

Perhaps everything had just been a misunderstanding. Everything was here, and he felt himself becoming a part of it. Michael was no longer alone. This was inevitable, it must have all been part of a harmonious plan.

Michael’s consciousness vanished into thin air

Here as michael's ego/the awareness or consciousness was getting absorbed, he felt himself being one with "all encompassing one-ness", everything was there which also connects to statement of description of god according to veldanava as a complete and perfect being lacking nothing, and to the promise land where everyone are waiting

So yes the statement do directly refer to god

We know that Rimuru's Predation and its evolutions can bring confort to those who are devoured. It happened to Geld, Shizue and Yuuki (this one in the WN).

Wn continuity doesn't matter and ego, the complete existence wasn't erased

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

@PHANtomFELdway @Verlice_tempest

Y'all already know my discord and share servers with me, so from here onwards, let's discuss on discord first as to who is gonna reply to oppositions. 3 people (including myself) relying to the same thing with similar counters quite a bit of yapping writing is gonna make this thread too long and difficult to read.

We can all get our chances, no need to make it too lengthy and repeating.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I took a look at the prologue to Volume 22 and...

In order not to disturb Ultima again with Volume 22 anytime soon. I think the parts about God in Volume 22 should also be translated into a wiki translator and brought up here.


The part where Ivaraj compares God's omnipotence to being in a dream may mean something for 1-A and above, considering the other expressions.

In addition, it should be discussed Ivaraj and Veldanava, who are claimed to be just an avatar of God in this thread, are actually two parts that God was divided into after gave up being omnipotent, and whether the point of whether a Tier 0 character can give up singularity and indivisibility will be evaluated by Ultima and constitute an anti-feat for Tier 0.

Yes, I'm leaving now.

(By the way, if there was something badass than the accepted Tier 0 thread in this wiki, it would be the accepted Tier 0 downgrade thread)

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I took a look at the prologue to Volume 22 and...

In order not to disturb Ultima again with Volume 22 anytime soon. I think the parts about God in Volume 22 should also be translated into a wiki translator and brought up here.


The part where Ivaraj compares God's omnipotence to being in a dream may mean something for 1-A and above, considering the other expressions.

In addition, it should be discussed Ivaraj and Veldanava, who are claimed to be just an avatar of God in this thread, are actually two parts that God was divided into after gave up being omnipotent, and whether the point of whether a Tier 0 character can give up singularity and indivisibility will be evaluated by Ultima and constitute an anti-feat for Tier 0.

Yes, I'm leaving now.

(By the way, if there was something badass than the accepted Tier 0 thread in this wiki, it would be the accepted Tier 0 downgrade thread)

The ‘split’ doesn’t mean that the Godhead lost its tier 0 status as the Godhead might have chosen to express itself as Veldanava and Ivarage while still existing beyond them, meaning that both Veldanava and Ivarage are still manifestations of the Godhead.

My dreamlike sense of omnipotence vanished, leaving me exposed to a reality I couldn't
see ahead of me.

In order to swallow up everything and return to the all one…

The text states that Ivarage seeks to "swallow everything and return to the All One," suggesting that the split is not a true limitation but rather a temporary or illusory state. If everything ultimately merges back into the Godhead, then its fundamental nature remains unchanged.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I took a look at the prologue to Volume 22 and...

In order not to disturb Ultima again with Volume 22 anytime soon. I think the parts about God in Volume 22 should also be translated into a wiki translator and brought up here.


The part where Ivaraj compares God's omnipotence to being in a dream may mean something for 1-A and above, considering the other expressions.

This is just confirmation for the world being a dream/illusion that returns back to god

In addition, it should be discussed Ivaraj and Veldanava, who are claimed to be just an avatar of God in this thread, are actually two parts that God was divided into after gave up being omnipotent, and whether the point of whether a Tier 0 character can give up singularity and indivisibility will be evaluated by Ultima and constitute an anti-feat for Tier 0.

Like I said above. The fact that everything returns to god proves that it still exists. She even says she was abandoned. Veldanava didn’t even know about her.these points were already explained

Yes, I'm leaving now.

(By the way, if there was something badass than the accepted Tier 0 thread in this wiki, it would be the accepted Tier 0 downgrade thread)

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In addition, it should be discussed Ivaraj and Veldanava, who are claimed to be just an avatar of God in this thread, are actually two parts that God was divided into after gave up being omnipotent, and whether the point of whether a Tier 0 character can give up singularity and indivisibility will be evaluated by Ultima and constitute an anti-feat for Tier 0

Just from reading this, it seems you didn't r we the sandbox and only the summaries in op. Regardless, I will add the same explanation directly to the op that I "discussed" in the sandbox. It was made very clear that canonically, something like "God dividing itself into two parts" is not possible for various reasons. The same was also discussed briefly in the previous tier 0 thread regarding God's changeless nature.

In order not to disturb Ultima again with Volume 22 anytime soon. I think the parts about God in Volume 22 should also be translated into a wiki translator and brought up here.

Sure, I'll confirm with the wiki translators later today when I get free (not rn).

As for everything else, I believe @PHANtomFELdway already answered it.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Like I said above. The fact that everything returns to god proves that it still exists. She even says she was abandoned. Veldanava didn’t even know about her.these points were already explained

That, plus the many other statements, such as the thing with Ramiris and her role, Kondou's death scene, Michael's death scene, etc.

 

[CodeCCLL]

The ‘split’ doesn’t mean that the Godhead lost its tier 0 status

Ultima will decide this, not me.

it seems you didn't r we the sandbox and only the summaries in op.

No, I read it, it just didn't seem convincing some points.

something like "God dividing itself into two parts" is not possible for various reasons.

Nothing you have mentioned is sufficient to invalidate the direct statement that the “whole” is divided into 2 halves, Veldanava and Ivaraj. The best that can be claimed here is that the whole formed by Ivaraj and Veldanava is also a part of "All-One".

Anyway, I have nothing to discuss here. Just, make sure Ultima sees everything.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Ultima will decide this, not me.

True enough.

No, I read it, it just didn't seem convincing some points.

You're free to mention out those points.

Nothing you have mentioned is sufficient to invalidate the direct statement that the “whole” is divided into 2 halves, Veldanava and Ivaraj. The best that can be claimed here is that the whole formed by Ivaraj and Veldanava is also a part of "All-One".

If the whole was really divided into veldanava and ivarage, the "all-encompassing" would no longer exist, which isn't the case here. Which means it wasn't divided to begin with, and more so that it manifested avatars.

Want another analogy? Remember how rimuru's subordinates believed that rimuru didn't die at EoST because they still had his protection, right? Well, turns out Ramiris grants the protection/blessing of the Great Holy Spirit/God, which itself requires the Godhead to exist.

Anyway, I have nothing to discuss here. Just, make sure Ultima sees everything.

I have presented everything in open for Ultima to see. If I see any more relevant statements while translating, I will present those as well, yes.

 

[CodeCCLL]

If the whole was really divided into veldanava and ivarage, the "all-encompassing" would no longer exist, which isn't the case here. Which means it wasn't divided to begin with, and more so that it manifested avatars.

All-encompassing's/All-One, whatever you call it, is now definitely split into two parts as Veldanava and Ivaraj. This is an important plot point and not something you can ignore. The fact that Ivaraj still talks about an All-One and Michael talks about an All-encompassing, as I said, at best means that the whole formed by Veldanava and Ivaraj is also a part of the All-encompassing.

 

[Berga14]

All-encompassing's/All-One, whatever you call it, is now definitely split into two parts as Veldanava and Ivaraj. This is an important plot point and not something you can ignore. The fact that Ivaraj still talks about an All-One and Michael talks about an All-encompassing, as I said, at best means that the whole formed by Veldanava and Ivaraj is also a part of the All-encompassing.

I interpretated it in this way:
Ivarage doesn't feel complete anymore because she isn't this "omnipotent and all encompassing God" and thinks of Veldenava as his/her missing half because he was born/created along with her.
Ivarage can't comprehend this God but she is aware of its existence and that she was part of it.
So based on her low intelligence i think she thought smt like this:

• Before:
  • Veldenava and herself = no distinction = directly part of God, can understand itself.
• After:
  • Veldenava ≠ Ivarage ≠ God, can't understand this God but knows that Veldenava was part of it too so she thinks that God "was" herself + Veldenava.
  • Also i very doubt that she thinks that God "was" only herself + Veldenava as she wants to swallow the cosmology to go back to this feeling of completeness.

 

[Gasfo]

All-encompassing's/All-One, whatever you call it, is now definitely split into two parts as Veldanava and Ivaraj. This is an important plot point and not something you can ignore. The fact that Ivaraj still talks about an All-One and Michael talks about an All-encompassing, as I said, at best means that the whole formed by Veldanava and Ivaraj is also a part of the All-encompassing.

you forget the main part reality-fiction duality doesn't exist in tensura

 

[CodeCCLL]

I interpretated it in this way:
Ivarage doesn't feel complete anymore because she isn't this "omnipotent and all encompassing God" and thinks of Veldenava as his/her missing half because he was born/created along with her.
Ivarage can't comprehend this God but she is aware of its existence and that she was part of it.
So based on her low intelligence i think she thought smt like this:

• Before:
  • Veldenava and herself = no distinction = directly part of God, can understand itself.
• After:
  • Veldenava ≠ Ivarage ≠ God, can't understand this God but knows that Veldenava was part of it too so she thinks that God "was" herself + Veldenava.
  • Also i very doubt that she thinks that God "was" only herself + Veldenava as she wants to swallow the cosmology to go back to this feeling of completeness.

I think so too.

Spoiler: Something something

I'm not very interested in philosophy, but this scenario has already happened in Transformers comics.

The One

At first, there is a singularity in harmony, then a part of this singularity is divided into two.

But there is All-encompassing/All-One for Tensura and Omniversal Matrix/The One for Transformers comics is still exist.

It seems like something like this will happen eventually.

 

[Berga14]

I think so too.

Spoiler: Something something

I'm not very interested in philosophy, but this scenario has already happened in Transformers comics.

The One

At first, there is a singularity in harmony, then a part of this singularity is divided into two.

But there is All-encompassing/All-One for Tensura and Omniversal Matrix/The One for Transformers comics is still exist.

It seems like something like this will happen eventually.

I still think that God still exist though while, to me, you seems to disagree with that

 

[CodeCCLL]

I still think that God still exist though while, to me, you seems to disagree with that

No, God still exists, that's for sure. Why do you think I think God doesn't exist?

At first, there is a All-encompassing singularity in harmony, then a part of this singularity is divided into two but All-encompassing/All-One is still exist.

 

[Berga14]

No, God still exists, that's for sure. Why do you think I think God doesn't exist?

Apparently i'm blind.

 

[Berga14]

No, God still exists, that's for sure. Why do you think I think God doesn't exist?

Oh sorry, you were more or less against them being mere avatars.
But i think it is okay as actually everything is part of God so saying that a part of it became Veldenava and Ivarage isn't really a problem as this part will still be part of the bigger whole

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

you forget the main part reality-fiction duality doesn't exist in tensura

If by that you mean qualitatively different constructs, na, they do exist
Like the real world and Diablo's imaginary world.

He is able to materialize the imaginary world where he holds the absolute authority. Once sent to that world, even life and death of the targets would be in Diablo's grip. He may even intertwin the thing happening in this imaginary world with what happens in the real world through [Reality Exchange].

To have illusions imposed by Diablo materialize to their realities---- This is how horrifying and beyond common sense this ability is. The only way to overcome its effect is through training of spiritual body so one can break through by sheer willpower.