Battle of Bums (Toji vs Sans), (Undertale vs JJK)

[Pointee]

Speed Equalized

Both are in character

Toji is paid 100,000 gold by Muffet to kill Sans (just because).

Takes place in Judgement Hall.

Neither know anything about each other

Both have standard battle equipment

Toji at 8-A, Sans at 9-A.


Sans: 1 (Anonymous_Learner)

Toji: 0

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Does Toji have preptime or no?

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Even still, with sans battle iq, timestop, reliable teleportation, and durability negation, I think he can still win this.
Put me on for sans

 

[Pointee]

Does Toji have preptime or no?

Neither no nothing about each other

 

[Catbowtie]

Toji doesn't function without prep time.

• Preparation (Has access to the Zen'in Clan's cursed tools storage. Fights more effectively when given the time to strategize against an opponent)

Sans first danmaku Ggs him, and Anonymous voted Sans, not Toji.

 

[Pointee]

Toji doesn't function without prep time.

Sans first danmaku Ggs him, and Anonymous voted Sans, not Toji.

Toji doesn't function without prep time.

Sans first danmaku Ggs him, and Anonymous voted Sans, not Toji.

My mistake, do you think this matchup is more balanced with Toji having prep time.

 

[Catbowtie]

I really think this is a mismatch if anything. Sans' starting move danmaku is crazy and his Gaster Blasters blitz Toji. Toji pretty much has no way of hitting Sans because of his nutty IA.

 

[Pointee]

I really think this is a mismatch if anything. Sans' starting move danmaku is crazy and his Gaster Blasters blitz Toji. Toji pretty much has no way of hitting Sans because of his nutty IA.

Toji has good resistance to soul manipulation, which I think would allow him to have a better chance of withstanding SAN’s attacks, as many of them use soul manipulation, including his starting move.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I really think this is a mismatch if anything. Sans' starting move danmaku is crazy and his Gaster Blasters blitz Toji. Toji pretty much has no way of hitting Sans because of his nutty IA.

Holy shit if you think Sans has good IA you are actually on some really good shit!

But yeah Sans' IA is low-tier. Good job you can dodge attacks with your eyes closed, if someone follows up he doesn't dodge shit.

As for the match, Toji either gets killed in the first second or two or lives and Sans never sees the light of day because he can't dodge something that can't even be properly sensed.

 

[Arkenis]

Toji has good resistance to soul manipulation,

No he doesn't. Toji resist soul possession. Get his soul hit is gonna destroy him or outright kill him

 

[Pointee]

Holy shit if you think Sans has good IA you are actually on some really good shit!

But yeah Sans' IA is low-tier. Good job you can dodge attacks with your eyes closed, if someone follows up he doesn't dodge shit.

As for the match, Toji either gets killed in the first second or two or lives and Sans never sees the light of day because he can't dodge something that can't even be properly sensed.

To be fair Sans is very clearly exhausted by the time he is killed by the follow up, not to mention he's fighting what believes to be an opponent who is incapable of following up (As sans is knowledgable about game mechanics, as far as he knows the player is restricted to one attack per turn), (Not to mention Frisk did not do a follow up attack during the entire fight.)

 

[Pointee]

No he doesn't. Toji resist soul possession. Get his soul hit is gonna destroy him or outright kill him

The wiki he says he resists both no?

 

[Robo432343]

resistance to soul manip does not mean resistance to soul destruction

 

[Arkenis]

The wiki he says he resists both no?

And then it explains how he resist both.

 

[Pointee]

resistance to soul manip does not mean resistance to soul destruction

Would it mean he resists the effects of the blue attacks (being slammed to walls/grounds or affected by gravity)

 

[Bernkastelll]

sans lost to sukuna

toji>sukuna

Rock Paper Scissors, rock defeats scissors but loses to paper

 

[DaReaperMan]

To be fair Sans is very clearly exhausted by the time he is killed by the follow up, not to mention he's fighting what believes to be an opponent who is incapable of following up (As sans is knowledgable about game mechanics, as far as he knows the player is restricted to one attack per turn), (Not to mention Frisk did not do a follow up attack during the entire fight.)

Cope. He or Frisk aren't Undyne or Asgore, we can't say that they canonically follow up attacks.

Sans canonically got hit by a follow-up attack with nothing he did to stop it, no muh Teleportation or anything like that.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Sans canonically got hit by a follow-up attack with nothing he did to stop it, no muh Teleportation or anything like that.

Sans got hit by a attack so fast he couldn't react, its noted in Chara's speed section, it has nothing to do with him not being able to dodge, he just couldnt react

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sans got hit by a attack so fast he couldn't react, its noted in Chara's speed section, it has nothing to do with him not being able to dodge, he just couldnt react

He literally did react but didn't dodge lol


Watch his face

 

[Catbowtie]

As for the match, Toji either gets killed in the first second or two or lives and Sans never sees the light of day because he can't dodge something that can't even be properly sensed.

Pretty much this

 

[Pointee]

Holy shit if you think Sans has good IA you are actually on some really good shit!

But yeah Sans' IA is low-tier. Good job you can dodge attacks with your eyes closed, if someone follows up he doesn't dodge shit.

As for the match, Toji either gets killed in the first second or two or lives and Sans never sees the light of day because he can't dodge something that can't even be properly sensed.

Which one do you think is more likely to happen?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Which one do you think is more likely to happen?

Stomp match is.

 

[Bernkastelll]

He literally did react

He didn't though? He reacted to our attack (the first one) but didnt react to Chara's one

 

[DaReaperMan]

He didn't though? He reacted to our attack (the first one) but didnt react to Chara's one

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309760800583585792/20241122_230123.jpg?ex=6742c14d&is=67416fcd&hm=258957576df4932fd0ed2c9f7c8779fcd7494be7e0e32edf456ce7f7afa2f8e9&
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309760800159699014/20241122_230128.jpg?ex=6742c14c&is=67416fcc&hm=5106f242eff5452506ce800b5e2bef4aba3d3c5c2d0a1ac85583133a6f597bf3&
uhuh yeah sure.

wanna know the most damning part for your argument though?
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309761249927761920/20241122_230329.jpg?ex=6742c1b8&is=67417038&hm=0fd6ff9c801e5c34114d20b0e8755c84ad90f375aabae0eafb7f9861798c7056&
HE DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY REACT. HE REACTED AND JUST DIDN'T DODGE.

 

[Bernkastelll]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309760800583585792/20241122_230123.jpg?ex=6742c14d&is=67416fcd&hm=258957576df4932fd0ed2c9f7c8779fcd7494be7e0e32edf456ce7f7afa2f8e9&
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309760800159699014/20241122_230128.jpg?ex=6742c14c&is=67416fcc&hm=5106f242eff5452506ce800b5e2bef4aba3d3c5c2d0a1ac85583133a6f597bf3&
uhuh yeah sure.

wanna know the most damning part for your argument though?
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1054518028970246174/1309761249927761920/20241122_230329.jpg?ex=6742c1b8&is=67417038&hm=0fd6ff9c801e5c34114d20b0e8755c84ad90f375aabae0eafb7f9861798c7056&
HE DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY REACT. HE REACTED AND JUST DIDN'T DODGE.

how is that reacting?

 

[DaReaperMan]

how is that reacting?

"how is your expression changing in the middle of being attacked reacting?"

Maybe because he saw le fookin' attack?! In what universe is that not reacting Bern, please, tell me!

 

[Bernkastelll]

Maybe because he saw le fookin' attack?! In what universe is that not reacting Bern, please, tell me!

thats more like getting blitzed, I mean, depend on what definition of "reacting" we are using, if a car at 60km/h suddenly appeared everyone would be surprised but it's not accurate to say that we fully reacted to the car, we just got "blitzed"

 

[DaReaperMan]

thats more like getting blitzed, I mean, depend on what definition of "reacting" we are using, if a car at 60km/h suddenly appeared everyone would be surprised but it's not accurate to say that we fully reacted to the car, we just got "blitzed"

It really ain't, especially when I'm almost certain Sans reacts in his expression in the exact same frame he starts dodging normally.

 

[Pointee]

It really ain't, especially when I'm almost certain Sans reacts in his expression in the exact same frame he starts dodging normally

I don’t think the conclusion from that is “Sans doesn’t can’t dodge follow up attacks” but rather

His dodge speed is slower because he is caught off guard by the human doing something they haven’t been doing in their last 15 attacks

His dodge speed is slower because he is tired. As the game puts it “he can’t dodge forever” and is exhausted by the end of the fight.

It’s these two factors why sans got hit here. I think you can make the argument that if frisk tried to do a follow up attack at the start of the fight, or towards the middle he would have dodged it. He’s probably going to get exhausted a lot faster when fighting somebody like Toji but I don’t think he’ll be dead the second Toji goes for a follow up attack.!

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don’t think the conclusion from that is “Sans doesn’t can’t dodge follow up attacks” but rather

His dodge speed is slower because he is caught off guard by the human doing something they haven’t been doing in their last 15 attacks

His dodge speed is slower because he is tired. As the game puts it “he can’t dodge forever” and is exhausted by the end of the fight.

It’s these two factors why sans got hit here. I think you can make the argument that if frisk tried to do a follow up attack at the start of the fight, or towards the middle he would have dodged it. He’s probably going to get exhausted a lot faster when fighting somebody like Toji but I don’t think he’ll be dead the second Toji goes for a follow up attack.!

Second factor doesn't exactly matter, he just woke up and the sign that sans is tired(sweat) isn't there when he does.

Also, IA doesn't care about being caught off-guard or not, either he doesn't have it or his dodging is pretty crappy.

 

[Catbowtie]

Chara broke game mechanics and that somehow translated to Sans either being unable to dodge/getting blitzed. Whatever weapon Frisk equips and attacks Sans with, he dodges it. This includes the Tough Glove.

The Tough Glove is a weapon item found within the first Dimensional Box the protagonist comes across in Snowdin Forest. It is also purchasable from the Snowdin Shopkeeper. Its defensive counterpart is the Manly Bandanna.


Its attack animation is merely a bunch of small fists every time the player presses the Z key, which varies between 1-4 fists. Hitting the button all four times causes one big fist to appear that damages the enemy.

Each fist can be considered an attack on its own.

 

[Pointee]

Second factor doesn't exactly matter, he just woke up and the sign that sans is tired(sweat) isn't there when he does.

Also, IA doesn't care about being caught off-guard or not, either he doesn't have it or his dodging is pretty crappy.

Sweating isn’t a tell all signifier for when he’s tired. For example, in the / attacks before his final attack he sweats but during the final attack he’s not sweating at all. I don’t think he suddenly recovered from his exhaustion, he just sometimes loses his sweat.

If you wanna be really techincal, when you touch the walls of the screen and he jerks you back he loses his sweat for a frame.

With that being said I don’t think it’s logical to assume that the like 5 seconds of sleep sans gets is enough to completely recover him from exhaustion from the fight of his life, just because he loses the sweat

 

[DaReaperMan]

Chara broke game mechanics and that somehow translated to Sans either being unable to dodge/getting blitzed. Whatever weapon Frisk equips and attacks Sans with, he dodges it. This includes the Tough Glove.

Each fist can be considered an attack on its own.

Faulty argument, using the tough glove on Sans makes it so that he's essentially dodging before any attacks are thrown-- he's not followed, using the animations.

Sweating isn’t a tell all signifier for when he’s tired. For example, in the / attacks before his final attack he sweats but during the final attack he’s not sweating at all. I don’t think he suddenly recovered from his exhaustion, he just sometimes loses his sweat.

If you wanna be really techincal, when you touch the walls of the screen and he jerks you back he loses his sweat for a frame.

With that being said I don’t think it’s logical to assume that the like 5 seconds of sleep sans gets is enough to completely recover him from exhaustion from the fight of his life, just because he loses the sweat

Stock footage my friend, Sans has a sweating wink sprite, and it wasn't used.

Also, I never said he went from 0-100, but rested for a little while is enough for the pains of exhaustion to go away to an extent, at least for me-- and even then, he still dodged once, with little effort at that, he's either got IA, or he's got an anti-feat to it directly after. pick one.

 

[Catbowtie]

Faulty argument, using the tough glove on Sans makes it so that he's essentially dodging before any attacks are thrown-- he's not followed, using the animations.

 

[Pointee]

Faulty argument, using the tough glove on Sans makes it so that he's essentially dodging before any attacks are thrown-- he's not followed, using the animations.

Stock footage my friend, Sans has a sweating wink sprite, and it wasn't used.

Also, I never said he went from 0-100, but rested for a little while is enough for the pains of exhaustion to go away to an extent, at least for me-- and even then, he still dodged once, with little effort at that, he's either got IA, or he's got an anti-feat to it directly after. pick one.

One thing I want to mention is that Chara doesn’t open with the follow up attack. Chara tells frisk during the fight that “He can’t dodge forever” and “Keep attacking”. I think this can be interspersed as Chara knowing that sans needs to be exhausted for their plan of a double attack to actually hit him. This isn’t hard evidence of IA but it does imply that Sans needs to be exhausted at some level if there is a chance in hell of him being hit.


Secondly the reason he dodged the attack while sleeping is because he was expecting it. Before he’s cut off he says “Did you really think that would work”, implying he knew frisk would try to attack him that easily. He didn’t expect Chara to break the rules of the game and attack twice in a turn hence him taking the hit.

 

[Catbowtie]

Secondly the reason he dodged the attack while sleeping is because he was expecting it. Before he’s cut off he says “Did you really think that would work”, implying he knew frisk would try to attack him that easily. He didn’t expect Chara to break the rules of the game and attack twice in a turn hence him taking the hit.

Sans is actually asleep. I really don't think it gets realer than that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

One thing I want to mention is that Chara doesn’t open with the follow up attack. Chara tells frisk during the fight that “He can’t dodge forever” and “Keep attacking”. I think this can be interspersed as Chara knowing that sans needs to be exhausted for their plan of a double attack to actually hit him. This isn’t hard evidence of IA but it does imply that Sans needs to be exhausted at some level if there is a chance in hell of him being hit.

That is a whole lot of conjecture that was never put in the game, man, that's a lot of assumptions and assumes Chara was even planning that to begin with.

Secondly the reason he dodged the attack while sleeping is because he was expecting it. Before he’s cut off he says “Did you really think that would work”, implying he knew frisk would try to attack him that easily. He didn’t expect Chara to break the rules of the game and attack twice in a turn hence him taking the hit.

My brother in Christ he didn't sleep with one eye open or some shit, he just slept