Question about the new tier system

[Livinmeme]

I have read about the new tier system and it just feels...Wrong...Like. It is said that Cardinals are High 1-B now (which is stupid), and True R>F gets wanked upgraded to Tier 0 (which is even worse), this somehow also includes inaccesibles (even saying that aleph and innacessible are in the same realm which....Saying that to any professional would get you laughed), but the major problem is...The R>F upgrade and inaccesibles cardinals operate on the same dilema, no matter how many "things" you stack, you will NEVER be able to ascend to a set. And as an example, it is said that no matter how many "fiction" you stack, you will never be able to reach "reality", but the same goes with innaccesible, down to the very principle, AND to make it worse, THEY LITERALLY USE THE SAME TERMINOLOGY OF SET THEORY. They are basically saying that "uh...Actually, inaccesibles aren't inaccesibles, that is why they aren't tier High 1-A, which is just acting contrarian to a "science" that has been going for Century, and you know that if you ask to a professional...WELP..UH..It wouldn't end well, and in the same theme So.....Yes..If someone has a professional to explain at detail, then contact it..Please

 

[Blaze167]

I would love to reply to this, but I'm way to busy bro. But let me tell you this, you got all this shit wrong. This post doesn't even make sense, go back and read the threads for Ultima's proposal.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I have read about the new tier system and it just feels...Wrong...Like. It is said that Cardinals are High 1-B now (which is stupid).

It's actually Low 1-A for high mathematical concepts, and there will be a new tier between High 1-B and Low 1-A called High 1-B+ to handle stuff in the middle ground.

True R>F gets wanked upgraded to Tier 0 (which is even worse)

No, it gets you to 1-A. Plus outside of 1-A+ and High 1-A, a new High 1-A+ is going to be made I believe. The only change to Tier 0, is that now it's more of a philosophical tier.

The R>F upgrade and inaccesibles cardinals operate on the same dilema, no matter how many "things" you stack, you will NEVER be able to ascend to a set. And as an example, it is said that no matter how many "fiction" you stack, you will never be able to reach "reality", but the same goes with innaccesible, down to the very principle, AND to make it worse, THEY LITERALLY USE THE SAME TERMINOLOGY OF SET THEORY.

There is an inherent difference. No matter how many dimensions are stacked, lower dimensions still matter to higher dimensions. If Star Wars was removed from the world, our physical reality would not change, it's fiction, and besides the interest we invest in it, it has no true influence over the universe. On the other hand, if we removed the second dimension from the world, our understanding of everything would fall apart, and we would be the new 2nd Dimension.

The simple fact is Alephs and Inaccessible Cardinals use what is below them to exalt themselves. If the number '1' did not exist, there would be no number '2', likewise if Aleph-1 did not exist, there would be no Aleph-3, if there was no lower Inaccessible Cardinal to help define the next higher Inaccessible Cardinal, it simply wouldn't exist.

All math is built onto something else as a foundation, however, a higher reality does not require the foundation of fiction to exist, it simply is unreachable superior, it's in its nature.

 

[Livinmeme]

T

There is an inherent difference. No matter how many dimensions are stacked, lower dimensions still matter to higher dimensions. If Star Wars was removed from the world, our physical reality would not change, it's fiction, and besides the interest we invest in it, it has no true influence over the universe. On the other hand, if we removed the second dimension from the world, our understanding of everything would fall apart, and we would be the new 2nd Dimension.

The problem is acting like the protrayal of R>F in fiction follows the same rules at real world does, not only well..It is fiction, you can insert as many thing as it is, but at the end of the day, they are representations of real life, saying that Fiction R>F follows the same logic as reality is ignoring that well..At the end of the day is still fiction, you can trascend as much as you want but still is fiction, nothing more than ink on paper

The simple fact is Alephs and Inaccessible Cardinals use what is below them to exalt themselves. If the number '1' did not exist, there would be no number '2', likewise if Aleph-1 did not exist, there would be no Aleph-3, if there was no lower Inaccessible Cardinal to help define the next higher Inaccessible Cardinal, it simply wouldn't exist.

All math is built onto something else as a foundation, however, a higher reality does not require the foundation of fiction to exist, it simply is unreachable superior, it's in its nature.

...You know that the same goes to your logic right? Let say that Reality 1 is tracended by reality 2, if reality 1 didn't exist, then reality 2 wouldn't have anything to trascend over, there needs to be a fundation for reality 2 to get a new tier, you CAN'T trascend fiction if there is no fiction to begin with, so in all reality, **** it, You can even argue that it follows the same principes
F1
R:2
R>F
2>1
If there is no fiction, then reality can't trascend over it, there needs to be a fundation, the same follows for EVERYTHING, how can you be tier 0 if there is nothing to be superior to? Every single tier 0 is...Well tier 0 because it is superior to something, Azzie is tier 0 because He exists on a void that trascends the ultimate gods, without the ultimate gods azzie and their fundations of strenght, then azzie would just be a uknown jobber of no strenght, you are basically saying that R>F doesn't needs feats to operate. So in all reality It would just be a void
The only difference that I could think off, is that mathematics needs something to trascend otherwise it can't exist, R>F weird models doesn't need F to exist, but R wouldn't get a bump in power due to trascending it, so it would be basically the same...Eh
TLDR: R>F is literally the textbook example of "building onto something else as a fundation", every single ******* verse does it, saying that it doesn't would be the same as saying that it is featless

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The problem is acting like the protrayal of R>F in fiction follows the same rules at real world does, not only well..It is fiction, you can insert as many thing as it is, but at the end of the day, they are representations of real life

This is why the rules about which R > F differences qualify for 1-A are strict and have to specifically follow the same rules real life does, if not it will be treated as it always has been.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is why the rules about which R > F differences qualify for 1-A are strict and have to specifically follow the same rules real life does, if not it will be treated as it always has been.

No, there is inherent difference that can't be protrayed on fiction, at the end of the day, it still fiction, you can say that thundermdick trascended everything and everyone, but that wouldn't mean that thundermdick exists in the REAL world, it still fiction. And that would mean that trascending fiction in a "true" way, would give the fiction...All of the mathematic behind it....Which would be absurd, and the only verse that I can think that happens is....

Spoiler

SRE and WOD.....And SCP, but that thing is fan fiction

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

...You know that the same goes to your logic right? Let say that Reality 1 is tracended by reality 2, if reality 1 didn't exist, then reality 2 wouldn't have anything to trascend over, there needs to be a fundation for reality 2 to get a new tier, you CAN'T trascend fiction if there is no fiction to begin with, so in all reality, **** it, You can even argue that it follows the same principes

That is because it does not need transcendence. You say that Reality Two needs to transcend Reality One, but that is not the case. Why would Reality Two need to be above something that is non-existent to it, that's like us saying we're only real because we created stories. Do you think if all fiction vanished, the universe would suddenly become less real? Despite the fact that we're born more real than fiction before fiction even existed?

If there is no fiction, then reality can't trascend over it, there needs to be a fundation, the same follows for EVERYTHING, how can you be tier 0 if there is nothing to be superior to? Every single tier 0 is...Well tier 0 because it is superior to something, Azzie is tier 0 because He exists on a void that trascends the ultimate gods, without the ultimate gods azzie and their fundations of strenght, then azzie would just be a uknown jobber of no strenght, you are basically saying that R>F doesn't needs feats to operate. So in all reality It would just be a void

That's false, technically the moment a being is said to be Omnipotent, the need for any foundation disappears. Omnipotence is the end all, be all, it needs no foundation, no logic, and no ground rules. Hell, Tier 0 used to simply mean Omnipotence if I'm not mistaken.

Like I said before, we do not need stories, we're inherently above them, before and after their existence, they are nothing to us, we do not transcend nothingness, we are just above it, naturally. Just like how elephants are bigger than humans. Whether humans exist or not is irrelevant, elephants are still big.

The only difference that I could think off, is that mathematics needs something to trascend otherwise it can't exist, R>F weird models doesn't need F to exist, but R wouldn't get a bump in power due to trascending it, so it would be basically the same.

Which we acknowledge. When the Main Universe exists in a R > F Hierarchy and the story takes place in the 645th Layer, we say that reality is the Baseline and slap Low 2-C onto it. Now is it really the baseline? Probably not, no, however, the story mainly takes place there, so we equate it to the baseline.

TLDR: R>F is literally the text book example of "building onto something else as a fundation", every single ******* verse does it, saying that it doesn't would be the same as saying that it is featless

R > F is the example of something existing, that's it. Reality exists, fiction does not exist, when fiction does exist, it is below reality. Not because reality transcends it, but because fiction is a lesser by-product of reality.

 

[Livinmeme]

That's false, technically the moment a being is said to be Omnipotent, the need for any foundation disappears. Omnipotence is the end all, be all, it needs no foundation, no logic, and no ground rules. Hell, Tier 0 used to simply mean Omnipotence if I'm not mistaken.

Keyword used, and checking ommipotent use on the wiki....Uh.. I mean cmon

Spoiler: Large infodump

Why we avoid using the term​

Despite the many theological and philosophical perspectives regarding omnipotence and its paradoxes, the term is something that is completely impossible to prove or demonstrate on any conceivable level.

By its very definition, it is something that cannot be used to measure a character, and claims of omnipotence, no matter how complex or developed, should never be viewed as evidence.

In addition, our system is built on hierarchies, with tier 0 defined as possessing absolute transcendence above all other beings within the system, but raw power and stature do not necessarily carry over to the complete versatility of omnipotence.

Thus, within this Wiki even characters with the highest Tier 0 ranking do not have the term listed among their powers and abilities.

Like I said before, we do not need stories, we're inherently above them, before and after their existence, they are nothing to us, we do not transcend nothingness, we are just above it, naturally. Just like how elephants are bigger than humans. Whether humans exist or not is irrelevant, elephants are still big.

You need proof in fiction that there are stories that you trascend, othwerise everysingle verse is tier 0, because they trascend unspoken fiction. I mean, good luck trying getting DBZ into tier 0, because by your logic, they just are above it, the things that aren't mentioned. The mechanics of fictional R>F on fiction, and in reality are totally diferent, stop trying to aply them 1:1. To explain it in easier terms, we exist above fiction because it is just a bunch of ideas we follow, in fiction YOU need to be stated you trascend SOMETHING, otherwise every single verse is tier 0. In fiction there needs to be something as a fundation, in reality we know that we trascend it because we acknowledge those are ideas

Which we acknowledge. When the Main Universe exists in a R > F Hierarchy and the story takes place in the 645th Layer, we say that reality is the Baseline and slap Low 2-C onto it. Now is it really the baseline? Probably not, no, however, the story mainly takes place there, so we equate it to the baseline.

You need proofs for R>F to work (otherwise every single verse is tier 0, like I said previously), that is called a fundation "an underlying basis or principle.". The underlying basis in R>F fictional cases is the statement, and the fact that there is F to trascend. Trying to say that fiction trascendence and reality trascendence operate on the same logic would be unironically delusional, because by that logic they follow the same rules...So Why hasn't thundermcock transcend His fictional piece so hard, it reached this world?

R > F is the example of something existing, that's it. Reality exists, fiction does not exist, when fiction does exist, it is below reality. Not because reality transcends it, but because fiction is a lesser by-product of reality.

More of the same argument. That only applies on the real world, you need evidence for the fact that the fictional media trascends over His story

 

[Lewis]

Kiki

 

[Livinmeme]

Kiki

You started this thing...Anyways, I am Going to sleep, so I hope that anyone here has enough self respect to know how ganging someone, and calling it a victory because He isn't able to respond to all of the questions in a....Reasonable manner, is cowardish, disrespectfulll, and a hallow victory...Also could anyone call Cat (the user, not the animal)

 

[GarrixianXD]

The entire tiering system is based on the terminology of set theory.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Keyword used, and checking ommipotent use on the wiki....Uh.. I mean cmon

Spoiler: Large infodump

Why we avoid using the term​

Despite the many theological and philosophical perspectives regarding omnipotence and its paradoxes, the term is something that is completely impossible to prove or demonstrate on any conceivable level.

By its very definition, it is something that cannot be used to measure a character, and claims of omnipotence, no matter how complex or developed, should never be viewed as evidence.

In addition, our system is built on hierarchies, with tier 0 defined as possessing absolute transcendence above all other beings within the system, but raw power and stature do not necessarily carry over to the complete versatility of omnipotence.

Thus, within this Wiki even characters with the highest Tier 0 ranking do not have the term listed among their powers and abilities.

This is why Ultima is reworking Tier 0 to include Omnipotence statements, but only if they philosophically fit the bill. And all this is telling me is that you didn't actually pay attention or read the Tiering Rework, and just immediately went to complain about something you had a half-baked understanding of.

You need proof in fiction that there are stories that you trascend, othwerise everysingle verse is tier 0, because they trascend unspoken fiction. I mean, good luck trying getting DBZ into tier 0, because by your logic, they just are above it, the things that aren't mentioned. The mechanics of fictional R>F on fiction, and in reality are totally diferent, stop trying to aply them 1:1. To explain it in easier terms, we exist above fiction because it is just a bunch of ideas we follow, in fiction YOU need to be stated you trascend SOMETHING, otherwise every single verse is tier 0. In fiction there needs to be something as a fundation, in reality we know that we trascend it because we acknowledge those are ideas

Again, we are ENFORCING, new rules on R > F. IF the fiction's R > F differences ARE SIMILAR to the ones in reality IF THEY ARE CLOSE to 1:1, then they get a Tier Jump beyond Low 1-A, which will be the new cap of mathematics. DBZ would not become 1-A, unless it is revealed that there are higher beings, that exist within higher realities that are unreachable to the world of DBZ through lower methods and view it as fiction.

Because as I've already mentioned, time and time again, the DBZ Universe/Multiverse is considered the Baseline Reality, and anything below them in which I mean, Fiction, would be 11-C in comparison.

You need proofs for R>F to work (otherwise every single verse is tier 0, like I said previously), that is called a fundation "an underlying basis or principle.". The underlying basis in R>F fictional cases is the statement, and the fact that there is F to trascend. Trying to say that fiction trascendence and reality trascendence operate on the same logic would be unironically delusional, because by that logic they follow the same rules...So Why hasn't thundermcock transcend His fictional piece so hard, it reached this world?

Context and a foundation are two different things. To us, they intertwine because we view entire verses as fiction, but we don't judge verses from our perspective, we judge verses from within them. I won't bother responding to you're other points as I've explained in the reply above. We are equating our realities R > F Rules, and Fictions R > F Rules, as long as they are similar enough, if they aren't, then they don't get the tier jump.

More of the same argument. That only applies on the real world, you need evidence for the fact that the fictional media trascends over His story

Same as what I mentioned above.

 

[Lewis]

The summary is on page 10.
That is the entire conclusion of thread.

 

[Livinmeme]

Again, we are ENFORCING, new rules on R > F. IF the fiction's R > F differences ARE SIMILAR to the ones in reality IF THEY ARE CLOSE to 1:1, then they get a Tier Jump beyond Low 1-A, which will be the new cap of mathematics. DBZ would not become 1-A, unless it is revealed that there are higher beings, that exist within higher realities that are unreachable to the world of DBZ through lower methods and view it as fiction.

Because as I've already mentioned, time and time again, the DBZ Universe/Multiverse is considered the Baseline Reality, and anything below them in which I mean, Fiction, would be 11-C in comparison.

There are intrinsic nature that separate reality and fiction (DUH), Real world is inherently trascendent of fiction because they are just ideas that were created by us, they aren't real. In fiction you need to prove thatt there is a trascendnig happening, a reality trascending fiction, otherwise every single verse becomes tier 0 because they trascend a fictional medium, and you don't need a fundation to begin with

Context and a foundation are two different things. To us, they intertwine because we view entire verses as fiction, but we don't judge verses from our perspective, we judge verses from within them. I won't bother responding to you're other points as I've explained in the reply above. We are equating our realities R > F Rules, and Fictions R > F Rules, as long as they are similar enough, if they aren't, then they don't get the tier jump.

???? The fundation is the fictional part, you need a fundation to become tier 0, there needs to be something to trascend, otherwise is a void. ******* hell, you are basically arguing that you don't need proves to begin with, and again, you are contradicting the literal meaning of the world

an underlying basis or principle.

The basis is the transcending, and principle basically refers the fundation of a belief, the belief is that R>F gives tier 0 results. And that is not even going on how many loops there are needed so this stupid tier list works to begin with, R>F trascends mathematics, because they are inaccesible (by literally using inaccesible cardinals meaning, and changing it to be stronger than inacessible for...whatever reason), and the only reason that they are different is because you don't need any fundation, but YOU need a fundation, there is a principle to begin with, saying that you don't need a fundation is basically saying that you don't need feats. Try to explain me how R>F has no fundation, which means that there ios no truth for a behaviour, or a chain of reasoning. You are arguing that there is no chain of reasoning, saying that there can be something without a fundation is basically denying logic itself, is incoherent

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The Tier 0 revision is happening, so let's put this on hold.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You are arguing that there is no chain of reasoning

Well, they aren't arguing for the reasoning. They're explaining to you how the new system works.

To be honest, you're essentially yelling at a McDonalds cashier because they aren't stopping deforestation in the Amazon, despite them having no control or say over that happening.

And that is not even going on how many loops there are needed so this stupid tier list works to begin with,

It's not a loop. The idea proposed is that if you're R>F over a Space, you'd be able to add any higher infinite number to that space without it reaching you. High 1-A is being outside a standard R>F framework, because you're meta-transcendent over that system, with Tier 0 being some form of philosophical Monad that's beyond any framework.

that you don't need feats.

You need to qualify for the new R>F standards.

To answer your follow up point, yes, there will 100% be a case where some jokey cartoon character would Fornite dab on someone previously rated as Tier 0 or High 1-A because of the system change. The people who wanted to keep the previous system were thoroughly out-voted and were going with community concensus amongst the Admins/ Bureaucrats.

 

[Adam1396]

True. Tier 1B, 1A seems weird as a whole in general