Kaguya in Naruto has L2C part 2

[Damagecom]

Argument for Low 2-C Classification​

1. Creation of a New Space-Time:
   • Manga Statement: The manga states: "It's the start of a new time-space. And you all will become its sacrifices" indicating that the existing space-time continuum will be completely erased and replaced with a new one.
2. Databook Confirmation:
   • Supporting Text: The databook confirms this by stating, "It hides within the power to let the world come to naught...!! Taking in all natures of chakra, it grows into an enormous mass. A huge ball of chaos that even reshapes the world!"
     • Implication: This suggests the ability not just to destroy but to reduce the current world (space-time continuum) to nothingness, erasing its existence entirely before reshaping or creating a new one.
3. Complete Existence Erasure of Time-Space:
   • Supporting Dialogue: The dialogue, "Yeah, but a lot bigger! And it's still growing! I definitely can't teleport away such a giant object with the Kamui... And even if we escape into the other dimension... if that thing gets too large, we won't be able to return to this place." further solidifies this by implying:
     • The object is growing uncontrollably, indicating that it is not merely expanding but is on the verge of consuming the entire space-time continuum.
     • The inability to escape or return if the object becomes too large suggests that it will erase the entire time-space within that dimension, leaving nothing behind and severing all connections to other dimensions.
4. Conclusion:
   • Low 2-C Classification: The ability described clearly fulfills the criteria for Low 2-C (Universe level+) because it involves the complete erasure (Existence Erasure) of the current space-time continuum, reducing it to nothingness, and potentially creating a new one. The statements and dialogue collectively support this level of power, confirming its classification.
   • Considering the final result, it still accomplishes its goal. Whether this feat is advantageous in combat or death battles is yet to be seen, so please stop downplaying Kaguya's accomplishments in a ridiculous manner.
5. I also hope that the moderators do not close this topic soon because I rarely check notifications from VS Battle Wiki

 

[Nami_Kami]

I agree with this.

I will give you more supporting evidence: When Kaguya uses Amenominaka, she doesn't just move the people to another world. Rather it's said that she moves and dislocates the worlds ( In this context it'd be in reference to the space-times, or else Earth would have been moved into a different space-time, which wasn't the case. ):

This is consistent with the manga where it's said that Kaguya's abillity was summoning dimensions/rewriting reality:

What this means is that when Kaguya used Amenominaka, she essentially moved the entire universe as well as her dimension to slap their positionings. This is the way her abillity works.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Disagree for reasons below

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

MasqueTLDF is gay​

 

[MasqueTLDF]

MasqueTLDF is gay​

My secret has been exposed

 

[Achmad76c]

I agree more with Kaguya H1A than Kaguya L2C

 

[Nami_Kami]

Let's not flood the thread.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

For now i disagree

 

[Demon_Lord18]

May he in heaven have pity on us.

1. Criação de um novo espaço-tempo:
   • Declaração do mangá: O mangá afirma: "É o início de um novo espaço-tempo. E todos vocês se tornarão seus sacrifícios", indicando que o continuum espaço-tempo existente será completamente apagado e substituído por um novo.

Friend, that's a mistranslation, only the Kanji for space is in the scan, and the dimension would need to have a universal size, something it doesn't have.

Confirmação do Databook:

• Texto de apoio: O databook confirma isso afirmando: "Ele se esconde dentro do poder de deixar o mundo dar em nada...!! Absorvendo todas as naturezas de chakra, ele cresce em uma massa enorme. Uma enorme bola de caos que até remodela o mundo!"
  • Implicação: Isso sugere a capacidade não apenas de destruir, mas de reduzir o mundo atual (continuum espaço-tempo) ao nada, apagando sua existência inteiramente antes de remodelar ou criar um novo.

World is vague, it could mean just one planet (the case of this quote), plus Naruto has many wrong translations and this could be one of them. And this scan looks fake

Complete Existence Erasure of Time-Space:

• Supporting Dialogue: The dialogue, "Yeah, but a lot bigger! And it's still growing! I definitely can't teleport away such a giant object with the Kamui... And even if we escape into the other dimension... if that thing gets too large, we won't be able to return to this place." further solidifies this by implying:
  • The object is growing uncontrollably, indicating that it is not merely expanding but is on the verge of consuming the entire space-time continuum.
  • The inability to escape or return if the object becomes too large suggests that it will erase the entire time-space within that dimension, leaving nothing behind and severing all connections to other dimensions.

No one in Naruto could survive in a place with no space, so obviously they couldn't go back there.

1. Conclusion:
   • Low 2-C Classification: The ability described clearly fulfills the criteria for Low 2-C (Universe level+) because it involves the complete erasure (Existence Erasure) of the current space-time continuum, reducing it to nothingness, and potentially creating a new one. The statements and dialogue collectively support this level of power, confirming its classification.
   • Considering the final result, it still accomplishes its goal. Whether this feat is advantageous in combat or death battles is yet to be seen, so please stop downplaying Kaguya's accomplishments in a ridiculous manner.
2. I also hope that the moderators do not close this topic soon because I rarely check notifications from VS Battle Wiki

The whole argument is being based on a mistranslation, and being a space-time is not inherently Low 2-C, since it would need to have a universal size.

 

[HelloThere1089]

1. The ETSB was only going to destroy space. It's a mistranslation.
2. Kaguya's dimension is in fact a space time (with a time axis) but that doesn't mean it is low 2C. You would need to prove it is spatially infinite i.e, its three spatial dimensions stretch out infinitely (or at least the resulting volume is infinite). In simpler terms it needs to be High 3A + one time axis/dimension.
3. Even if you do prove this, her ETSB will never scale. Only her creation will. Which you will need to prove cuz iirc there is no canon statement that she created her spacetime.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

"新たな 空間の始まりだ"

"It's the beginning of a new space."

 

[Nami_Kami]

May he in heaven have pity on us.

Friend, that's a mistranslation, only the Kanji for space is in the scan, and the dimension would need to have a universal size, something it doesn't have.

Space and time are interwined. If she'll destroy the space then by extension the time would also have to go.

World is vague, it could just mean a planet, besides Naruto has many wrong translations and this could be one of them, could you provide this scan in Japanese or say the name of the Databook? This scan looks fake.

Except the manga is talking about the space, so the databook would be referencing that as well. And it's from the 4th databook. Quite literally a translation of the scan.

No one in Naruto could survive in a place with no space, so obviously they couldn't go back there.

Okay, so the space-time would still be destroyed.

being a space-time is not inherently Low 2-C, since it would need to have a universal size.

Obito could hardly use Kamui because of how vast the spacetime was. An issue he never had in the universe. So yes, her dimension being universe-sized is implied, and nothing contradicts it. It's only to be supported by other sources.

 

[Nami_Kami]

The fact people think saying "it was gonna destroy the space" bro is a gotcha is wild.

 

[HelloThere1089]

If every time you destroy space, you also destroy time, then the tier High 3A wouldn't exist.

 

[Nami_Kami]

If every time you destroy space, you also destroy time, then the tier High 3A wouldn't exist.

The high 3A tier would still exist? Lol. It's simply having mathematically infinite power. Which can easily be granted without destroying space itself.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Space and time are interwined. If she'll destroy the space then by extension the time would also have to go.

We don't work like that on this wiki, that's why we have Universal and Universal+

Except the manga is talking about the space, so the databook would be referencing that as well. And it's from the 4th databook. Quite literally a translation of the scan.

World in the scan was hurting the planet, since the dimension is just a planet with a star

Obito could hardly use Kamui because of how vast the spacetime was. An issue he never had in the universe. So yes, her dimension being universe-sized is implied, and nothing contradicts it.

May he above all have mercy on me.
Moving between space-times is different from moving between different places on a planet.

 

[HelloThere1089]

The high 3A tier would still exist? Lol. It's simply having mathematically infinite power. Which can easily be granted without destroying space itself.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space

According to you, affecting infinite 3-D space would also affect time right? This is High 3A btw.

 

[Sus]

where is it stated that the dimension is universal in size? otherwise it wont get tier 2

 

[Demon_Lord18]

It' only supported by secondary sources if anything, such as Storm.

The game is not used on the scale, otherwise Kaguya would be 4-B instead of 5-B

 

[Nami_Kami]

We don't work like that on this wiki, that's why we have Universal and Universal+

Show me the CTR or page that says space and time are not interwitted and then I'll believe you.

That's right, the dimension is just a planet, and it's only accepted as having a star because it has a blue sky (something I disagree with).

Your personal headcanon is not something I'm interested in. Her dimension has light-sources and secondary materials show that it's not limited to a solar system.

May he above all have mercy on me.
Moving between space-times is different from moving between different places on a planet

Obito is moving to a space-time that's verbatim seperate from the main universe each time he uses Kamui, so no. It's the same thing.

.

 

[HelloThere1089]

where is it stated that the dimension is universal in size? otherwise it wont get tier 2

Nowhere in canon material. It's just a star system sized 4D construct for now.

 

[Sus]

No where in canon material. It's just a star system sized 4D construct

disagree, then
the evidence is already weak enough

 

[Nami_Kami]

According to you, affecting infinite 3-D space would also affect time right? This is High 3A btw.

Affecting ≠ destroying, for one. You can affect space even as a normal human. Destruction is infinitely above that.

Show me where in the high 3a page does it say that destroying an infinite amount of space itself qualifies for the tier.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Show me the CTR or page that says space and time are not interwitted and then I'll believe you.

3-A: Universe level​

Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, alternately create or significantly affect[note 1] a 3-D universe or a pocket dimension of comparable size, which does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time.

Low 2-C: Universe level+​

Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this being 4-dimensional spacetime continuums of universal size, but can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope.

Your personal headcanon is not something I'm interested in. Her dimension has light-sources and secondary materials show that it's not limited to a solar system.

Anything other than a planet with a star is hadcanon, literally the wiki itself thinks so.

 

[Sus]

just putting out there, the poster posts stuff then dips, bro leaves it to people to argue for him

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Obito is moving to a space-time that's verbatim seperate from the main universe each time he uses Kamui, so no. It's the same thing.

You get nothing out of it.

 

[Sus]

i dont remember kamui having a different time flow, can u send proof?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Affecting ≠ destroying, for one. You can affect space even as a normal human. Destruction is infinitely above that.

Show me where in the high 3a page does it say that destroying an infinite amount of space itself qualifies for the tier.

High Universe level​

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

 

[Sus]

destroying the universe is destroying a snapshot of a timeline, its not tier 2 at all

 

[Testarossa002]

Obito could hardly use Kamui because of how vast the spacetime was. An issue he never had in the universe. So yes, her dimension being universe-sized is implied, and nothing contradicts it

Yeah....no
He never had issues going from his personal time space to another, which is what he does on earth.
What he had issue with was moving from a strange time space to another strange time space

---

There's 0 evidence of her dimensions being universe sized from all what mentioned by the OP
Hard disagree

 

[HelloThere1089]

Affecting ≠ destroying, for one. You can affect space even as a normal human. Destruction is infinitely above that.

Show me where in the high 3a page does it say that destroying an infinite amount of space itself qualifies for the tier.

If they are intertwined then significantly affecting the space should also affect time right? (I am itching for you to say no) Significantly affecting an infinite spacetime is Low 2C.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Eh. Since the wiki's tiering system contradicts science, Imma leave it at that. It's pointless arguing about this on the wiki until it's system is changed first.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I think we need a rule to prevent more CRTs of this kind

 

[Nami_Kami]

I think we need a rule to prevent more CRTs of this kind

Eh, I won't bother anyway. It's too big and too boring.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Eh. Since the wiki's tiering system contradicts science, Imma leave it at that. It's pointless arguing about this on the wiki until it's system is changed first.

They've already tried to do this, but it was refused

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I think we need a rule to prevent more CRTs of this kind

Rule against uni Kaguya CRTs would be based and is long overdue.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Eh. Since the wiki's tiering system contradicts basic science, Imma leave it at that. Arguing this on this wiki would first require making a CTR on the tiering system itself.

I don't disagree with you there. But that's how the tiers are defined. At any mass, the spacetime would be affected. That's how gravity and time dilation work. But in fiction there are attacks that only affect space.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

They've already tried to do this, but it was refused

Tier 2 Revision: I've played too much of the Science Adventure series.

received permission from @IdiosyncraticLawyer Currently, we treat space and time as seperate entities, as shown by the space and time manipulation pages being separated, and how tier 2 works. Here's why this is massively incorrect. The Theory of Relativity, proposed by Albert Einstein in the...

vsbattles.com

 

[Nami_Kami]

Rule against uni Kaguya CRTs would be based and is long overdue.

Nah, bro is sabotaging a whole verse.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

What is the argument for saying that the dimensions are universal size? Because being 4D is not the only requirement, a universal size is needed to be Low 2-C