Hades vs The Dawn Machine

[Rabbit2002]

Hades ( saint seiya )
vs
The Dawn Machine ( Fallen London )

Speed are equalized
both are at 2-C
Who would win ?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Interesting match up..

Idk much about The Dawn Machine

but....

It almost looks like an incon, or Hades BFRs or Seals his power.

Hades also recently had his Soul and Mind Hax upgraded to 2-A levels in a recent CRT. It hasn't been edited into the profile yet though.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-small-but-massive-hax-potency-upgrade.122109/#post-4070761

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Oooh! A match about Fallen London! While I've stopped a bit on updating the stuff about Fallen London to focus on Bonelli's comics, Dwarf Fortress and Swords and Sandals, it'll be a honor to help in this match!

Sadly, the Dawn Machine's profile is a bit... Outdated. The entire verse is, to be honest. Thankfully, the Dawn Machine's AP, durability and all that should be mostly correct still.

So, since I know very little about Saint Seiya, can anyone inform me what Hades starts with?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Oooh! A match about Fallen London! While I've stopped a bit on updating the stuff about Fallen London to focus on Bonelli's comics, Dwarf Fortress and Swords and Sandals, it'll be a honor to help in this match!

Sadly, the Dawn Machine's profile is a bit... Outdated. The entire verse is, to be honest. Thankfully, the Dawn Machine's AP, durability and all that should be mostly correct still.

So, since I know very little about Saint Seiya, can anyone inform me what Hades starts with?

There is a series of passive to get past, but if passive aren't a problem.

He'll start by rushing in with some sword slashes.

The sword is especially dangerous to The Dawn Machine's from the way it looks.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Hades sword can BFR everyone to void with a stab
But first Dawn Machine have to pass some passive abilities like death manip, life manip, paralysis inducement

 

[Hasty12345]

Hades sword can BFR everyone to void with a stab

doesn't this take 3 days?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

There is a series of passive to get past, but if passive aren't a problem.

He'll start by rushing in with some sword slashes.

The sword is especially dangerous to The Dawn Machine's from the way it looks.

Yeah, nothing in the passives are really new to the Dawn Machine, unless Hades has some upscaling from being able to affect beings that have resisted similar abilities, and that to many degrees. I'll try to get some examples on the Dawn Machine resisting each of the passives.

Then, the Dawn Machine will get the first "move", as it immediately starts out with mind control, body manipulation and blinding, all of that with the light it emits passively.

How good is Hades resistance to those effects?

About Hades' sword slashes, the only part I'd be worried with is the BFR, all the other things described in the effects wouldn't affect the Dawn Machine all that much, and unless the Wheel of Samsara is a concept that is very different from merely other universes (Which I don't doubt - I don't know anything about Saint Seiya, so feel free to correct me at any time!) the Dawn Machine can likely travel back.

 

[Rabbit2002]

doesn't this take 3 days?

yes, it take 3 days to get there

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah, nothing in the passives are really new to the Dawn Machine, unless Hades has some upscaling from being able to affect beings that have resisted similar abilities, and that to many degrees. I'll try to get some examples on the Dawn Machine resisting each of the passives.

Then, the Dawn Machine will get the first "move", as it immediately starts out with mind control, body manipulation and blinding, all of that with the light it emits passively.

How good is Hades resistance to those effects?

About Hades' sword slashes, the only part I'd be worried with is the BFR, all the other things described in the effects wouldn't affect the Dawn Machine all that much, and unless the Wheel of Samsara is a concept that is very different from merely other universes (Which I don't doubt - I don't know anything about Saint Seiya, so feel free to correct me at any time!) the Dawn Machine can likely travel back.

Hades has 2-A passive mind hax, and resistance to 2-A mind hax..

He also had 2-A soul Manipulation with 2-A resistance as well.

That was accepted recently on this thread..

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-small-but-massive-hax-potency-upgrade.122109/#post-4070761

Reason it's not on the profile yet is because a "verse specific powers" page is being developed atm. Since most abilities apply to a multitude of characters..

Anyways, Hades can get around being blinded by using his 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th sense. They allow him to perfectly perceive the world around even when 5 basic senses and the 6th become unusable.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I've read the thread and it... Doesn't seem like it was accepted?

I mean, from what I read, the discussion was closed mid-discussion. In the case it's true, however, this match should be closed as the Dawn Machine has no way to win, probably. It could be argued if Hades' Divine Will only works as an offensive hax ability in his domain, in which case the debate might proceed, but if it applies on a general power level, this should be closed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I've read the thread and it... Doesn't seem like it was accepted?

I mean, from what I read, the discussion was closed mid-discussion. In the case it's true, however, this match should be closed as the Dawn Machine has no way to win, probably. It could be argued if Hades' Divine Will only works as an offensive hax ability in his domain, in which case the debate might proceed, but if it applies on a general power level, this should be closed.

I'm at work atm so my responses maybe slow.

It was acceptede with 3 staff members agreeing with it and closed on the basis of the oppositions posting redundant debunked arguments, and core of their argument was regarding the canons which requires a wholly separate crt for. They also kept changing their argument.. keeping the thread opened any longer would just be a revolving circle of the same arguments from the opposition with no new arguments being presented.

Anyways, the haxes isn't limited to just his domain. But the radius of his passive hax is actually quite small but can be extended by actively further by actively expanding the range.

What's the range with SBA again lol?

If this triple post or more I'm very sorry... I have very little internet here and I spammed post reply lol...

 

[Deonment]

What's the range with SBA again lol?

it is 4KM

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I'm at work atm so my responses maybe slow.

It was acceptede with 3 staff members agreeing with it and closed on the basis of the oppositions posting redundant debunked arguments, and core of their argument was regarding the canons which requires a wholly separate crt for. They also kept changing their argument.. keeping the thread opened any longer would just be a revolving circle of the same arguments from the opposition with no new arguments being presented.

Eh, it seemed the discussion still had things to offer, but I'll let it be. Later I'll ask around if it's been accepted.

Anyways, the haxes isn't limited to just his domain. But the radius of his passive hax is actually quite small but can be extended by actively further by actively expanding the range?

If they keep the 2-A tier even outside his domain, then there ain't much to do except close the match.

The Dawn Machine often proceeds to very high tier Void Manip, EE and Conceptual Manipulation if the mindwipe doesn't work, but if Hades at any moment attempted to do the Mind and Soul Manipulation, the Machine would be screwed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The range on the passives is only a few meters. The soul Manipulation also isn't passive for clarification. He also doesn't lead with mind Manipulation and the soul Manipulation is led with close range combat despite him having the ability to do it at range.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmm, then this might be fair.

The Dawn Machine, if it cannot mind-control Hades nor really influence him, immediately goes for EE on a conceptual level, with quite a punch behind it.

I'll try to get some feats to get the dimension of this, but it is a rather powerful one. "Baseline" resistance to EE or conceptual manipulation wouldn't be enough to resist it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is that EE thought based?

Edit: and when you say conceptual EE you mean he can erase concepts right?

Edit 2: Whats the range, and AOE, on it on that EE?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Yes. In fact, once they "think" of the rules they want to impose on reality, they don't even need to think anymore to keep applying them. Judgements are stars, and their light impose the laws of reality anywhere they shine on, and they decide which concepts and laws of reality exist or how they work. And, yes, they can erase concepts, although it is hard to give examples of one "erasing" a concept. It's more that they allow certain concepts to exist or to not exist where their light shines, and once they do not allow it anymore, it simply ceases to be.

It is omnidirectional and influences everything the light shine on, and mere "cover" does not work well, as the light of a Judgement applies to entire planets, moons and more, it needs to be in the depths of a planet or have special shielding for a Judgement light not to reach it. The Dawn Machine however is on a weird spot, as it is a bit of a failed, if powerful, artificial Judgement, and its reach is quite small compared to other Judgements; it only covers several dozens of kilometers omnidirectionally. It might be because it is restricted by other beings in the Neath, it might be because there's some lore tidbit I've missed that limits it, it might be because it limits itself. In any case, assuming the leat, we can say that it covers very wide areas that encompasses several dozens of kilometers around it in all directions.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Edit:

Yes. In fact, once they "think" of the rules they want to impose on reality, they don't even need to think anymore to keep applying them. Judgements are stars, and their light impose the laws of reality anywhere they shine on, and they decide which concepts and laws of reality exist or how they work. And, yes, they can erase concepts, although it is hard to give examples of one "erasing" a concept. It's more that they allow certain concepts to exist or to not exist where their light shines, and once they do not allow it anymore, it simply ceases to be.

It is omnidirectional and influences everything the light shine on, and mere "cover" does not work well, as the light of a Judgement applies to entire planets, moons and more, it needs to be in the depths of a planet or have special shielding for a Judgement light not to reach it. The Dawn Machine however is on a weird spot, as it is a bit of a failed, if powerful, artificial Judgement, and its reach is quite small compared to other Judgements; it only covers several dozens of kilometers omnidirectionally. It might be because it is restricted by other beings in the Neath, it might be because there's some lore tidbit I've missed that limits it, it might be because it limits itself. In any case, assuming the leat, we can say that it covers very wide areas that encompasses several dozens of kilometers around it in all directions.

end of edit:

does the light have to touch the target for it to be usable?

 

[Rabbit2002]

Can it be reflected by attack reflection of Hades ?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Edit:

end of edit:

does the light have to touch the target for it to be usable?

Yes, although I'd note that a "thin" wall, barrier or something like that isn't enough, and that any minimal reflection multiply the area of influence, and, again, if there is someone in the way of a Judgement, which disallows his light to reach them, I'll note that the light effects aren't even a "combat" maneuver, it is standard procedure and something they do by existing. If Hades does block the light, then the Dawn Machine would attempt to do something.

I'd also note that I am considering only the Dawn Machine, the reach becomes far more ludicrous if we take its upgraded counterpart, the Clockwork Sun, who fully encapsulates a far larger area than a solar system, if not greater.

Can it be reflected by attack reflection of Hades ?

I'm unsure. It depends on how Hades' AR works, although I'd note that Judgements are naturally resistant to the light of each other, even of vastly more powerful Judgements. The Dawn Machine wouldn't be affected by having its own light reflected. It'd only work as a defensive measure against it, at best.

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm unsure. It depends on how Hades' AR works, although I'd note that Judgements are naturally resistant to the light of each other, even of vastly more powerful Judgements. The Dawn Machine wouldn't be affected by having its own light reflected. It'd only work as a defensive measure against it, at best.

he kinda just stands there as it's passive. I thnk it's generally accepted attacks with holy manip, probability manip or high enough AP can bypass it.

Given DM's AP is also 2-C, I think Hades' attack reflection is more or less useless.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yes, although I'd note that a "thin" wall, barrier or something like that isn't enough, and that any minimal reflection multiply the area of influence, and, again, if there is someone in the way of a Judgement, which disallows his light to reach them, I'll note that the light effects aren't even a "combat" maneuver, it is standard procedure and something they do by existing. If Hades does block the light, then the Dawn Machine would attempt to do something.

I'd also note that I am considering only the Dawn Machine, the reach becomes far more ludicrous if we take its upgraded counterpart, the Clockwork Sun, who fully encapsulates a far larger area than a solar system, if not greater.

I'm unsure. It depends on how Hades' AR works, although I'd note that Judgements are naturally resistant to the light of each other, even of vastly more powerful Judgements. The Dawn Machine wouldn't be affected by having its own light reflected. It'd only work as a defensive measure against it, at best.

hmm That is interesting.. The light is still physical energy made of photons right? Hades at the start of battle would be warped in a barrier that can destroy matter (Including photons) down to a level somewhere below quarks. (Thought based ability) I am not for sure if that could interfere with this "Light" ability though. However, at this point if Hades is "annoyed" by this "light" technique he will end up throwing his sword at him and he will control his sword through telekensis. (Which will be imbued with the power of Cosmo and High level Soul destruction)

Hades attack reflection can reflect energy based attacks but the issue is that high AP relative to Hades AP, and also probability manipulation can bypass it as well.

 

[Peppersalt43]

hmm That is interesting.. The light is still physical energy made of photons right? Hades at the start of battle would be warped in a barrier that can destroy matter (Including photons) down to a level somewhere below quarks. (Thought based ability) I am not for sure if that could interfere with this "Light" ability though. However, at this point if Hades is "annoyed" by this "light" technique he will end up throwing his sword at him and he will control his sword through telekensis. (Which will be imbued with the power of Cosmo and High level Soul destruction)

Hades attack reflection can reflect energy based attacks but the issue is that high AP relative to Hades AP, and also probability manipulation can bypass it as well.

But how would he know that the light is dangerous? Or does he start with the barrier already around him?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

But how would he know that the light is dangerous? Or does he start with the barrier already around him?

He covers his body in the barrier. It's a starting move.

Edit: if hades survives the light he'll attempt to throw his sword and control it through telekinesis. The sword has 2-A BFR if someone is pierced by it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

is this worth bumping lol???

 

[Rabbit2002]

Dunno

 

[Peppersalt43]

is this worth bumping lol???

I think it is. It's an interesting matchup

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I completely forgot about this. Coincidentially, I've started to see FL stuff again, so I may have more arguments as well. I also got an entire new level of interest in this match. One thing that I'll note is that the profile seems to consider the Dawn Machine and the Clockwork Sun as one, which... We don't know for sure, FL is very ambiguous on the subject. So, I'll consider feats from the Clockwork Sun as well, but this could change in the future, especially after I revise the FL profiles. (Some of them are... wrong or need some serious rewording, and all need more explanations)

hmm That is interesting.. The light is still physical energy made of photons right? Hades at the start of battle would be warped in a barrier that can destroy matter (Including photons) down to a level somewhere below quarks. (Thought based ability) I am not for sure if that could interfere with this "Light" ability though. However, at this point if Hades is "annoyed" by this "light" technique he will end up throwing his sword at him and he will control his sword through telekensis. (Which will be imbued with the power of Cosmo and High level Soul destruction)

That's a good question. I'm unsure if the light of a Judgement is still made of quarks, considering how it acts upon reality, but let's assume yes, as I don't remember any evidence of the contrary.

The thing about the Dawn Machine's light is that Hades either is affected, and is instantly screwed by it, or he resists it to the point that it wouldn't be really needed to cast the barrier. In fact, if Hades is somehow affected by it, he might be instantly glassed. The Clockwork Sun passively vitrifies everything nearby it to stupid degrees, and it can will the glassing process to become way quicker, instantaneous and if the afflicted parts explode off. So, does Hades have resistance to EE, conceptual manipulation and matter manipulation of a high degree? Matter Manipulation I'm pretty sure he has.

Funnily enough, if this was any other Judgement aside from the Dawn Machine, I'd argue that most forms of Soul Manipulation are very redundant to use against a Judgement, as not only are their souls extremely powerful and resistant to most forms of Soul Manipulation, but they passively emit and create innumerable amounts of souls nonstop, as all souls are spores from a Judgement. Thankfully for Hades, that aspect will be ignored here as I don't think the Dawn Machine has the same physiology as a normal Judgement.

Hades attack reflection can reflect energy based attacks but the issue is that high AP relative to Hades AP, and also probability manipulation can bypass it as well.

Hmmm...

While I'm sure Judgements have Probability Manipulation, I don't recall any specific feats, so I won't try to argue for that.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Clockwork Sun passively vitrifies everything nearby it to stupid degrees, and it can will the glassing process to become way quicker, instantaneous and if the afflicted parts explode off. So, does Hades have resistance to EE, conceptual manipulation and matter manipulation of a high degree? Matter Manipulation I'm pretty sure he has.

Vitrifies through a process of using heat?

Hades has extremely high resistance to matter manipulation, and History erasure resistance of EE (Though you could argue resistance to CM levels of EE, but its not on his profile so that is an argument for another time)


He currently does not have resistance to CM on his profile... (Cries internally since that should be from the moment of the profiles creation lol)

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Vitrifies through a process of using heat?

Nope, direct Matter Manipulation. Of course, the Dawn Machine can also emit ludicrous amounts of heat, but it's a matter manip thing.

Hades has extremely high resistance to matter manipulation, and History erasure resistance of EE (Though you could argue resistance to CM levels of EE, but its not on his profile so that is an argument for another time)

What would be a CM resistance feat for Hades? I'm curious.

Also, after I have some time off, I'll try to list here some feats that the Dawn Machine, Clockwork Sun and Judgements it'd scale to would have. I went to look for a bit, and there's a lot of things there. Sadly I had to rely on the wiki a lot (Which thankfully references very well the things), as the universe is so massive that even with me personally scanning the games, I have barely 1% of the published FL material there is.