Dungeons & Dragons: Larloch tier revision

[Vaner77]

"sigh"

When asked about who is more powerful between Vecna, Larloch, and Acererak, Ed Greenwood stated outright that the majority of Larloch's pet liches are individually more powerful than Acererak.

Furthermore, here's an excerpt from The Herald (written by Ed Greenwood) outright stating that Larloch is the top lich:

After all, the legendary Larloch, mightiest of liches, was very real, might well be interested in all the magic within Candlekeep, and could well seize upon this time of tumult to try to take it all for his own.

Larloch > his pet lich > Acererak. Got that? Great. Since Acererak is listed as "At least High 6-A, likely far higher", Larloch's tier should be changed accordingly, along with the appropriate explanation. Based on Ed's words you could go further than that and argue that Larloch scales above some incarnations of Vecna, but that's a topic actually warranting creating a thread (unlike this one).

Very clear cut, but nooooooooo, this apparently requires separate CRT. I guess J. R. R. Tolkien could've raised from the dead just to tell us that Eru Iluvatar is omnipotent, and we would still have to make a CRT to "approve" it.

Well, there you have it, a CRT. Let's hope someone stumbles upon this (because apparently tagging all potentially interested is frowned upon as well), and the changes can be implemented in a matter of days, not weeks as usual. What a joke.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Exasperated sigh at the ridiculous tone of this CRT before it has even started, followed by another sigh assuming this is intended to start trouble rather than with honest intentions

First of all, you are allowed to get staff members relevant to a verse. You aren't allowed to be a jerk, though, so bear that in mind. I've little patience for this particular brand of bullshit. Make the CRT, quit whining.

Now then.

What Ed Greenwood says is irrelevant. Even ignoring Death of the Author, Greenwood did not create Vecna or Acererak- both originate from Greyhawk, the setting written primarily by Gary Gygax. Furthermore, The Herald was written in 2014- before Acererak's new Tomb of Annihilation was written to be in Chult, and even one month before 5th Edition started. As far as I can tell, the 4th edition Tomb of Horrors module was setting agnostic- meaning it cannot be argued to belong to any particular setting.

If this were made to argue, say, Larloch's superiority over Szass Tam or another Forgotten Realms lich, I'd be with you. But at the time of writing the two were in totally different settings. As it stands, Greenwood had no authority to scale Larloch over Acererak. Not that this matters, as Larloch is already listed as High 6-A anyways. "possibly far higher" refers to Acererak's ability to ascend to godhood and choosing not to- which would make him more than a lich, further invalidating the argument. Greenwood stating his lich would beat up other D&D author's liches doesn't matter.

If you're wanting to continue discussing this, do so as an adult. Otherwise that's pretty much the whole CRT.

 

[Vaner77]

Exasperated sigh at the ridiculous tone of this CRT before it has even started, followed by another sigh assuming this is intended to start trouble rather than with honest intentions

First of all, you are allowed to get staff members relevant to a verse. You aren't allowed to be a jerk, though, so bear that in mind. I've little patience for this particular brand of bullshit. Make the CRT, quit whining.

You're right.

I've let several days of mounting frustration find its release in a very inappropriate way. I actually intended to delete the last two paragraphs a few days after publishing it, but decided against it since those potentially interested would've already seen it at this point and there would be no point trying to put myself in a better light. Gotta face the music.

Still, I shouldn't get so pissy and I apologize, particularly to @Antvasima who was just doing his job.

What Ed Greenwood says is irrelevant. Even ignoring Death of the Author, Greenwood did not create Vecna or Acererak- both originate from Greyhawk, the setting written primarily by Gary Gygax. Furthermore, The Herald was written in 2014- before Acererak's new Tomb of Annihilation was written to be in Chult, and even one month before 5th Edition started. As far as I can tell, the 4th edition Tomb of Horrors module was setting agnostic- meaning it cannot be argued to belong to any particular setting.

While it's true that Acerereak is not Ed's creation, saying that his words are irrelevant is incorrect due to one thing: Ed's words = Elminster's words. Aside from the fact that Elminster is Greenwood's blatant self-insert into the Realms, Ed has stated many times over the years (including in the tweet chain I've provided) that his knowledge of the Realms comes directly from Elminster. And while El in-universe is not omniscient, considering his age, experience, intelligence, knowledge of magic, and his status as a Chosen of Mystra, I think it's reasonable to trust his words when it comes to magic-related stuff.

So at the very least, Elminster considers Larloch and Vecna to be far above Acererak.

As for Tomb of Annihilation (which takes place in Faerun and was orchestrated by Acererak), it was released in 2017, while Ed/El's tweet comes from 2019. So at the time of this tweet, Acererak was technically a part of the Forgotten Realms. That's ignoring the fact that Acererak is known and feared through the D&D multiverse:

From D&D Tomb of Annihilation: "Acererak is a powerful lich known and feared throught the multiverse."

If this were made to argue, say, Larloch's superiority over Szass Tam or another Forgotten Realms lich, I'd be with you. But at the time of writing the two were in totally different settings. As it stands, Greenwood had no authority to scale Larloch over Acererak. Not that this matters, as Larloch is already listed as High 6-A anyways. "possibly far higher" refers to Acererak's ability to ascend to godhood and choosing not to- which would make him more than a lich, further invalidating the argument. Greenwood stating his lich would beat up other D&D author's liches doesn't matter.

I mean, Larloch's supremacy over the remaining liches of the Realms is pretty much unquestionable. Szass Tam is basically Larloch's errand boy:

The dusty corridors of Warlock’s Keep led everywhere and yet nowhere, but Szass Tam knew where he was going. Walking through seemingly solid walls, Thay’s Zulkir of Necromancy felt his body magically whisked away to deeper and darker chambers of the Keep. The lich glanced around the halls as he walked‚ noting the many traps that would have destroyed a mortal form that walked these halls.

“Larloch!” Szass called out, entering an ancient library. “I bring part of the payment that I promised you. Show yourself.”

“Ashrath,” intoned a rumbling voice some distance away. The library slowly illuminated itself in a flickering red glow, casting a fiery light across the assembled tomes. “I’ve been expecting you, Tam,” the voice intoned. “But you’re still three weeks late with payment.”

Szass Tam walked toward the sound of the voice, rounding the end of a bookshelf and strolling nonchalantly toward an ornate golden throne pushed into a corner. Larloch, the ancient lich who hailed from Netheril, sat amidst a clutter of books and braziers.

The Shadow King’s body was in stark contrast to that of Tam. While the Zulkir of Necromancy strove to maintain his human appearance, Larloch was nothing more than a collection of bones partially covered in fine garments. The Netheril lich’s bones were bright white in color, and trails of emerald energy traveled across his form. More than two dozen ioun stones circled his skull, and globes of red light gazed up at Szass Tam as he approached.

“As I expected, we ran into some Harper resistance,” Tam replied, taking a seat opposite the Shadow King. “They weren’t going to give up the mantle without a fight.”

“If they had any inkling of its power‚ they wouldn’t have given it up in death‚ either‚” Larloch grumbled. With a wave of his hand‚ the entire collection of books that lay before him scattered back to their appropriate shelf. His skeletal hand then reached toward Tam. “The mantle?” he asked.

Szass reached into a pouch and pulled from its magical confines a metal vest enveloped in a violet glow. Larloch’s red eyes shimmered briefly for a moment, determining the magic surrounding the mantle to be a form of preservation spell. He then took the vest from Szass and laid it on the table. A moment later‚ Larloch glanced up at Szass Tam. “Why are you still here‚ Tam?” questioned the ancient lich. “This part of your payment is completed.”

“The search for this ancient magic has raised my curiosity,” the Zulkir replied. “I wish to know more about what Netheril really was.”

A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing. Finally, Larloch replied.

“You are both vain and impetuous,” the Shadow King replied. “All who have visited me in the past have been destroyed, regardless of their allegiance.”

“That’s because the others who came before me were inept,” said Szass. “True,” replied Larloch. “You have not failed me,” he intoned. “Not yet.”

Another long moment of silence filled the library. Years could have passed for all either of the undead cared. Time was meaningless. Finally, without warning or preamble, Larloch, the Shadow King, revealed the secret past of Netheril.

With all that said, allow me to show how I would change the current tier of Larloch (the bolded parts):

At least Multi-Continent level (Listed as being comparable to the likes of a Phaethon; has explicitly fought against and compares to the likes of Elminster Aumar, is considered the greatest of the remaining Netherese arcanists, making him superior to the likes of Aumvor the Undying by a substantial margin; according to Ed Greenwood most of liches controlled by Larloch are individually more powerful than Acererak, all knowledge of the Realms that Greenwood possesses coming from Elminster), likely far higher, possibly Multiverse level+ (Following the Spellplague, Larloch attempted to become the new God of Magic in Mystra's stead- however, despite apparent success nearing, he was thwarted by Elminster and Srinshee before he could finish his rituals)

Btw, I found something that might elevate Acererak's standing:

From D&D Tomb of Annihilation: Although he has lived on many worlds and crafted countless demiplanes, Acererak spents most of his time building tombs.

Though I don't know the exact nature of demiplanes, so make of that what you will.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your apology is accepted. Thank you.

While it's true that Acerereak is not Ed's creation, saying that his words are irrelevant is incorrect due to one thing: Ed's words = Elminster's words. Aside from the fact that Elminster is Greenwood's blatant self-insert into the Realms, Ed has stated many times over the years (including in the tweet chain I've provided) that his knowledge of the Realms comes directly from Elminster. And while El in-universe is not omniscient, considering his age, experience, intelligence, knowledge of magic, and his status as a Chosen of Mystra, I think it's reasonable to trust his words when it comes to magic-related stuff.

So at the very least, Elminster considers Larloch and Vecna to be far above Acererak.

As for Tomb of Annihilation (which takes place in Faerun and was orchestrated by Acererak), it was released in 2017, while Ed/El's tweet comes from 2019. So at the time of this tweet, Acererak was technically a part of the Forgotten Realms. That's ignoring the fact that Acererak is known and feared through the D&D multiverse:

Ed Greenwood has repeatedly stated he is not Elminster, as in, Elminster is not his stand-in. This is mentioned explicitly in Dragon Magazine #359, and probably other sources, too. While I respect Ed's words, this still is not relevant- authors of different settings often consider their own creations stronger than those of other settings, giving conflicting statements. Ed Greenwood and Margaret Weis both say their most famous characters would defeat the others'. They are unreliable statements, therefore, and can't really be trusted for our purposes.

Also, we don't use tweets. Again, Word of God isn't really used here, Twitter only sparingly being used from sources that are solely for the output of lore information, which Ed Greenwood's twitter is not. As each setting is its own multiverse, your proposition may hold merit (in that it may refer to all D&D settings), but this is not absolute.

I mean, Larloch's supremacy over the remaining liches of the Realms is pretty much unquestionable. Szass Tam is basically Larloch's errand boy:

I agree, which is why I would use Szass Tam as an example of an extremely notable lich that Greenwood could say (with authority) Larloch is superior to.

With all that said, allow me to show how I would change the current tier of Larloch (the bolded parts):

At least Multi-Continent level (Listed as being comparable to the likes of a Phaethon; has explicitly fought against and compares to the likes of Elminster Aumar, is considered the greatest of the remaining Netherese arcanists, making him superior to the likes of Aumvor the Undying by a substantial margin; according to Ed Greenwood most of liches controlled by Larloch are individually more powerful than Acererak, all knowledge of the Realms that Greenwood possesses coming from Elminster), likely far higher, possibly Multiverse level+ (Following the Spellplague, Larloch attempted to become the new God of Magic in Mystra's stead- however, despite apparent success nearing, he was thwarted by Elminster and Srinshee before he could finish his rituals)

I cannot agree to adding the statement from Greenwood, though evidence that amounts to the same from actual materials (like direct comparisons between Larloch and Acererak, or Vecna, for that matter) would be fine, if you have them.

Btw, I found something that might elevate Acererak's standing:

From D&D Tomb of Annihilation: Although he has lived on many worlds and crafted countless demiplanes, Acererak spents most of his time building tombs.

Though I don't know the exact nature of demiplanes, so make of that what you will.

Demiplanes vary greatly in size and scope- while most generally have their own progression of time (an important feature for Low 2-C tiering), few are spatially infinite. For example, no Demiplane of Dread, in Ravenloft (probably the most famous demiplanes) is infinite. Most are the size of cities or small countries. Acererak could be higher tiered but that is speculation based on his potential ascension to godhood- given even certain gods are only in the bounds of Tier 6, such speculation isn't guaranteed to be accurate.

 

[Vaner77]

Ed Greenwood has repeatedly stated he is not Elminster, as in, Elminster is not his stand-in. This is mentioned explicitly in Dragon Magazine #359, and probably other sources, too. While I respect Ed's words, this still is not relevant- authors of different settings often consider their own creations stronger than those of other settings, giving conflicting statements. Ed Greenwood and Margaret Weis both say their most famous characters would defeat the others'. They are unreliable statements, therefore, and can't really be trusted for our purposes.

I was only half-serious about El being Ed's self-insert. It's a running gag at this point. However, the case of all Greenwood's knowledge coming from El still stands.

Also, we don't use tweets. Again, Word of God isn't really used here, Twitter only sparingly being used from sources that are solely for the output of lore information, which Ed Greenwood's twitter is not. As each setting is its own multiverse, your proposition may hold merit (in that it may refer to all D&D settings), but this is not absolute.

Wasn't aware of that.

I'm not sure I understand. You yourself stated that prior to Tomb of Annihilation, Acererak was operating outside of the FR setting. How can the quote I provided not refer to the D&D multiverse (or however you want to call it) as a whole? And isn't the D&D's jump from 2nd to 3rd edition a result of Vecna's actions in Sigil? Am I missing something?

I cannot agree to adding the statement from Greenwood, though evidence that amounts to the same from actual materials (like direct comparisons between Larloch and Acererak, or Vecna, for that matter) would be fine, if you have them.

Sadly, no.

I agree, which is why I would use Szass Tam as an example of an extremely notable lich that Greenwood could say (with authority) Larloch is superior to.

Speaking of Tam, hasn't he created a dimension with a planet or something? And I think I saw mentions of him having some sort of confrontation with Bane.

One more thing: shouldn't Larloch scale above Elminster? I'm almost positive that in The Herald, El was overpowered by Alustriel and Laeral, but when they tried to attack Larloch, he outright mocked them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was only half-serious about El being Ed's self-insert. It's a running gag at this point. However, the case of all Greenwood's knowledge coming from El still stands.

Sure, but this is still canon established by Greenwood. It's still WoG and thus suspect at best.

Wasn't aware of that.

I'm not sure I understand. You yourself stated that prior to Tomb of Annihilation, Acererak was operating outside of the FR setting. How can the quote I provided not refer to the D&D multiverse (or however you want to call it) as a whole? And isn't the D&D's jump from 2nd to 3rd edition a result of Vecna's actions in Sigil? Am I missing something?

Retcons happen. Greyhawk hasn't seen official support outside of mentions in a long, long time. As far as I'm aware, Acererak was moved to the Forgotten Realms for sake of ease. You may be right, though. I believe this lore existed even when he was a permanent resident of Greyhawk- that he traveled the multiverse setting traps for poor buggers. At the time, though, it referred (as far as we can prove) solely to the realms of Greyhawk and the Planes connected therein.

Speaking of Tam, hasn't he created a dimension with a planet or something? And I think I saw mentions of him having some sort of confrontation with Bane.

One more thing: shouldn't Larloch scale above Elminster? I'm almost positive that in The Herald, El was overpowered by Alustriel and Laeral, but when they tried to attack Larloch, he outright mocked them.

Creating things through prep time is a tad different than immediate feats. The High 6-A stuff they currently scale to is just the passive effects of creatures of that scale, that they scale above.

Mocking someone alone isn't exactly proof of being far superior or anything. Elminster fights Szass, neither of them are permanently dead yet, I'd say the two likely sit on even ground. That said, Elminster's page is truly and utterly shit at the moment, so.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That said, Elminster's page is truly and utterly shit at the moment, so.

Tbf him and our boy Mord were legacy profiles and unlike some of the others (like Vecna) they weren't really looked at after the Apocalypse from the Sky nerf.

 

[Vaner77]

Creating things through prep time is a tad different than immediate feats. The High 6-A stuff they currently scale to is just the passive effects of creatures of that scale, that they scale above.

Mocking someone alone isn't exactly proof of being far superior or anything. Elminster fights Szass, neither of them are permanently dead yet, I'd say the two likely sit on even ground.

Fair.

Also, here's a description of Tam's confrontation with Bane that I was able to find on the Internet (I don't have Unholy myself):

"Do you imagine," he asked, "that your punny summoning can hold me here?"
"For a while."
"Then die a true death," said Bane. "Die and be nothing."
Darkness seethed around Szass Tam and took the form of shadowy hands with long claws. Some gripped him, seeking to immobilize him, some pummeled him, and the rest hooked their talons in his body and ripped strips of flesh away.
The pain was excruciating. He forced himself to focus past it and speak the words of command to activate the talismans of protection concealed around his person.
The grip of the dark hands grew feeble. He wrenched himself away from them, and they faded into nothingness.
His now-tattered robe flapping around him, Szass Tam brandished his staff. Tendrils of gleaming ice coiled around Bane like vines climbing a tree. Spikes sprouted from them to push against the shadowstuff that was his body.
For a moment, the god seemed surprised, perhaps even slightly disconcerted, as a grown man might be if a child slapped him. Then he jerked the hand with gauntlet over his head, shattering his bounds.
"You see how it is," Szass Tam said. " Yes, you can break free, and quite possibly destroy me in the process. But you'll have to work at it, and I might even bloody your nose before you finish. It will be less trouble and take less fo your time to grant me the parley I seek."
The Black Hand snorted. "What is it you want, dead man?"

Unholy was released in 2009, so at the time of 4th Edition. Bane was listed as Greater Deity back then.

And here's the description of a confrontation between Alustriel & Laeral and Larloch from The Herald:

"Sorry, old friend and mentor." he heard Alustriel say sadly, from somewhere close above him, "We didn't want to do this. We never wanted to have to do anything like this to you."
"Yet do it we must," Laeral wept. "Finish it, Luse. Finish him now, before we weaken and change our minds. Still alive, he's a peril forever. Do it!"
"I think not," someone else said then.
It was a cold and calm voice that Elminster had heard before.
"Oh? And who are you?" Alustriel asked sharply - and there followed an ear-shattering explosion.
" Is that the best you can do?" the newcomer asked contemptuously. "Truly, Chosen have become lesser beings than they were in my day."
"And when was that, bone lord?" Laeral snapped, and through swimming tears, El was aware of a blindingly bright flash of emerald light.
The cold voice laughed. "You seem used to destroying far feebler liches. I am Larloch, the First Chosen of Mystryl, and her herald. Some call me the Shadow King. You may call me - Oblivion."

That said, Elminster's page is truly and utterly shit at the moment, so.

Oh? Can you elaborate?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Do you imagine," he asked, "that your punny summoning can hold me here?"
"For a while."
"Then die a true death," said Bane. "Die and be nothing."
Darkness seethed around Szass Tam and took the form of shadowy hands with long claws. Some gripped him, seeking to immobilize him, some pummeled him, and the rest hooked their talons in his body and ripped strips of flesh away.
The pain was excruciating. He forced himself to focus past it and speak the words of command to activate the talismans of protection concealed around his person.
The grip of the dark hands grew feeble. He wrenched himself away from them, and they faded into nothingness.
His now-tattered robe flapping around him, Szass Tam brandished his staff. Tendrils of gleaming ice coiled around Bane like vines climbing a tree. Spikes sprouted from them to push against the shadowstuff that was his body.
For a moment, the god seemed surprised, perhaps even slightly disconcerted, as a grown man might be if a child slapped him. Then he jerked the hand with gauntlet over his head, shattering his bounds.
"You see how it is," Szass Tam said. " Yes, you can break free, and quite possibly destroy me in the process. But you'll have to work at it, and I might even bloody your nose before you finish. It will be less trouble and take less fo your time to grant me the parley I seek."
The Black Hand snorted. "What is it you want, dead man?"

Interesting. He doesn't harm Bane here, but at minimum his preparations have allowed him to endure attacks from him. This could be argued as, at the very least, either a 5-B or 2-A dura feat (depending on whether or not it was Bane's avatar or not).

"Sorry, old friend and mentor." he heard Alustriel say sadly, from somewhere close above him, "We didn't want to do this. We never wanted to have to do anything like this to you."
"Yet do it we must," Laeral wept. "Finish it, Luse. Finish him now, before we weaken and change our minds. Still alive, he's a peril forever. Do it!"
"I think not," someone else said then.
It was a cold and calm voice that Elminster had heard before.
"Oh? And who are you?" Alustriel asked sharply - and there followed an ear-shattering explosion.
" Is that the best you can do?" the newcomer asked contemptuously. "Truly, Chosen have become lesser beings than they were in my day."
"And when was that, bone lord?" Laeral snapped, and through swimming tears, El was aware of a blindingly bright flash of emerald light.
The cold voice laughed. "You seem used to destroying far feebler liches. I am Larloch, the First Chosen of Mystryl, and her herald. Some call me the Shadow King. You may call me - Oblivion."

Good quotes but mocking someone for being weak doesn't inherently make you a higher tier.

Before continuing, I would like to say I appreciate that you're trying to incorporate the novels into the wiki (even if they are accursed novels from 4e, which has a tendency to **** with scaling). We have sparse few novels currently incorporated, even for characters who are primarily present in the novels, ironically- characters like Artemis Entreri, for example, have pages mostly dependent on their in-game statistics. So thank you for your contributions here and any you present in the future, they'll be helpful. If you like, we have a D&D work group on Discord where we discuss changes in advance, among other things related to the verse. I'd be happy to invite you if you like.

Oh? Can you elaborate?

Elminster is one of the oldest D&D pages. Currently, D&D pages make up just over 1% of the site's total characters. Elminster is also, as you might guess, one of the pages that would logically pull from the most sources for D&D- he has among the longest running histories of any D&D character ever. So, because of this:

• His page was made poorly based generally on his singular appearance in the Epic Level Handbook
• His page has not been updated since Myself and Qawsedf (among others) started this crusade to fix-up D&D back in 2018
• His page is often forgotten about since other projects are at hand

So it just kinda sucks. A couple other pages are also disgraceful at the moment, though we do occasionally bring them out from the dark ages. The Tarrasque was recently fixed by @Tllmbrg, another one of the very active D&D people. He's also working on a colossal Beholder update. So just understand that not every D&D page is up to the current standards of how we do things- the site changes often and thus a lot of D&D pages are outdated in one way or another. Elminster's is unfortunately so outdated as it has seen little in the way of significant fixes and revisions since it was made in the Pre-2018 days.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This could be argued as, at the very least, either a 5-B or 2-A dura feat (depending on whe

Ao forbids full gods on the mortal plane. It would need to be an avatar.

But I don't think it even counts as 5-B since Bane still casually broke the chains and the most that he could theoretically do is the equalivent of scratch damage. Like we don't scale Drizzt to the avatar of Demogorgon despite him being able to draw blood because Demo just heals and it would take millions of blows to even phase him according to the novel's narration.

But a likely higher would be warranted.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ao forbids full gods on the mortal plane. It would need to be an avatar.

But I don't think it even counts as 5-B since Bane still casually broke the chains and the most that he could theoretically do is the equalivent of scratch damage. Like we don't scale Drizzt to the avatar of Demogorgon despite him being able to draw blood because Demo just heals and it would take millions of blows to even phase him according to the novel's narration.

But a likely higher would be warranted.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten. So aye, that'd be a 5-B feat if taken that way.

 

[Vaner77]

Interesting. He doesn't harm Bane here, but at minimum his preparations have allowed him to endure attacks from him. This could be argued as, at the very least, either a 5-B or 2-A dura feat (depending on whether or not it was Bane's avatar or not).

He doesn't harm Bane, sure, but he claims he would be able to (barely but still), and Bane doesn't even deny that. This is especially impressive considering that Tam was actually weakened at the time:

The slaves screamed louder. Szass Tam amplified his voice to keep it audible above the din. His followers needed to synchronize their declarations with him. If the timing was off, the ritual could escape his control, with fatal consequences.
In fact, that could happen anyway. His powers were diminished, wizardry itself had become slippery and undependable and he was undertaking something he'd never attempted before.

Good quotes but mocking someone for being weak doesn't inherently make you a higher tier.

True, though I think it clearly puts Larloch above El, who was overpowered by Alustriel and Laeral.

Before continuing, I would like to say I appreciate that you're trying to incorporate the novels into the wiki (even if they are accursed novels from 4e, which has a tendency to **** with scaling). We have sparse few novels currently incorporated, even for characters who are primarily present in the novels, ironically- characters like Artemis Entreri, for example, have pages mostly dependent on their in-game statistics. So thank you for your contributions here and any you present in the future, they'll be helpful. If you like, we have a D&D work group on Discord where we discuss changes in advance, among other things related to the verse. I'd be happy to invite you if you like.

Thank you, I really appreciate it (especially considering my initial behavior), but to be fair I doubt I would be of much help. Aside from the fact I don't have a Discord, I'm not an active D&D player, and I'm by no means a lore expert. Most of my knowledge comes from old video games like Baldur's Gate, YouTube videos of MrRhexx (whose channel I wholeheartedly recommend), and whatever I can find on the Internet.

Speaking of quotes, I have another really neat accolade for Larloch from The Herald:

Telamont started to pace, cursing under his breath without thinking, though his every oath was an insult barbed against Shar. The coldness around him seemed somehow amused as his profanity faltered, then quickly gave way to admission.
"The archlich has always been stronger in the Art than I am - possibly stronger than all the massed arcanists of this city, even without the liches who serve him. Goading him out of his seclusion and researches by the bold actions we've taken was always a risk... which we're now facing."
"You don't seem to relish the coming confrontation, High Prince of Thultanthar."
"No," Telamont whispered fiercely, turning away.
[...]
"Goddess," the ruler of the Shadovar mumbled miserably, "I'm afraid of Larloch."

The "always" part is especially impressive considering Telamont's 3rd Edition stats. For Larloch to outclass Telamont to that degree... damn.