Wally vs Jean Pierre Manuel 0-0-0

[Robo432343]

Speed Equal
Fight is here

Wally
Jean

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Dinozxd]

Wally not only skillstomps but also has the slight advantage in AP.

By the looks of Yuto's profile, he just seems like Ippo but with worse AP, worse stamina, worse hax and worse skill.

 

[Robo432343]

Wally not only skillstomps but also has the slight advantage in AP.

By the looks of Yuto's profile, he just seems like Ippo but with worse AP, worse stamina, worse hax and worse skill.

ok i changed the match

 

[Zefra3011]

The Ap difference is too little to make any difference

Jean here has:

• higher reaction/slow motion
• higher range
• higher skill given Jean, even in his first key, was the one who was closer to reach the perfection in boxe.
• I also assume higher experience? Jean was an undefeated champions for 10 years and trained since he was little.

 

[Robo432343]

actually nvm
both have good wincons

 

[Dinozxd]

higher reaction/slow motion

can't argue with that

higher range

yup

higher skill given Jean, even in his first key, was the one who was closer to reach the perfection in boxe.

I don't really get the "perfection" you're arguing for, and the scan on his profile doesn't provide any context either.

I think Wally's best skill feats are being the Indenosian Featherweight champ after just 3 wins and being stated to be unpredictable by Ricardo Martinez, who's by far the most skilled (also has the best ANPR) boxer in the series.

I also assume higher experience? Jean was an undefeated champions for 10 years and trained since he was little.

I guess.

Now, Wally's advantages:

• Better Stamina (Jean technically has "likely Peak Human" via taking punches and not passing out, though that's not really a Peak Human feat, imo)
• More flexible
• Slightly better AP (1.5x)
• Stealth Mastery

 

[Dinozxd]

Jean mid diff FRA

damn, voting this fast without even hearing counter arguments?

 

[Robo432343]

I don't really get the "perfection" you're arguing for, and the scan on his profile doesn't provide any context either.

i think its this
complete control over his senses and his body

 

[Dinozxd]

i think its this
complete control over his senses and his body

Isn't that just Enhanced Senses or Body Control?

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't really get the "perfection" you're arguing for, and the scan on his profile doesn't provide any context either.

He was just the skillest boxer before Yu showed up, as simple as that. It means he has more skill than any world champion that ever existed.

i think its this
complete control over his senses and his body

That's when he enter yu's state, that state basically gives you an OP control over you body to the point you can controls the smallest parts increasing your technique performance by a huge amount.

• Better Stamina (Jean technically has "likely Peak Human" via taking punches and not passing out, though that's not really a Peak Human feat, imo)

that's mainly his SW which it's not really applicable in this context imo, regardless, he still scales to a "boxe champion level" stamina, it isn't low indeed but Jean has the lowest one in this match up, sure

• More flexible
• Slightly better AP (1.5x)
• Stealth Mastery

no idea how this helps, will he try hide in the ring?

 

[Dinozxd]

He was just the skillest boxer before Yu showed up, as simple as that. It means he has more skill than any world champion that ever existed.

I don't really see the "more skill than any world champ existed" tbh. That needs more context.

no idea how this helps, will he try hide in the ring?

Idk if you're refering to Stealth Mastery only but I'll explain Wally's advantages more.

Flexibility and acrobatism is pretty much Wally's thing. He can use his "Freedom" style of boxing to ultilize his op acrobatics and flexibility. The Freedom style is vastly different compared to irl boxing techniques which could catch Jean off guard.

Even that slight AP advantage would be devastating on Pierre's end as he has the lower stamina and is an out boxer whom should rely on footwork to keep his distance away from Wally,. While Wally is normally an out boxer, he can switch to in fighting via his Freedom style to pressure Jean more.

His Stealth Mastery kinda comes from his unpredictable fighting style. The first time he used it was aganist Volg (who was a past gold medalist olympican, and was currently a junior lightweight world champ) when he distracted him with his footwork and circled around him while he was distracted. Second time he used it was aganist Sendou, in which he blinded him with a fake jab and circled around him to surprise attack him.

To add, Wally also mastered Rope Control which allows him to ultilize the ring ropes to his advantage. I'm just gonna screenshot what he can do from his profile and share it here;

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't really see the "more skill than any world champ existed" tbh. That needs more context.

I mean, they quite literally say it (before Yu), that's the whole point of Jean, he refined his technique more than anyone else ever did.

Flexibility and acrobatism is pretty much Wally's thing. He can use his "Freedom" style of boxing to ultilize his op acrobatics and flexibility. The Freedom style is vastly different compared to irl boxing techniques which could catch Jean off guard.

That's literally the same thing as Ryu in The Boxer, Jean humiliated him.

Even that slight AP advantage would be devastating on Pierre's end as he has the lower stamina

Not really, it Just means the other dude is a bit stronger physically, it's a mere 1,25x or something like that lol.

and is an out boxer whom should rely on footwork to keep his distance away from Wally,.

Yeah, Jean has an higher reach to keep him at distance.

His Stealth Mastery kinda comes from his unpredictable fighting style. The first time he used it was aganist Volg (who was a past gold medalist olympican, and was currently a junior lightweight world champ) when he distracted him with his footwork and circled around him while he was distracted. Second time he used it was aganist Sendou, in which he blinded him with a fake jab and circled around him to surprise attack him.

Can't see this being useful against someone who sees you in slow motion.

To add, Wally also mastered Rope Control which allows him to ultilize the ring ropes to his advantage. I'm just gonna screenshot what he can do from his profile and share it here;

Ill take a better look at this later

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I don't see Wally getting past slow motion

He doesn't have anything to counter this, Jean would just effortlessly evade everything

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Wally's resistence to ANPR won't do anything as Jean sees him in slow motion too

 

[Dinozxd]

I mean, they quite literally say it (before Yu), that's the whole point of Jean, he refined his technique more than anyone else ever did.

That's an inverse skill feat though.

That's literally the same thing as Ryu in The Boxer, Jean humiliated him.

Humilated in terms of what? Skill? Predicting his movements? Speed?

Also, after checking his profile, i can confidentally say that Ryu and Wally aren't even similar. Ryu just does one similar thing to Wally which is attacking from unpredictable angles, but he doesn't posses Wally's level of unpredictible fighting style, doesn't posses Wally's agility and acrobatism, and doesn't posses Wally's instinctive fighting style.

Not really, it Just means the other dude is a bit stronger physically, it's a mere 1,25x or something like that lol.

I mean, Jean would still get tired faster from blocking his punches, and adding that to the fact that he already has the lower stamina is kinda bad for him.

Can't see this being useful against someone who sees you in slow motion.

Can't see something if you're too distracted on something else lol.

 

[Zefra3011]

To add, Wally also mastered Rope Control which allows him to ultilize the ring ropes to his advantage. I'm just gonna screenshot what he can do from his profile and share it here;

mmm I guess

That's an inverse skill feat though.

And?

Humilated in terms of what? Skill? Predicting his movements? Speed?

He just won the fight not allowing Ryu to do anything while massively holding back and just using one arm.

Also, after checking his profile, i can confidentally say that Ryu and Wally aren't even similar. Ryu just does one similar thing to Wally which is attacking from unpredictable angles, but he doesn't posses Wally's level of unpredictible fighting style,

Ryu can resist Siha ANPR.

doesn't posses Wally's agility and acrobatism

I can't understand why from just this

I mean, Jean would still get tired faster from blocking his punches, and adding that to the fact that he already has the lower stamina is kinda bad for him.

why would he block when he can just evade everything with his slow motion?

Can't see something if you're too distracted on something else lol.

Jean would literally see every minimal movement he will make, either he can move on his back otherwise Jean will just see anything he does

 

[Dinozxd]

And?

I don't really get what you mean by "rafined his skill more than anyone else"? Like, did he surpass all of the other dudes?

He just won the fight not allowing Ryu to do anything while massively holding back and just using one arm.

I mean again, Ryu doesn't do the same thing Wally does. Wally is a complete upgrade.

Ryu can resist Siha ANPR.

What's that?

I can't understand why from just this

Not from just that obviously.

why would he block when he can just evade everything with his slow motion?

I mean, blocking isn't something fighters use when they can't evade everything. Boxers don't evade everything as evading would require much more stamina than blocking.

How does his slow motion work exactly? From the looks of his profile, it doesn't say somerhing like "far higher Reactions", his ability section just says "entered the same realm as Yu" which isn't really quantifiable. Seeing sht in slow mo in itself isn't really quantifiable. It can be done via speed difference. If his reactions are just a slightly higher than his combat, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Jean would literally see every minimal movement he will make, either he can move on his back otherwise Jean will just see anything he does

When you focus on one place, your vision on the other places get blurry and bad. It's how the human eye works. Wally's distraction is just making his opponent focus somewhere else and dashing behind them and punching them from their blind spot.

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't really get what you mean by "rafined his skill more than anyone else"? Like, did he surpass all of the other dudes?

Yeah

I mean again, Ryu doesn't do the same thing Wally does. Wally is a complete upgrade.

can you explain further?

What's that?

Siha uses the first round to memorize various information like habits, timings... anything he can use to predict you from the second round, it's stated to work like a computer since once he gains all the data he needs he just predicts whatever you throw at him; Siha stated he couldn't read Ryu with this ANPR.

I mean, blocking isn't something fighters use when they can't evade everything. Boxers don't evade everything as evading would require much more stamina than blocking.

How does it require more stamina? but regardless Jean (like Yu) keeps dodge, he just blocked stuff when he didn't have the slow motion thing.

How does his slow motion work exactly? From the looks of his profile, it doesn't say somerhing like "far higher Reactions", his ability section just says "entered the same realm as Yu" which isn't really quantifiable. Seeing sht in slow mo in itself isn't really quantifiable. It can be done via speed difference. If his reactions are just a slightly higher than his combat, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

The profile also shows Yu seeing a punch in slow motion. Anyway, I remember you made a calc for Ippo cause he saw a punch in slow mo, kind of the same thing but both Jean and Yu see their own speed in slow motion, that's why their reaction is "higher" than their attack speed on the profile.

When you focus on one place, your vision on the other places get blurry and bad. It's how the human eye works. Wally's distraction is just making his opponent focus somewhere else and dashing behind them and punching them from their blind spot.

Good thing that state also remove blurs and makes you see everything clearly.

 

[Dinozxd]

Yeah

What are the skill levels of dudes he surpassed?

can you explain further?

Wally could catch Ricardo off guard a few times, who's pretty much shown to be the perfect boxer in the verse.

Siha uses the first round to memorize various information like habits, timings... anything he can use to predict you from the second round, it's stated to work like a computer since once he gains all the data he needs he just predicts whatever you throw at him; Siha stated he couldn't read Ryu with this ANPR.

Can I see some scans? I couldn't see anything regarding this in Jean's profile.

How does it require more stamina? but regardless Jean (like Yu) keeps dodge, he just blocked stuff when he didn't have the slow motion thing.

Moving your head mostly requires more stamina than.... just keeping your arms tight.

The profile also shows Yu seeing a punch in slow motion. Anyway, I remember you made a calc for Ippo cause he saw a punch in slow mo, kind of the same thing but both Jean and Yu see their own speed in slow motion, that's why their reaction is "higher" than their attack speed on the profile.

I mean, if they just have "higher" reactions it doesn't really suggest any quantifiable change.

Good thing that state also remove blurs and makes you see everything clearly.

Ohhhhh. Wally's Stealth Mastery is kinda useless then. Though he still has wincons like Rope Control and Freedom style.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

What are the skill levels of dudes he surpassed?

Fabrizio, Yuto, Aaron, Viktor, Ryu, Jay, J, Steel, Josh, Siha and K's boxers

Iirc he is said to be the 2nd most skilled in the boxer 2nd only to Yu

Wally could catch Ricardo off guard a few times, who's pretty much shown to be the perfect boxer in the verse.

Jean is more skilled than Ricardo

Can I see some scans? I couldn't see anything regarding this in Jean's profile.

Go to Siha's then?

Moving your head mostly requires more stamina than.... just keeping your arms tight.

Not really, If you make small movements it will waste less

I mean, if they just have "higher" reactions it doesn't really suggest any quantifiable change.

It makes you see even your own attacks in slow motion, Which Wally doesn't get past

 

[Dinozxd]

Fabrizio, Yuto, Aaron, Viktor, Ryu, Jay, J, Steel, Josh, Siha and K's boxers

Iirc he is said to be the 2nd most skilled in the boxer 2nd only to Yu

And how skilled are these guys?

Jean is more skilled than Ricardo

.... You have anything else to add or?

Go to Siha's then?

His profile doesn't say anything about it as well.

Not really, If you make small movements it will waste less

Yk boxers already have their guard up right? Blocking only requires you to tighten up your arms, nothing else. Evading punches require sharp head movements which are more tiring.

It makes you see even your own attacks in slow motion, Which Wally doesn't get past

Like I said, seeing attacks in slow mo isn't quantifiable as long as you don't see someone much faster than you in slow mo (like a Supersonic character seeing a Hypersonic character in slow mo). Reaction speed already scales above combat speed in normal circumstances, Jean's reactions are just slightly faster.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

And how skilled are these guys?

Yuto being capable of adapting and evolving mid fight to the point he could overwhelm for a small period of time Yu

Fabrizio using psychological warefare to disorient his opponents and fights dirty too

Aaron having technique amp that could bypass Yu's slow motion and even almost winning against him

Siha and Ryu i already explained

K's boxers being world champions themselves which includes Aaron

Viktor is eh, He is luck dependent i guess

More skilled than J, Though i forgot his feats lol

.... You have anything else to add or?

Hmm

• Jean defeated armed thugs (Knives and a gun)
• Humilated Ryu with what Zefra said
• Is stated to have reached perfection i guess?
• Stated to be the 2nd most skilled character in the boxer
• Reached the same realm of Yu (Perception hax)
• Has full body mastery and can feel stuff clearly and things Zefra said
• Has PP knowledge i guess
• He can mess with the opponent's perception of timing and distance
• Has a flawless boxing career for 10 years
• Stated by K to be a genius boxer who is capable of performing boxing techniques with such precision that Yu is the only one who could replicate him
• After going through his evolution, Jean was stated to have seemingly "reached perfection", gaining complete control over his senses and his body
• After his evolution, Jean gained such control over his own senses that he was able to temporarily predict Yu's movements through things such as the angle of his foot, the tightening of his calf, his gaze, and the tension in his waist. Stated by K to possess "full control over his body"

His profile doesn't say anything about it as well.

Here and here

Yk boxers already have their guard up right? Blocking only requires you to tighten up your arms, nothing else. Evading punches require sharp head movements which are more tiring.

Jean will be seeing him in slow motion, All he has to do is just make his head go slightly to the left/right

Like I said, seeing attacks in slow mo isn't quantifiable as long as you don't see someone much faster than you in slow mo (like a Supersonic character seeing a Hypersonic character in slow mo). Reaction speed already scales above combat speed in normal circumstances, Jean's reactions are just slightly faster.

Speed is equal here, Meaning, Jean will see him and Wally in slow motion, You can't downgrade this, It's on his profile, It says "Perception Manipulation" and higher reaction speed too

 

[Zefra3011]

What are the skill levels of dudes he surpassed?

I meant it in a more general way regardless I can give a good feat skill wise.

Firstly I want to point out that technique in The Boxer works like IRL where the better you execute a technique the higher the force and speed you produce are.

So as you know he reached Yu's state, when they explain that state they say it make the perfection of technique possible because by having a full control over your entire body you are capable of moving it in perfect synchrony. Jean when he entered in this state was able to pull out a technique that allowed him to increasing his speed abnormaly, as we saw above since technique works like IRL so by improving it you improve your performance therefore Jean being able to pull out that speed thanks to that state means his "technique multiplier" far exceeded the human limit which means his technique is above anything a boxer is capable of performing. Just to add context for you, Yu was able to prove himself superior just because he was even higher in this state.

So Jean's skill/technique is vastly superior than anything a normal technique can do.


He is even described to be a boxer that is able to pull out the best decision in each situation.

Wally could catch Ricardo off guard a few times, who's pretty much shown to be the perfect boxer in the verse.

eh, "perfect boxer" means he is top 1? Regardless even Siha is stated to be a genius and has feats above any IRL boxer and he is way below Jean, so I need more context here.

Can I see some scans? I couldn't see anything regarding this in Jean's profile.

here and here too

He can even read your blood flow and heart beats.

Siha couldn't read Ryu.

Jean without the state > Ryu (of course Jean in the state > Jean without it)

Moving your head mostly requires more stamina than.... just keeping your arms tight.

one requires energy while the other the capacity to endure, there isn't much difference, if they dodge it means it's the best action for them.

I mean, if they just have "higher" reactions it doesn't really suggest any quantifiable change.

Nah, they literally make it clear it's not an higher reaction but an outright perceiving time differently.

To give you a scale of the power when K was a soldier and entered this state he could perceive bullets as frozen in time. which means that while he was peak human speed he could perceive supersonic bullets as frozen in time.

Yu for example is able to react to a technique that is a blitz higher than his normal punching speed.

Jean would literally see any minimal movement the opponent will move.

Though he still has wincons like Rope Control and Freedom style.

can you show the scans of them? the descriptions weren't much helpful, sorry

 

[Robo432343]

guys wally might be getting scaled to 8207178.825 joules

 

[Dinozxd]

Yuto being capable of adapting and evolving mid fight to the point he could overwhelm for a small period of time Yu

Yuto's profile just says that everytime he gets up, he gets slightly stronger. Nothing about skill. Plus his profile makes it clear that he lacks skill for the most part.

Fabrizio using psychological warefare to disorient his opponents and fights dirty too

This isn't bad, though Jean's profile doesn't state that he uses something like this at all.

Aaron having technique amp that could bypass Yu's slow motion and even almost winning against him

Amping stats are considered skill now?

K's boxers being world champions themselves which includes Aaron

Wally could toy with a world champ above his weight class and became the national champ at his 3rd or 4th match.

Even Miyata at the start of his career could beat the best Thai boxer, who got his technique copied by Wally.

Jean defeated armed thugs (Knives and a gun)

How does this mean he's better than Wally?

Humilated Ryu with what Zefra said

Okay.

• Stated to be the 2nd most skilled character in the boxer
• Reached the same realm of Yu (Perception hax)
• Has full body mastery and can feel stuff clearly and things Zefra said
• Has PP knowledge i guess
• He can mess with the opponent's perception of timing and distance
• Has a flawless boxing career for 10 years
• Stated by K to be a genius boxer who is capable of performing boxing techniques with such precision that Yu is the only one who could replicate him
• After going through his evolution, Jean was stated to have seemingly "reached perfection", gaining complete control over his senses and his body
• After his evolution, Jean gained such control over his own senses that he was able to temporarily predict Yu's movements through things such as the angle of his foot, the tightening of his calf, his gaze, and the tension in his waist. Stated by K to possess "full control over his body"

These are already stuff I read from his profile and stuff Zefra told me.

Here and here

Hmm

Jean will be seeing him in slow motion, All he has to do is just make his head go slightly to the left/right

Reaction speed doesn't negate stamina consumption.

Speed is equal here, Meaning, Jean will see him and Wally in slow motion, You can't downgrade this, It's on his profile, It says "Perception Manipulation" and higher reaction speed too

I'm not "downgrading" it. Slow Motion doesn't work like yall are saying. If he sees his normal movements in slow mo, then his slow mo pretty much doesn't do shit. If you see stuff 4x slower but also move 4x slower, you're just going at normal speed. Likewise, If you see stuff 4x faster but also move 4x faster, that also doesn't change shit.

 

[Arceus0x]

Just gonna say, Siha was compared to a computer in just how good he was at calculating people's moves. Ryu gave him a beating so bad he still remembered it for a while. Ryu uses a free style that is wild and unpredictable. Jean without his state, casually ROFLstomped him with one hand. So Jean is >>> a genius compared to a literal computer.

 

[Dinozxd]

guys wally might be getting scaled to 8207178.825 joules

It's not accepted yet so....

Firstly I want to point out that technique in The Boxer works like IRL where the better you execute a technique the higher the force and speed you produce are.

Hm

So as you know he reached Yu's state, when they explain that state they say it make the perfection of technique possible because by having a full control over your entire body you are capable of moving it in perfect synchrony. Jean when he entered in this state was able to pull out a technique that allowed him to increasing his speed abnormaly

Neat.

as we saw above since technique works like IRL so by improving it you improve your performance therefore Jean being able to pull out that speed thanks to that state means his "technique multiplier" far exceeded the human limit which means his technique is above anything a boxer is capable of performing. Just to add context for you, Yu was able to prove himself superior just because he was even higher in this state.

So Jean's skill/technique is vastly superior than anything a normal technique can do.

This is cool and all, though Ippo techniques aren't "normal techniques" as well. Wally's fighting style as a whole isn't.

He is even described to be a boxer that is able to pull out the best decision in each situation.

He has a good decision making ability. Neat...

Is that supposed to be an otherwordly skill feat? Cuz shoulder rolling a punch and countering ur enemy isn't really otherwordly.

eh, "perfect boxer" means he is top 1? Regardless even Siha is stated to be a genius and has feats above any IRL boxer and he is way below Jean, so I need more context here.

Even Miyata (who's much below Ricardo) has been stated to be a genius many times. Takamura, who's even more skilled than Miyata stated that his "the natural boxing talent that Ricardo possesses is immeasurable and otherworldly."
He beat Ippo, who was the Japanese Featherweight champ at that time, casually and only using his left jab. He beat Eiji Datte at his prime (who's more skilled than any Japanese boxer even while he was out of his prime) at the second round and literally traumatized him lol.

here and here too

He can even read your blood flow and heart beats.

Siha couldn't read Ryu.

Jean without the state > Ryu (of course Jean in the state > Jean without it)

Hmmmmmmmm

Nah, they literally make it clear it's not an higher reaction but an outright perceiving time differently.

So it's more like a hax ability then?

To give you a scale of the power when K was a soldier and entered this state he could perceive bullets as frozen in time. which means that while he was peak human speed he could perceive supersonic bullets as frozen in time.

Wasn't this feat overruled as an outlier?

can you show the scans of them? the descriptions weren't much helpful, sorry

I mean, It's not anything that special but it requires the user to have outstanding acrobatic capabilities to pull off. Wally can change his momentum by grabbing the ropes to catch his opponents off guard and can also lean aganist them to extend the range of his "sway".

Wally uses his "Corner Work" only when he gets chased to the corner by an in fighter, though Jean wouldn't do that.

 

[Zefra3011]

This is cool and all, though Ippo techniques aren't "normal techniques" as well. Wally's fighting style as a whole isn't.

My point is that anything Jean can pull out is vastly above peak level.

Is that supposed to be an otherwordly skill feat?

Its a good feat being able to pull out the best decisions

Even Miyata (who's much below Ricardo) has been stated to be a genius many times. Takamura, who's even more skilled than Miyata stated that his "the natural boxing talent that Ricardo possesses is immeasurable and otherworldly."
He beat Ippo, who was the Japanese Featherweight champ at that time, casually and only using his left jab. He beat Eiji Datte at his prime (who's more skilled than any Japanese boxer even while he was out of his prime) at the second round and literally traumatized him lol.

I see

So it's more like a hax ability then?

Yeah, the idea is like that 1 second for you is 1 minute for them.

Wasn't this feat overruled as an outlier?

Nah, I Just made an horrible calc the First time. Anyway I Just sent it to show that the slow motion is vastly above their Speed.

I mean, It's not anything that special but it requires the user to have outstanding acrobatic capabilities to pull off. Wally can change his momentum by grabbing the ropes to catch his opponents off guard and can also lean aganist them to extend the range of his "sway".

Wally uses his "Corner Work" only when he gets chased to the corner by an in fighter, though Jean wouldn't do that.

I see


For now I'm voting for Jean, nothing about Wally makes me think he is above Siha or Ryu honestly.

 

[Dinozxd]

I'm voting for Wally for the reasons I have stated above.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Voting Jean FRA

 

[Arceus0x]

Jean FRA

 

[Cimafranca133]

Jean FRA

 

[Robo432343]

if that calc gets accepted Wally will have a 54x AP advantage

 

[Arceus0x]

if that calc gets accepted Wally will have a 54x AP advantage

yeah that would make it a stomp

 

[Zefra3011]

if that calc gets accepted Wally will have a 54x AP advantage

Can you send the calc?

 

[Robo432343]

The calc just got approved
It was a good fight guys

 

[Robo432343]

Can you send the calc?

Ok

 

[Robo432343]

Hajime no Ippo Calc: Bear Attack

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