Lupin & Koichi vs The Hat Kid & The Empress

[Catbowtie]

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Assumptions:​

Combatants start 30 meters away from each other and not within each others line of sight
Speed Equalized
All combatants are 9-A
All combatants have their Standard Equipment
The battle's location is in a desolate, still functioning Nightclub
Otherwise, Standard Battle Assumptions​

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Combatants	Votes
Lupin III & Koichi Zenigata	@DimeUhDozen, @Shadowslash125
Hat Kid & The Empress
Inconclusive

 

[Shadowslash125]

I miss the cimafranca thumbnails already
But these aren't bad either. Following.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Lupin and Zenigata, despite having a disadvantage in AP, I would say might be a bit more skilled and Lupin’s stealth should help a ton, especially considering the location. A desolate nightclub should have lots of places for him to hide. If he can sneak up on Hat Kid or Empress, he could potentially use pressure points to knock them out or restrain them with superior LS.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Ok, so an immediate thing I noticed from looking at all the combatants profiles, what's the likelihood of the fight starting with a conversation since basically everyone here has Social Influence (Zenigata doesn't but honestly he should lol). That alone could change the flow of the fight but assuming that isn't a possibility.

Zenigata has the immediate advantage thanks to his skill and senses combined with what is effectively a long range grappler fighting style, neither Hat Kid nor Empress from what I'm seeing have any way to actually get them off if they land.

Lupin on the other hand has the advantage with far higher skill, stealth, senses, and depending on his gear (his standard equipment and optional equipment sections are supremely scuffed lol) he likely has a few ways of taking Hat Kid and Empress down without either noticing. Ranging from his smoke pellets that knock people out, his thread which can make traps, paralyzing spray, and without it he could still use things like Zenigata's handcuff which he debatably has better accuracy with, or steal some of his opponents gear to nerf them/buff himself (Does Hat Kid's gear have any traits that prevent that? I'd assume Empress' rocket launcher works regardless of the holder)

 

[DrGreyman]

I mean, Hat Kid has stealth mastery too, admittedly not to the level of Lupin but still nothing to scoff at, so she should be able to take advantage of the environment as well. Also, her normal hat shows her the way to the next point of interest in the level, she could just know where Lupin is hiding, or at least the general direction to where he is.

Funnily enough, if the battle does start with a conversation, Zenigata might just be able to get Empress to bow out of the fight since she's afraid of the police. It wouldn't matter to Hat Kid since she regularly disrespects authority but it would definitely help in the fight.

Lupin and Zenigata would probably be able to restrain Hat Kid if they caught her, but what's stopping her from using the same super evasive fighting style as the last match? The Time Stop hat (that really just slows time) and the Sprint Hat massively boosts her evasiveness and reaction speeds, so with equalized speed at the start they'd have a hard time actually pinning her down.
She's used to being outmatched in a physical sense and wouldn't just let herself get caught in a grapple if she sees that's what the others are going for.
And while they chase her around she can just use her ranged attacks to get potshots in. They do have a charge up, but a low charge only takes a moment and the beams come out instantly while the potions have a large explosion radius.
Hat Kid showed resistance to the gasses of the Alpine Flowers and can breathe in space, so she might be able to just shrug off the knockout smoke.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

She could teleport out of a grapple if she uses her Time Pieces too

 

[DimeUhDozen]

She could teleport out of a grapple if she uses her Time Pieces too

Aren’t her Time Pieces restricted?

 

[DrGreyman]

given the fact that if she has her time pieces she goes over the hax limit, yes
despite them being standard equipment, as we agreed in the main thread when putting her in

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I thought we only restricted the immortality? Weren't they also one of her wincons in her last fight

 

[DrGreyman]

No, they were entirely restricted because instant BFR and complete time stop are both over the hax limit
and the wincon in the last fight was kiting the duo around, just like this fight

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Eh, even if that's the case, Ice Hat should basically do the same thing

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I mean, Hat Kid has stealth mastery too, admittedly not to the level of Lupin but still nothing to scoff at, so she should be able to take advantage of the environment as well..

Which wouldn't be effective since both Lupin and Zenigata have better versions of it and massively outdoes them in senses, meaning they are being spotted very quickly

Also, her normal hat shows her the way to the next point of interest in the level, she could just know where Lupin is hiding, or at least the general direction to where he is.

Wasn't sure if that applied to enemies, but due to Lupin's better senses and likely better IQ in this scenario (don't know if Hat Kid's Intelligence helps outside of science, as opposed to Lupin where it applies to damn near any situation) which would result in him actively leading Hat Kid into a trap

Funnily enough, if the battle does start with a conversation, Zenigata might just be able to get Empress to bow out of the fight since she's afraid of the police. It wouldn't matter to Hat Kid since she regularly disrespects authority but it would definitely help in the fight.

If that's the case than unironically Lupin could also convince Hat Kid out too, since he'd play more into that style and easily has the money to buy em off

Lupin and Zenigata would probably be able to restrain Hat Kid if they caught her, but what's stopping her from using the same super evasive fighting style as the last match? The Time Stop hat (that really just slows time) and the Sprint Hat massively boosts her evasiveness and reaction speeds, so with equalized speed at the start they'd have a hard time actually pinning her down.

Lupin's massive skill, stealth, and prediction would prevent that, if he gets Zenigata's handcuffs he could boomerang them so that even if Hat Kid dodges it'd still land. And he has been shown to out do actual supercomputers and characters that predict his every move before. If he sees Hat Kid zooming around with the Hats he's going to bide his time for a trap and either KO with it or just steal the hats with his absurdly good thieving skill.

She's used to being outmatched in a physical sense and wouldn't just let herself get caught in a grapple if she sees that's what the others are going for.

The grapples would only come in the form of handcuffs or thread traps, which is a case of "too soon too late" since Hat Kid doesn't have the senses for the thread traps and if Zenigata's top tier accuracy with the handcuffs doesn't land, then Lupin's active BS with a stealth boomerang one would.

And while they chase her around she can just use her ranged attacks to get potshots in. They do have a charge up, but a low charge only takes a moment and the beams come out instantly while the potions have a large explosion radius.

While Zenigata would be likely to go for an active chase like that, Lupin wouldn't. He's far more of a sit back and plot type of character and is 100% in character for him to have Zenigata take on a unknown threat and then plan accordingly for it. So if anyone is getting hit by those abilities first, it's Zeni (also if Hat Kid pulls out an explosive potion Lupin is just going to shoot it for an early detonation, and possibly shoot the projectiles to have them also stop early assuming they wouldnt just devour attacks)

Hat Kid showed resistance to the gasses of the Alpine Flowers and can breathe in space, so she might be able to just shrug off the knockout smoke.

I dont think that's applicable since the Alpine Flowers are mind/corruption based instead of sleep based, and breathing in space wouldn't be resisted either since that's still breathing. Lupin and Zenigata also have outrite resistance to Sleep Manipulation but the smoke can still effect them if they aren't careful about it (at worst the smoke could be used to steal Hat Kid's gear in the confusion)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Eh, even if that's the case, Ice Hat should basically do the same thing

Don't see how it would unless it's capable of removing items physically on Hat Kid since the hand cuffs would still be on them, also how does Hat Kid swap hats, since if restrained by handcuffs it'd be rather difficult to do anything besides running..... which leaves them open to getting more handcuffs thrown to limit movement

 

[DrGreyman]

Which wouldn't be effective since both Lupin and Zenigata have better versions of it and massively outdoes them in senses, meaning they are being spotted very quickly

Fair enough

Wasn't sure if that applied to enemies, but due to Lupin's better senses and likely better IQ in this scenario (don't know if Hat Kid's Intelligence helps outside of science, as opposed to Lupin where it applies to damn near any situation) which would result in him actively leading Hat Kid into a trap

Lupin's massive skill, stealth, and prediction would prevent that, if he gets Zenigata's handcuffs he could boomerang them so that even if Hat Kid dodges it'd still land. And he has been shown to out do actual supercomputers and characters that predict his every move before.

The grapples would only come in the form of handcuffs or thread traps, which is a case of "too soon too late" since Hat Kid doesn't have the senses for the thread traps and if Zenigata's top tier accuracy with the handcuffs doesn't land, then Lupin's active BS with a stealth boomerang one would.

The thing is her evasion is more based on split-second movements than predicting stuff, and the Time Stop hat just has her moving normally while the rest of the world is in slow motion. She could just Matrix around the handcuffs Even if he boomeranged the handcuffs she could just activate the hat again and duck out of the way as it flies back, assuming it doesn't just immediately turn around the second it gets past her, boomerangs aren't homing attacks.

If that's the case than unironically Lupin could also convince Hat Kid out too, since he'd play more into that style and easily has the money to buy em off

Hat Kid moreso just does whatever she wants, unless Lupin can convince her he can help repair her ship/get her more timepieces, I don't think there will be any talking her down.

If he sees Hat Kid zooming around with the Hats he's going to bide his time for a trap and either KO with it or just steal the hats with his absurdly good thieving skill.

(at worst the smoke could be used to steal Hat Kid's gear in the confusion)

Don't see how it would unless it's capable of removing items physically on Hat Kid since the hand cuffs would still be on them, also how does Hat Kid swap hats, since if restrained by handcuffs it'd be rather difficult to do anything besides running..... which leaves them open to getting more handcuffs thro

The hats just sort of pop into and out of existence on her head whenever she switches them, she doesn't actually need to physically swap hats
Also, I'm not really sure Lupin would be able to actually use the hats if he got his hands on them, cus either they're magic only hat kid can use or they're super advanced tech on the level of her spaceship that you'd need her knowledge of science to use. they don't exactly have an instruction manual lol

I think the idea is she turns into a statue and just, sits there, unable to actually be harmed. either the handcuffs slip off or the duo get confused as to what happened and get closer, which lets her get the jump on them since she can instantly defrost

While Zenigata would be likely to go for an active chase like that, Lupin wouldn't.

Fair enough

He's far more of a sit back and plot type of character and is 100% in character for him to have Zenigata take on a unknown threat and then plan accordingly for it. So if anyone is getting hit by those abilities first, it's Zeni

Hat Kid is very good at figuring out plots and thinking on her feet in battle. yes she hasn't shown the Machiavellian levels of planning Lupin has but she has extraordinary genius for a reason, even if it's mostly book smarts.

(also if Hat Kid pulls out an explosive potion Lupin is just going to shoot it for an early detonation, and possibly shoot the projectiles to have them also stop early assuming they wouldnt just devour attacks)

Also, the potions don't arm until she throws them, and she throws them pretty hard, though she can be hurt by them if caught in the blast
The beam attacks can't be shot down, so if he peaks his head out to shoot the potions she can just blast him from across the room

thread traps

also not a real point in the battle but hat kid does have cloth manipulation, and i'm just imagining she gathers up all the threads and makes a new 'Lupin Hat' or something lol

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The thing is her evasion is more based on split-second movements than predicting stuff, and the Time Stop hat just has her moving normally while the rest of the world is in slow motion. She could just Matrix around the handcuffs Even if he boomeranged the handcuffs she could just activate the hat again and duck out of the way as it flies back, assuming it doesn't just immediately turn around the second it gets past her, boomerangs aren't homing attacks.

I ment more of the sense of 'Lupin is very used to fighting 12 steps ahead and a character moving faster than him wouldn't be that big of an issue because of it', he's unironically fought things that knew what he would do before he did. As for the boomerang thing, it's not instant but Hat Kid wouldn't have reason to assume that they would be boomeranged back at em. Also not only can Lupin ricochet bullets to hit Hat Kid with something they wouldn't expect (again, getting the equipment off is likely going to be his first move) and Zenigata is also capable of using stealth to handcuff people even as the center of attention without anyone noticing (28 seconds to 51 seconds)

Hat Kid moreso just does whatever she wants, unless Lupin can convince her he can help repair her ship/get her more timepieces, I don't think there will be any talking her down.

He does actually own a time machine that he doesn't give a shit about lol, if time stuff is brought up he could just tell her about it. But even if it doesn't work he'd be using the talking time to put himself in a favorable position since he wouldn't approach without having traps set up in-case of a surprise attack

The hats just sort of pop into and out of existence on her head whenever she switches them, she doesn't actually need to physically swap hats
Also, I'm not really sure Lupin would be able to actually use the hats if he got his hands on them, cus either they're magic only hat kid can use or they're super advanced tech on the level of her spaceship that you'd need her knowledge of science to use. they don't exactly have an instruction manual lol

Alright so she could use them while handcuffed, good to know. But Lupin does have comparable intelligence with her and while he's no magician he is familiar with magical items, and if it's science based then he'd have a much better time figuring them out due to his encyclopedic knowledge of countless subjects, him facing characters who use super advanced tech like Mamo, a being who is directly responsible for 'most historical events' and has the combined knowledge and wisdom of all geniuses, scientists and philosophers of history, other characters like Mamo (yes, 2 people have that name) who invented a time machine or solving a mystery that members of an advanced alien civilization could during thousands of years, and him also having a monocle that is capable of scanning things for information, so if given any decent amount of time it's likely that he could figure out how to activate them. If not then he'd just go for removing as many as possible to remove the threat of them.

I think the idea is she turns into a statue and just, sits there, unable to actually be harmed. either the handcuffs slip off or the duo get confused as to what happened and get closer, which lets her get the jump on them since she can instantly defrost

Lupin characters have been shown multiple times to survive being frozen alive, also Zenigata is such a paranoid man that he'd likely just start putting more handcuffs on the statue just to be sure. Also I don't think it's likely that the handcuffs would slip off since I would assume Hat Kid's entire body just freezes at once, which would include the handcuffs if they were on them right?

Hat Kid is very good at figuring out plots and thinking on her feet in battle. yes she hasn't shown the Machiavellian levels of planning Lupin has but she has extraordinary genius for a reason, even if it's mostly book smarts.

That I can understand, but Lupin is similarly exceptionally well versed in handling geniuses like that. Most of his extraordinary genius profile is just him outsmarting other people on that level so I just feel confident with saying that he's going not have massive issues outsmarting them and using traps to his advantage

Also, the potions don't arm until she throws them, and she throws them pretty hard, though she can be hurt by them if caught in the blast

Is there any visual indication for this or is it just a gameplay thing? Either way I was kinda expecting him to shoot it mid-air anyway since that's how he usually deals with grenades

The beam attacks can't be shot down, so if he peaks his head out to shoot the potions she can just blast him from across the room

Lupin can shoot things without looking at them, either through sheer skill and senses or using reflective objects to do so. Also she'd need to actually see him in order to do so which would require him to not be stealth'd up at the moment. And since they can't he likely wouldn't try it since Zenigata would've already tried that and failed

also not a real point in the battle but hat kid does have cloth manipulation, and i'm just imagining she gathers up all the threads and makes a new 'Lupin Hat' or something lol

It likely doesn't help since those threads vastly outclass her lifting strength (so no dismantling of the traps without just knowing about it prior and blasting it), that does sound incredibly cute lol. If Lupin sees that I could imagine him just leaving her a good amount of thread for 'an up-coming thief in the making'

 

[DrGreyman]

I ment more of the sense of 'Lupin is very used to fighting 12 steps ahead and a character moving faster than him wouldn't be that big of an issue because of it', he's unironically fought things that knew what he would do before he did. As for the boomerang thing, it's not instant but Hat Kid wouldn't have reason to assume that they would be boomeranged back at em. Also not only can Lupin ricochet bullets to hit Hat Kid with something they wouldn't expect (again, getting the equipment off is likely going to be his first more) and Zenigata is also capable of using stealth to handcuff people even as the center of attention without anyone noticing (28 seconds to 51 seconds)

that is extremely fair, she hasn't gone up against that level of skill before

Alright so she could use them while handcuffed, good to know. But Lupin does have comparable intelligence with her and while he's no magician he is familiar with magical items, and if it's science based then he'd have a much better time figuring them out due to his encyclopedic knowledge of countless subjects, him facing characters who use super advanced tech like Mamo, a being who is directly responsible for 'most historical events' and has the combined knowledge and wisdom of all geniuses, scientists and philosophers of history, other characters like Mamo (yes, 2 people have that name) who invented a time machine or solving a mystery that members of an advanced alien civilization could during thousands of years, and him also having a monocle that is capable of scanning things for information, so if given any decent amount of time it's likely that he could figure out how to activate them. If not then he'd just go for removing as many as possible to remove the threat of them.

That I can understand, but Lupin is similarly exceptionally well versed in handling geniuses like that. Most of his extraordinary genius profile is just him outsmarting other people on that level so I just feel confident with saying that he's going not have massive issues outsmarting them and using traps to his advantage

that is also fair, though hat kid has explicitly invented things beyond modern science, so i'd take a fair amount of time for him to decrypt it

Lupin characters have been shown multiple times to survive being frozen alive, also Zenigata is such a paranoid man that he'd likely just start putting more handcuffs on the statue just to be sure. Also I don't think it's likely that the handcuffs would slip off since I would assume Hat Kid's entire body just freezes at once, which would include the handcuffs if they were on them right?

yeah considering her clothes also freeze they'd probably freeze with her. Every new thing i learn about Zenigata just makes him sound like more of a lunatic

Is there any visual indication for this or is it just a gameplay thing? Either way I was kinda expecting him to shoot it mid-air anyway since that's how he usually deals with grenades

they flash once she throws them, and she can put them away if she changes her mind

Lupin can shoot things without looking at them, either through sheer skill and senses or using reflective objects to do so. Also she'd need to actually see him in order to do so which would require him to not be stealth'd up at the moment. And since they can't he likely wouldn't try it since Zenigata would've already tried that and failed

That is also fair

He does actually own a time machine that he doesn't give a shit about lol, if time stuff is brought up he could just tell her about it. But even if it doesn't work he'd be using the talking time to put himself in a favorable position since he wouldn't approach without having traps set up in-case of a surprise attack

It likely doesn't help since those threads vastly outclass her lifting strength (so no dismantling of the traps without just knowing about it prior and blasting it), that does sound incredibly cute lol. If Lupin sees that I could imagine him just leaving her a good amount of thread for 'an up-coming thief in the making'

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a battle where this comes up, but I think talking them down would actually be a wincon. Like I said Empress is terrified of police, to the point where she called off her manhunt for Hat Kid once two officers showed up, and Hat Kid has shown to be willing to lay down her parasol if it helps her get her timepieces back. If he says he has a time machine she'd probably be interested enough to delay the fight at least for a little while
Also i kinda want this battle to have a happy ending, since I can't really think of a way Hat Kid could get around all of Lupin's stuff

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Every new thing i learn about Zenigata just makes him sound like more of a lunatic

Yes

they flash once she throws them, and she can put them away if she changes her mind

Alright, fair enough

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a battle where this comes up, but I think talking them down would actually be a wincon. Like I said Empress is terrified of police, to the point where she called off her manhunt for Hat Kid once two officers showed up, and Hat Kid has shown to be willing to lay down her parasol if it helps her get her timepieces back. If he says he has a time machine she'd probably be interested enough to delay the fight at least for a little while
Also i kinda want this battle to have a happy ending, since I can't really think of a way Hat Kid could get around all of Lupin's stuff

Honestly, the talking route is the most likely option. Didn't expect Empress to be hilariously countered by Zenigata's job but neither him nor Lupin would be very willing to just fight a child like that without talking. The moment Lupin sees Hat Kid be anti-cop he's immediately going to like her attitude, which would lead to them getting a general understanding of each other. (Also plan on bringing it up on Lupin's next fight, since I know for a 100% fact that he's going to try it during that one)

Guess it's time for votes, Lupin and Hat kid run away from Zenigata is my vote (obviously Lupin and Zeni)

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Lupin and Zenigata via friendship FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

Let me get this straight: Lupichi at an AP disadvantage?

So what exactly is stopping Empress from one-shotting the happy holidays out of both for attacking her?

Like, straight up ignoring the kind of circular scaling upscaling for Hat Kid for a second, Empress can one-shot and no-sell hits from her, plus Empress with some frequency one-shots people who can harm Hat Kid. If her opponents are weaker then Hat Kid, Empress just straight up can't take damage and will one-shot the moment she's attacked.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We sure didn't treat AP scaling like that in this tourney I'm not salty
Lupichi's wincons are also based on SI/sleep manip/handcuffs

 

[Shadowslash125]

Because of how Empress runs from Zenigata among other things, I think it's fair to assume that Empress is going to be a non-factor at this point.

Friendship with the Lupin and Zenigata FRA.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because of how Empress runs from Zenigata among other things, I think it's fair to assume that Empress is going to be a non-factor at this point.

Friendship with the Lupin and Zenigata FRA.

Zenigata looks nothing like a cop from her universe.

Unless he's suddenly transformed into a furry, of course.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Let me get this straight: Lupichi at an AP disadvantage?

Like, straight up ignoring the kind of circular scaling upscaling for Hat Kid for a second, Empress can one-shot and no-sell hits from her, plus Empress with some frequency one-shots people who can harm Hat Kid. If her opponents are weaker then Hat Kid, Empress just straight up can't take damage and will one-shot the moment she's attacked.

I addressed it at the very beginning, Zenigata's handcuffs aren't something she can break out of (Either similar LS or outright superior) and she lacks the skill or senses to be able to avoid it assuming she doesn't just run from the fight the moment Zenigata yells he's a cop

Zenigata looks nothing like a cop from her universe.

It's under the assumption that the fight starts with characters talking when they confront each other, which is fairly likely for this group. Zenigata would be yelling this information out and be showing his badge (also if we want to be technical he's a police inspector which is higher ranked than a normal officer)

I covered both ideas for the fight with and without the SI arguments, Hat Kid is just the much bigger threat due to the ability variety since it helps avoid Zenigata and does push Lupin somewhat into planning ahead. As opposed to Empress who's only advantage is the AP which can be sidelined either by the handcuffs, one of Lupin's gadget, or Lupin simply using her own rocket launcher against her via blowing up the missiles she fires the moment the trigger is pulled or just stealing it outright.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I addressed it at the very beginning, Zenigata's handcuffs aren't something she can break out of (Either similar LS or outright superior) and she lacks the skill or senses to be able to avoid it assuming she doesn't just run from the fight the moment Zenigata yells he's a cop

Zeni's handcuffs are also lower range than Empress' Rocket Launcher. And even then, Empress never puts her wrists close enough together to get Handcuffed, so it'd only end in Zeni getting hit back, whether he cuffs her or not cause she can hit him from the same distance he can cuff her

It's under the assumption that the fight starts with characters talking when they confront each other, which is fairly likely for this group. Zenigata would be yelling this information out and be showing his badge (also if we want to be technical he's a police inspector which is higher ranked than a normal officer)

Empress talks and shoots when she's in combat, unless of course the sound of Zenigata shouting is over 180 decibels.

And at the end of the day, we don't even know if AHiT cops have badges, so Zeni would be a foreign cop Empress doesn't have to worry about eliminating, if it wasn't obvious enough by how he looks

I covered both ideas for the fight with and without the SI arguments, Hat Kid is just the much bigger threat due to the ability variety since it helps avoid Zenigata and does push Lupin somewhat into planning ahead. As opposed to Empress who's only advantage is the AP which can be sidelined either by the handcuffs, one of Lupin's gadget, or Lupin simply using her own rocket launcher against her via blowing up the missiles she fires the moment the trigger is pulled or just stealing it outright.

Empress can no-sell her rocket launcher, unless you want to argue Hat Kid is a stone wall or Empress is a glass cannon

And also, stealing it or hitting the rocket like that gets Lupin hit.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Zeni's handcuffs are also lower range than Empress' Rocket Launcher. And even then, Empress never puts her wrists close enough together to get Handcuffed, so it'd only end in Zeni getting hit back, whether he cuffs her or not cause she can hit him from the same distance he can cuff her

Battle takes place at 30 meters, indoors, and they don't start in line of sight. Zenigata is within range and can stealth his way towards them. Also he can throw multiple at once and the cuffs could just restrain her to the environment, something he does several times. alternatively he could use his finger joint handcuffs which prevents people from using their hands. Plus as stated before he can throw a cuff at people without an entire group of people, some trained guards and the person he is cuffing, without anyone noticing,

And at the end of the day, we don't even know if AHiT cops have badges, so Zeni would be a foreign cop Empress doesn't have to worry about eliminating, if it wasn't obvious enough by how he looks

I feel like that would be a standard assumption, I don't see a good argument for reasons why he wouldn't qualify as a cop in her eyes besides "He's not an animal"

Empress can no-sell her rocket launcher, unless you want to argue Hat Kid is a stone wall or Empress is a glass cannon

Don't know how that works exactly, at least by what you are saying. I assumed Empress was weaker than her rocket launcher since her physical traits are all around being able to one-shot Hat Kid with no mention of the rocket launcher being something either of these two can 'no-sell'. I just assumed weapon > physical attacks

And also, stealing it or hitting the rocket like that gets Lupin hit.

That is highly unlikely since hitting the rocket means Lupin is at ranged and would be causing it to explode away from him (from what I can tell it's the only thing she has for range) and if he steals it he's going to use it through his very high stealth, which Empress has no way to notice since Lupin can sneak past characters with MUCH better senses than her.

Even under the assumptions of no handcuffs or rocket launchers, Lupin still has his smoke to knock her out, his threads to out LS her in a different manner, or paralysis via his spray. He's far from defenseless and in the scenario where Zenigata's talk goes poorly then he's staying in stealth and using his master marksmanship and gadgets to take Empress down with her having no way of finding him. Leaving it back to Hat Kid vs Lupin

 

[DaReaperMan]

Battle takes place indoors at 30 meters, indoors, and they don't start in line of sight. Zenigata is within range and can stealth his way towards them. Also he can throw multiple at once and the cuffs could just restrain her to the environment, something he does several times. alternatively he could use his finger joint handcuffs which prevents people from using their hands. Plus as stated before he can throw a cuff at people without an entire group of people, some trained guards and the person he is cuffing, without anyone noticing,

So Empress blows up a wall or two and causes problems with that, it ain't her place and even when it is she has no problem risking trashing it in a fight

I feel like that would be a standard assumption, I don't see a good argument for reasons why he wouldn't qualify as a cop in her eyes besides "He's not an animal"

Is Zeni wearing a cop hat? No? Then he's already got exactly 0 of the equipment we knew cops around Empress' area to have. They don't even have clothes or pockets to put a badge in!

Don't know how that works exactly, at least by what you are saying. I assumed Empress was weaker than her rocket launcher since her physical traits are all around being able to one-shot Hat Kid with no mention of the rocket launcher being something either of these two can 'no-sell'. I just assumed weapon > physical attacks

I mean in part it's because Empress' profile is actually completely awful and needs a rework ASAP along with the rest of AHiT except for literally just Snatcher, but to explain it, when you hit Empress with anything, she hits back, regardless of the distance. This hit is instant kill, whether you somehow got to Empress' platform and hit her with the umbrella or shot her from across the room with the projectile badge, she can hit across that range and kill

Her rocket launcher doesn't one-shot Hat Kid, instead if deals the damage every other Boss does, which is 1 HP out of 4 Hat Kid can take.

That is highly unlikely since hitting the rocket means Lupin is at ranged and would be causing it to explode away from him (from what I can tell it's the only thing she has for range) and if he steals it he's going to use it through his very high stealth, which Empress has no way to notice since Lupin can sneak past characters with MUCH better senses than her.

Is he touching her? Yes? Then Empress would be hitting back.

Even under the assumptions of no handcuffs or rocket launchers, Lupin still has his smoke to knock her out, his threads to out LS her in a different manner, or paralysis via his spray. He's far from defenseless and in the scenario where Zenigata's talk goes poorly then he's staying in stealth and using his master marksmanship and gadgets to take Empress down with her having no way of finding him. Leaving it back to Hat Kid vs Lupin

I mean most of that requires Empress to not get literally a single hit in... she can hit through solid objects for god's sake she might as well have the enhanced senses for seeing through multiple walls to land her sodding hit or aiming her rockets through walls, but that's definitely not on her profile!

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

So Empress blows up a wall or two and causes problems with that, it ain't her place and even when it is she has no problem risking trashing it in a fight

That isn't a likely scenario since that'd require the fight to go long enough for her to go that far, which isn't likely since she'd likely be the first one targeted by both Zenigata and Lupin. They use stealth but they don't take 10 years to make actions, plus Lupin would be playing tricks making her think she's on the pursuit if necessary

Is Zeni wearing a cop hat? No? Then he's already got exactly 0 of the equipment we knew cops around Empress' area to have. They don't even have clothes or pockets to put a badge in!

We know detectives exist in this universe and it kinda just feels like a stretch to say that a character is disqualified from convincing someone he's in a job position due to simple lack of reasoning. Especially when the job has stereotypical signs of the job description and Zenigata looks like the stereotype he is.

I mean in part it's because Empress' profile is actually completely awful and needs a rework ASAP along with the rest of AHiT except for literally just Snatcher, but to explain it, when you hit Empress with anything, she hits back, regardless of the distance. This hit is instant kill, whether you somehow got to Empress' platform and hit her with the umbrella or shot her from across the room with the projectile badge, she can hit across that range and kill

I just checked a video for this, pretty sure this falls under game mechanics/outlier territory. Since she seemingly has no other means of attacking like this and it's ment to punish the player for attacking someone they aren't meant to do. Kinda also sounds like a No Limits Fallacy alongside just sounding illogical in-universe since it's just a normal claw swipe

Her rocket launcher doesn't one-shot Hat Kid, instead if deals the damage every other Boss does, which is 1 HP out of 4 Hat Kid can take.

Ya know, for a weapon that is seriously underwhelming. If that's the case then Lupin just causes the thing the blow itself up, since he'd recognize it's lack of firepower. If Hat Kid can tank it, so would he and Zenigata since there is barley a difference in the power. 0.04 vs 0.33 which is only a 1.2 difference making it a practical non-threat to the vastly more skilled fighters with the sole exception of removing terrain.... which also doesn't help much since these characters are capable of using stealth on people looking directly at them

Is he touching her? Yes? Then Empress would be hitting back.

Is he touching her? No, because both of these characters are far range and would be outside of claw distance. It's highly unlikely for either of these two to attack Empress in that mannet (Zenigata might but that's a big might). Also even if he does need to physically touch her to steal the damn thing, she wouldn't notice due to a lack of senses.

I mean most of that requires Empress to not get literally a single hit in... she can hit through solid objects for god's sake she might as well have the enhanced senses for seeing through multiple walls to land her sodding hit, but that's definitely not on her profile!

Lupin can stealth past and fool characters who not only have a much better and longer history of detecting hidden people, but also characters who can sense bloodlust and detect completely hidden people, even those who aren't even making any noise and aren't in the room.

Plus again I would argue that falls under game mechanics and if we want to argue outdated profiles than Lupin and Zenigata are also in need of desperate reworks with a BUNCH of extra stuff to be added. Hell even if that mechanic was usable it probably wouldn't be allowed in this tournament due to it being too broken of a hax (passive infinite distance auto hit attacks) so it wouldn't even be allowed for the tournament.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Can we get another opinion on this?

 

[DaReaperMan]

That isn't a likely scenario since that'd require the fight to go long enough for her to go that far, which isn't likely since she'd likely be the first one targeted by both Zenigata and Lupin. They use stealth but they don't take 10 years to make actions, plus Lupin would be playing tricks making her think she's on the pursuit if necessary



We know detectives exist in this universe and it kinda just feels like a stretch to say that a character is disqualified from convincing someone he's in a job position due to simple lack of reasoning. Especially when the job has stereotypical signs of the job description and Zenigata looks like the stereotype he is.

I just checked a video for this, pretty sure this falls under game mechanics/outlier territory. Since she seemingly has no other means of attacking like this and it's ment to punish the player for attacking someone they aren't meant to do. Kinda also sounds like a No Limits Fallacy alongside just sounding illogical in-universe since it's just a normal claw swipe

Ya know, for a weapon that is seriously underwhelming. If that's the case then Lupin just causes the thing the blow itself up, since he'd recognize it's lack of firepower. If Hat Kid can tank it, so would he and Zenigata since there is barley a difference in the power. 0.04 vs 0.33 which is only a 1.2 difference making it a practical non-threat to the vastly more skilled fighters with the sole exception of removing terrain.... which also doesn't help much since these characters are capable of using stealth on people looking directly at them



Is he touching her? No, because both of these characters are far range and would be outside of claw distance. It's highly unlikely for either of these two to attack Empress in that mannet (Zenigata might but that's a big might). Also even if he does need to physically touch her to steal the damn thing, she wouldn't notice due to a lack of senses.


Lupin can stealth past and fool characters who not only have a much better and longer history of detecting hidden people, but also characters who can sense bloodlust and detect completely hidden people, even those who aren't even making any noise and aren't in the room.

Plus again I would argue that falls under game mechanics and if we want to argue outdated profiles than Lupin and Zenigata are also in need of desperate reworks with a BUNCH of extra stuff to be added. Hell even if that mechanic was usable it probably wouldn't be allowed in this tournament due to it being too broken of a hax (passive infinite distance auto hit attacks) so it wouldn't even be allowed for the tournament.

The possibility of it being game mechanics is why it's 'Possibly' on her profile in regards to range lol

To be very real though, if three of the Four combatants are out of date or have awful profiles, and one of them needs a rework due to their profile being subpar, it's kind of my issue with using profiles I don't recognize, they're usually pretty bad unless I've gone through them like a whirlwind, like I recently did with Darksiders.

As the profiles are done right now, Lupin wins, if Empress' profile was updated before Lupin and Zeni's profiles were, she wins, and depending on what Lupin gets, it could flip again.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The possibility of it being game mechanics is why it's 'Possibly' on her profile in regards to range lol

To be very real though, if three of the Four combatants are out of date or have awful profiles, and one of them needs a rework due to their profile being subpar, it's kind of my issue with using profiles I don't recognize, they're usually pretty bad unless I've gone through them like a whirlwind, like I recently did with Darksiders.

As the profiles are done right now, Lupin wins, if Empress' profile was updated before Lupin and Zeni's profiles were, she wins, and depending on what Lupin gets, it could flip again.

If Lupin got updated not only would his standard equipment be far more better defined, but he'd be able to more consistently use things like his mind control (no bloody clue what version of it is used for his profile, he has a few), stealth good enough for someone to loose complete track of him while staring right at him, a fair amount more toon force, better 4th wall awareness, attack reflection, an absurd resistance to social influence and mind control, and probably multiple selves type 1 just to name some off the top of my head

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bumpity Bump we need votes

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[Catbowtie]

Can we get another opinion on this?

It depends on how The Empress acts when not being able to see her opponent.

Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other.

If the Empress immediately shoots her rocket launcher, then I'd see her still being in the fight since she doesn't know Koichi is a police officer. That is up until Koichi decides to say "Police! Hands up" or some equivalent. Though, I want to add

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Meaning that they'll still be fighting regardless of Koichi's police shenanigans?

 

[Catbowtie]

Probably. Not certain about it though.

 

[Shadowslash125]

It might be plausible due to the example you brought up. Upon Koichi shouting "Police! Hands Up!", he's at the very least attempting to make Empress give up in some way.

Though without this, we will have more to discuss, which is fine too I guess.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

It depends on how The Empress acts when not being able to see her opponent.


If the Empress immediately shoots her rocket launcher, then I'd see her still being in the fight since she doesn't know Koichi is a police officer. That is up until Koichi decides to say "Police! Hands up" or some equivalent. Though, I want to add

Zenigata basically yells that 24/7 in some form or manner lol.

As for the SBA, this falls under 'psychological tricks or superhuman charisma' since the characters in question have Social Influence. Though since Zenigata doesn't have it listed it can always just go down the route of Zenigata just pulling a stealth handcuff/normal handcuff on Empress.

And even then, Empress never puts her wrists close enough together to get Handcuffed, so it'd only end in Zeni getting hit back, whether he cuffs her or not cause she can hit him from the same distance he can cuff her

Also, side note, this is just outrite wrong lol. Did some research after the fact and her default pose has her hands crossed, and looking at her cutscenes I saw plenty of examples where she just has her hands near each other. Also I can't get a close look at it but while she does hold the rocket launcher with one hand, it seems like when firing it she puts her second hand on it when firing, which would also be in handcuff range.

So yeah, unless we say Empress has an infinite auto-hit counter, Zenigata shouldn't have much difficulty fighting her since he can take hits from the rocket launcher and can just stealth/maneuver around it. And even with it that would only count as a double KO at best since she has no way of actually getting out of them

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Saw that my vote wasn't counted from before, Lupin and Zenigata FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, side note, this is just outrite wrong lol. Did some research after the fact and her default pose has her hands crossed, and looking at her cutscenes I saw plenty of examples where she just has her hands near each other. Also I can't get a close look at it but while she does hold the rocket launcher with one hand, it seems like when firing it she puts her second hand on it when firing, which would also be in handcuff range.

So yeah, unless we say Empress has an infinite auto-hit counter, Zenigata shouldn't have much difficulty fighting her since he can take hits from the rocket launcher and can just stealth/maneuver around it. And even with it that would only count as a double KO at best since she has no way of actually getting out of them

You mean the one she never takes when she's in combat? Nice try buster brown but uh, ya need more then that

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

You mean the one she never takes when she's in combat? Nice try buster brown but uh, ya need more then that

You mean the same hand movements she does in cutscenes? You mean the same one she uses when firing her rocket launcher? You can't say 'She never does this' when she has numerous examples of her doing these things, including when she's using her weapon.