Superman and Lois Tier 6 and MFTL+ Upgrades

[Dalesean027]

Hello peeps, we're back in business as usual with the 2 episode premier of season 4 of Superman and Lois having aired on Monday giving us the spectacular conclusion of the Superman Vs Doomsday fight we left with at the end of Season 3 which is a big part of the current upgrades.

This first blog acts as the crutch of the Speed Upgrades for the verse

Superman and Lois Calc compilation

vsbattles.fandom.com

This second gives us our High 6-B upgrades as well as more MFTL support feats from the new episodes

Superman and Lois Calc compilation 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

The base characters would be upgraded to 115.512011c (MFTL) coming from the second blog from the S4 premier. Solar Charged Superman's Attack Speed with shockwaves will become either 4.8387287e+15c (MFTL+) or 1.8145232e+17c (MFTL+) depending on whether we want to go with the 5 minute lowball or the 8 seconds we see for the onscreen feat. I'd say the second is probably safest to go with here. Speed the verses AP will be upgraded to High 6-B scaling from Superman's portion of the feat performed by both himself and Doomsday which yields 325.0311 Teratons of TNT (Large Country level) Per Character.


Now someone did make a Doomsday Profile about 2 days ago without really sharing in any threads here and I wanted to bring that here to seek opinions, it does require scans and is pretty barebones needing some work to be done but nonetheless its a good base to start from hence my overhaul of it here which fixes most all of my concerns. This fight also brings a significant stamina upgrade to both Superman and now Doomsday as well as when they first fought it was night time in Smallville and entire day had passed until night time the next day over when the fight is concluded and Doomsday immediately returns to Earth with Superman's corpse

Edit: After some comments from @ByArrow it seems that the universe would be infinite in size in Superman in Lois so Superman's Solar Amped shockwaves would be infinite speed and range instead of MFTL+ as we had here

 

[Testarossa002]

Question:
Would this new rating affect characters like Kara (Supergirl)?

 

[Dalesean027]

Question:
Would this new rating affect characters like Kara (Supergirl)?

no this show isn't connected to the other arrowverse shows, it is it's own universe

 

[ByArrow]

Since the universe is infinite, shouldn't Superman's shockwave that separates universes have infinite speed?

 

[Dalesean027]

Since the universe is infinite, shouldn't Superman's shockwave that separates universes have infinite speed?

we have no evidence the universe in SM&L is infinite, its not the same verse as the arrowverse after all

 

[ByArrow]

we have no evidence the universe in SM&L is infinite, its not the same verse as the arrowverse after all

Yes, they are not in the same universe, but they are in the same multiverse. And thanks to monitor and spectre's statements, universes are size is infinite

 

[Dalesean027]

Yes, they are not in the same universe, but they are in the same multiverse. And thanks to monitor and spectre's statements, universes are infinite in size.

no like SM&L is literally not in anyway connected to the arrowverse outside of just sharing some of the same actors so we can't use any of that, it'd be cool to have infinite speed Superman but unfortunately we can't

'Superman & Lois' star and EPs say finale will 'honor' the end of the Arrowverse

'Superman & Lois' star Tyler Hoechlin and showrunners Todd Helbing and Brent Fletcher say the upcoming series finale will 'honor' the end of the Arrowverse.

ew.com

So is 'Superman & Lois' in the Arrowverse? Showrunner breaks it all down after season finale

Superman & Lois exists in no small part because fans enjoyed watching Tyler Hoechlin play the Man of Steel on Supergirl, and after enough guest spots as Kara Danvers' (Melissa Benoist) handsome, heroic cousin, it was time to give the guy his own show. Throw in Elizabeth Tulloch's Lois Lane, a...

www.syfy.com

 

[ByArrow]

no like SM&L is literally not in anyway connected to the arrowverse outside of just sharing some of the same actors so we can't use any of that, it'd be cool to have infinite speed Superman but unfortunately we can't

'Superman & Lois' star and EPs say finale will 'honor' the end of the Arrowverse

'Superman & Lois' star Tyler Hoechlin and showrunners Todd Helbing and Brent Fletcher say the upcoming series finale will 'honor' the end of the Arrowverse.

ew.com

So is 'Superman & Lois' in the Arrowverse? Showrunner breaks it all down after season finale

Superman & Lois exists in no small part because fans enjoyed watching Tyler Hoechlin play the Man of Steel on Supergirl, and after enough guest spots as Kara Danvers' (Melissa Benoist) handsome, heroic cousin, it was time to give the guy his own show. Throw in Elizabeth Tulloch's Lois Lane, a...

www.syfy.com

In the first interview he says they are not in the same Earth. That doesn't contradict what I already said. Call it Earth or universe, they are the same thing and S&L is not in Earth-Prime but in one of the post-Crisis Earth. Just like Supergirl was on Earth-38 in the beginning, it's just different universe, same multiverse.

it just felt like the best decision was to have our Superman & Lois not be on the same Earth as the Arrowverse."

In the second interview he says that they decided to be separate from the other arrowverse shows. Not that they're setting up a completely separate multiverse.

And in season 1, episode 12 and in season 2, episode 8, showed John and Natalie surviving the antimatter wave that destroyed the old multiverse and arriving in the new multiverse.

So yes, S&L is not set on Earth-Prime, but in a different universe.

 

[Dalesean027]

In the first interview he says they are not in the same Earth. That doesn't contradict what I already said. Call it Earth or universe, they are the same thing and S&L is not in Earth-Prime but in one of the post-Crisis Earth. Just like Supergirl was on Earth-38 in the beginning, it's just different universe, same multiverse.


In the second interview he says that they decided to be separate from the other arrowverse shows. Not that they're setting up a completely separate multiverse.

And in season 1, episode 12 and in season 2, episode 8, showed John and Natalie surviving the antimatter wave that destroyed the old multiverse and arriving in the new multiverse.

So yes, S&L is not set on Earth-Prime, but in a different universe.

I see it does seem to be the same exact color and effect for the crisis anti-matter waves looking at those again so it seems this could be the case as you said, that would also mean Superman's range is also upgraded to infinite with his shockwaves as well

 

[Excellence616]

Well, i agree with upgrade

 

[ByArrow]

that would also mean Superman's range is also upgraded to infinite with his shockwaves as well

Since universes are now 2-B, possibly 2-A, Superman's range with his shockwaves should be Multiversal, possible Multiversal+.

 

[Excellence616]

Since universes are now 2-B, possibly 2-A, Superman's range with his shockwaves should be Multiversal, possible Multiversal+.

Won't that somewhat affect his tier?

 

[ByArrow]

Won't that somewhat affect his tier?

Yes, it effect his tier. Since it is already accepted that universes are 2-B, possible 2-A, and Superman scales to two universes, I edited Superman's profile accordingly.

 

[Dalesean027]

In the first interview he says they are not in the same Earth. That doesn't contradict what I already said. Call it Earth or universe, they are the same thing and S&L is not in Earth-Prime but in one of the post-Crisis Earth. Just like Supergirl was on Earth-38 in the beginning, it's just different universe, same multiverse.


In the second interview he says that they decided to be separate from the other arrowverse shows. Not that they're setting up a completely separate multiverse.

And in season 1, episode 12 and in season 2, episode 8, showed John and Natalie surviving the antimatter wave that destroyed the old multiverse and arriving in the new multiverse.

So yes, S&L is not set on Earth-Prime, but in a different universe.

Since universes are now 2-B, possibly 2-A, Superman's range with his shockwaves should be Multiversal, possible Multiversal+.

Need some input here please, the OP still needs to be evaluated as well but this is also a big change that came out of no where since I'd thought SM&L was 100% entirely disconnected based on the show and what was said by the showrunners but it seems a tiny bit was canon to the Arrowverse
@Qawsedf234 @Maverick_Zero_X @Emirp sumitpo @Antvasima

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the proposals, including SM&L being in the Arrowverse multiverse (which seems to be a trend with live action DC stuff).

 

[ByArrow]

I don't think it's right to use Proxima Centauri in the MFTL+ feat. It's not said that Superman is in a different solar system, only that he's on the edge of the solar system. That's why I think the Kuiper Belt should be used.

 

[Dalesean027]

I don't think it's right to use Proxima Centauri in the MFTL+ feat. It's not said that Superman is in a different solar system, only that he's on the edge of the solar system. That's why I think the Kuiper Belt should be used.

I can make adjustments but that said all of those planets definitely aren't in our solar system so like that's why the statement seemed funny to me

 

[ByArrow]

I can make adjustments but that said all of those planets definitely aren't in our solar system so like that's why the statement seemed funny to me

I don't think these planets are planets in another solar system. There are also celestial bodies and dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt. And I think these planets are celestial bodies and planets in the Kuiper Belt.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

OP is fine it seems.

 

[Qawsedf234]

evaluated as well but this is also a big change that came out of no where since I'd thought SM&L was 100% entirely disconnected based on the show and what was said by the showrunners but it seems a tiny bit was canon to the Arrowverse

So it's part of the Arrowverse multiverse and the shockwaves would be infinite, but the feat isn't 2-B to 2-A. The 2-B to 2-A stuff is about the entirety of the universe's timestream when added together. Moment to Moment it's just Low 2-C. To get a higher rating they would need to retroactively fuse everything together so at no point where they seperated, which doesn't happen.

For speed the 12kc one is travel speed without evidence for reaction scaling, so for now only the 115c stuff would scale to their combat ratings since they were punching each other while that happened.

 

[Dalesean027]

So it's part of the Arrowverse multiverse and the shockwaves would be infinite, but the feat isn't 2-B to 2-A. The 2-B to 2-A stuff is about the entirety of the universe's timestream when added together. Moment to Moment it's just Low 2-C. To get a higher rating they would need to retroactively fuse everything together so at no point where they seperated, which doesn't happen.

For speed the 12kc one is travel speed without evidence for reaction scaling, so for now only the 115c stuff would scale to their combat ratings since they were punching each other while that happened.

I see so Superman should just go back down to 2-C then but keep the infinite speed shockwave rating I assume?

Otherwise though that's fine for the 115c

 

[Qawsedf234]

so Superman should just go back down to 2-C then but keep the infinite speed shockwave rating I assume?

In my view yes, unless the universal fusion can be proven as merging the two greater timestreams together or erasing space-time in general.

Otherwise though that's fine for the 115c

Yeah I think 115c is good. Just that the MFTL+ one, without a reaction statement like with DCEU Superman, is just travel speed at the moment.

At least SL Superman gets it while SV Superman is forever trapped at just FTL

 

[Dalesean027]

In my view yes, unless the universal fusion can be proven as merging the two greater timestreams together or erasing space-time in general

Yeah I've no qualms with this I was fine with 2-C already lol

Yeah I think 115c is good. Just that the MFTL+ one, without a reaction statement like with DCEU Superman, is just travel speed at the moment.

Frug I forgot that's how that works for the others, flight=reaction statement scaling

At least SL Superman gets it while SV Superman is forever trapped at just FTL

They have what the other lacks now, SM&L lacks smallville AP in base while Smallville lacks speed

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

For speed the 12kc one is travel speed without evidence for reaction scaling, so for now only the 115c stuff would scale to their combat ratings since they were punching each other while that happened.

I don't see why so? They make it very apparent that his flight and reaction speed are the same within outer space. If anything, there should be proof that his travel speed can grow so exponentially.

 

[Dalesean027]

Welp I've updated the calc with the Kuiper belt version so now its only 0.83c to 1.38c anyways so more in line with his lower end FTL feats in the show

Edit: I've also updated the doomsday blog so now we wait

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't see why so?

It's part of the travel speed section

If a character travels or flies very fast through a very empty terrain, in which it doesn't necessarily have to react to sudden obstacles, the speed in question is travel or flight speed, but not necessarily reaction speed. In order for it to also be reaction speed, and the speed in total hence applying to the character's combat speed, the character either must have demonstrated the ability to react to sudden obstacles while traveling at this speed, have a calculation made that supports the character having corresponding reaction speed/time or otherwise demonstrate having comparable reactions.

Simply being able to stop accurately at the target destination does typically not qualify, as it can be spotted from a large distance to make preparations to stop or the character could even slow down before reaching the destination, assuming we only know the average speed with which they moved.

The typical example of such cases of travel/flight speed that doesn't necessarily scale to reactions is space travel. As space is incredibly empty there are virtually no objects one has to navigate around between destinations. Just flying in a straight line from A to B would be safe. At the same time the typical destinations, such as stars and planets, are so large that they can easily be seen from millions of kilometers away. As a result a character would only need reactions equal to a miniscule fraction of their travel speed to perform a safe and precise landing on them.

It rules have a hard "in order to" qualifier for that speed. So for it must meet one of those aspects to scale.

 

[ByAsura]

For speed the 12kc one is travel speed without evidence for reaction scaling, so for now only the 115c stuff would scale to their combat ratings since they were punching each other while that happened.

I don't really see why that one would be combat speed, either.

Relative velocity is a thing, and most of the fighting occurs in the Asteroid Belt, where they tend to stop and slow down during the battle.

 

[Dalesean027]

I don't really see why that one would be combat speed, either.

Relative velocity is a thing, and most of the fighting occurs in the Asteroid Belt, where they tend to stop and slow down during the battle.

Go look at the frame by frame before it slows down they are still exchanging blows, in fact I'll send it

 

[Dalesean027]

This is right before the the slow mo they are still seen flying at each other to attack at full speed and even after the first slow mo shot we get it picks back up and they still are carrying all of their momentum into the asteroid belt until we get to the next bit of the fight

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't say they weren't exchanging blows, I said I don't see how that means their combat speed scales.

If they move their arms 1 metre over the course of a 1 km fight, that's 1/1000th of their flight speed.

 

[Dalesean027]

I didn't say they weren't exchanging blows, I said I don't see how that means their combat speed scales.

If they move their arms 1 metre over the course of a 1 km fight, that's 1/1000th of their flight speed.

they are literally combating and reacting to each other as the travel and fight at these speeds what about this doesn't scale when they're doing all kinds of maneuvers and are reacting to each other. This isn't like they're on a vehicle or anything they are flying and fighting at the same time at MFTL speeds when have we ever decided on the wiki to say the arm movement of the fight doesn't match the speeds they're reacting to each other and flying at. this seems needlessly nitpicky in a way that we've never operated on for this kind of feat.

Simply if you're shown moving at MFTL speeds and in that feat are exchanging blows and are reacting to the other persons flight and maneuvers then there is no reason to say they don't scale, If i'm shown exchanging blows with you while flying top speed planet to planet then I'd scale to said speeds and be MFTL. I'm just really not getting the argument here, like they are reacting to each others flight and attacks in this quick instance

 

[ByAsura]

As I said, they do those more complex manoeuvres (which I'm assuming you're referring to here) after they get to the asteroid belt, at which point we see them very consistently stop and slow down during combat.

I'm being somewhat nit picky because it's very outlierish for them to have MFTL+ reactions and combat speeds when consistently faster characters in the CW have trouble with FTL to FTL+ feats.

 

[Dalesean027]

As I said, they do those more complex manoeuvres after they get to the asteroid belt, at which point we see them very consistently stop and slow down during combat.

All this means is that we are seeing their speed more relative for the actual fight scene when they are fully there but otherwise in the quick travel frame by frame Superman literally in that instant flew and circled around and rushed at Doomsday to throw the punch in the slow motion shot so this still doesn't work as he would've been maneuvering as he flew to even in that instant turn and rush back being able to perceive doomsday in his flight as he didn't slow down but to also throw the punch to even get that scene in the first place

'm being somewhat nit picky because it's very outlierish for them to have MFTL+ reactions and combat speeds when consistently faster characters in the CW have trouble with FTL+ feats.

yeah and Superman and Lois already has numerous FTL and FTL+ feats and besides this is still technically wholey disconnected from the rest of the Arrowverse outside of just being shown to be in the wider multiverse due to the anti-matter wave and the creators still have said as much with how they don't want to be tied down to what was established there before so you reading into that isn't really valid either.

 

[ByAsura]

If we're not scaling them, then I won't continue to argue with this for now.

Anyway, everything else seems perfectly fine.

 

[Dalesean027]

If we're not scaling them, then I won't continue to argue with this.

Anyway, everything else seems perfectly fine.

I am keeping the MFTL combat speed and reactions scaling, I just don't agree with your arguments here in this case but regardless thanks for the input

 

[ByArrow]

If we're not scaling them, then I won't continue to argue with this.

We are not scaling them now. But they should scale.

Characters in the Arrowverse were able to fight the evil Superman that John escaped.

 

[Dalesean027]

We are not scaling them now. But they should scale.

Characters in the Arrowverse were able to fight the evil Superman that John escaped.

uh are ya sure this is the SM&L one my guy cause like again outside of the anti-matter wave it has no crossover content and they explicitly don't want it to? Also SM&L Superman the evil one from John's world explicitly still has the bearded look in the show and the canon earth prime tie in comic so like this one is different looking.

It probably is A evil Superman but are you sure its specifically the SM&L one

 

[ByAsura]

Need some input here please, the OP still needs to be evaluated as well but this is also a big change that came out of no where since I'd thought SM&L was 100% entirely disconnected based on the show and what was said by the showrunners but it seems a tiny bit was canon to the Arrowverse

I think we should use the connected multiversal lore here. Smallville, Superman Returns and the 90s Flash series are significantly more disconnected than Superman & Lois, yet they directly tie into the cosmology of the Arrowverse.

Also, only 2-B was fully accepted.

Characters in the Arrowverse were able to fight the evil Superman that John escaped.

We'll cross that bridge later, especially since I can't really stomach Superman & Lois Season 3 and 4.

 

[ByArrow]

uh are ya sure this is the SM&L one my guy cause like again outside of the anti-matter wave it has no crossover content and they explicitly don't want it to? Also SM&L Superman the evil one from John's world explicitly still has the bearded look in the show and the canon earth prime tie in comic so like this one is different looking.

It probably is A evil Superman but are you sure its specifically the SM&L one

This Evil Superman comes from the comic book issue that is SM&L's canon.

 

[Dalesean027]

This Evil Superman comes from the comic book issue that is SM&L's canon.

oh man I DO NOT remember that ending but yeah I suppose so...

I think we should use the connected multiversal lore here. Smallville and the 90s Flash series are significantly more disconnected than Superman & Lois, yet they directly tie into the cosmology of the Arrowverse.

Also, only 2-B was fully accepted.

I see well ig after this I'll add that its retroactively canon to the arrowverse on the verse page