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Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

Also, it should be mentioned that the intro to the Japanese version repeats the English version for the most part. He still says he'll create a new galaxy.

A point I wanna bring up is that should Bowser have meant your average galaxy, then what were the galaxies you visit throughout the game? I'm purposely ignoring the official sites and websites that say Mario travels the vast universe, I'm not legitimately arguing Mario Galaxy only takes place in a single Galaxy. The Japanese would like to have one believe as such from the wording of "Center of the Galaxy" but this literally contradicts so much of the marketing, official site descriptions, guide descriptions, and even the personal developer interviews. Like I said, even if the Japanese line is "from here to the farthest center of the galaxy," that doesn't make sense. They fly to a completely different galaxy in the ending literally shown as a distant galaxy they are flying towards and it's red, just like how the farthest known galaxies appear to us due to Doppler Effect. It makes way more sense to interpret this as the farthest (as in distance from them) galaxy's center. This would fit in line with all the "travels the vast universe" marketing and official descriptions Nintendo used as well as the visuals in-game.

Anyways, while one would think Galaxy 1 taking place in a single galaxy then invalidates the galaxies being galaxies, the Japanese Galaxy 2 shows us that galaxy can even be used in conjunction with "World", meaning the worlds in Galaxy 2 are called galaxies despite the fact one of these worlds contains a galactic supercluster.

So basically what I'm saying is that the even if lowballed you can make the argument that Mario's galaxies can contain clusters within them, thus making it potentially 3-B even as a low-end. And while I haven't found the source, I've found Japanese sites saying that the level for Bowser's Galaxy Reactor is "a cluster of galaxies".

This is a "just in case" for if the Uni+ feat isn't actually uni+ due to stars being seen in the background while it happens. I don't know if that necessarily disproves it as a feat, because the Japanese version still does say the new universe stuff and Bowser mourning over his universe right before the feat.
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
This is a "just in case" for if the Uni+ feat isn't actually uni+ due to stars being seen in the background while it happens. I don't know if that necessarily disproves it as a feat, because the Japanese version still does say the new universe stuff and Bowser mourning over his universe right before the feat.
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It's still uni+. The grand stars are stated to be able to collapse and recreate the universe and bowser sat on top of the reactor that threatened space and time.
 
The_Smashor said:
Believe me, I would absolutely accept universal Mario if it wasn't so questionable. You think that the stuff I'm saying about Mario supporters is just petty insults? Because it is that, but it's also to highlight that Mario fans have a tendency to blow things out of proportion for the sake of having a stronger verse. Almost every Mario versus thread I've been in argues that Mario characters lead with hax, which is blatantly wrong with Dimentio's mindhax being the sole exception.
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Ok, how is it wrong? Just provide evidence please, for once.
The_Smashor said:
I expect Mario fans to bend the truth to their benefit at this point, because I've seen it so many times before. There are powerful things about Mario that I genuinely believe in, like Mario's fatehax, because it's explained well. I don't just blindly hate Mario.
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Appeal to motive. Instead of providing evidence as to why it's not legit, you focus on the motives of Mario supporters? Personally, I don't think you're arguing in good faith at all, especially considering the arguments you have made recently and your history of the series on this site, so I don't think you should be talking about Mario fans.
 
liluzivert said:
Personally, I don't think you're arguing in good faith at all, especially considering the arguments you have made recently and your history of the series on this site, so I don't think you should be talking about Mario fans.
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Don't you get it? I think like this due to how long I've been here. I have experience with Mario fans, and I've seen things like that time and time again. "Bowser leads with transmuting people into bricks", "Bowser leads with sealing", "Mario wins via variety", all followed by 6 FRAs. In my time on this wiki I have rarely had a positive experience discussing the Mario series.
 
The_Smashor said:
Don't you get it? I think like this due to how long I've been here. I have experience with Mario fans, and I've seen things like that time and time again. "Bowser leads with transmuting people into bricks", "Bowser leads with sealing", "Mario wins via variety", all followed by 6 FRAs. In my time on this wiki I have rarely had a positive experience discussing the Mario series.
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So... you're just gonna say Mario fans say "x" and not why it's wrong? Are we just gonna make more claims with 0 evidence at this point? Not to mention you've been blatantly against the series for a while now, and I haven't seen a single good point you've made during that time.
 
By the way, I just talked with DDM, and a character's durability dosn't scale to existence erasure they survive, even tier 2 and above, meaning Sammer Kingdom is a no go.
 
Actually, Gyro brought up points on another thread it's not really portrayed as an existence erasure feat. The Incomplete Void actually portrays it like a big explosion. But I would ping @GyroNutz if he can explain it better.

Also, about Wario's feat, actually while there is no proof that they physically destroyed the universe, Black Jewel both created it and stabilizes it. The former is AP but needs universal energy systems, and the latter is not AP unless universal energy systems. Though, the lasers do use the same universal energy source Black Jewel uses to create/stabilize the parallel universe.

Also, I never agree with main Mario cast having a solid universal rating, and honestly do not care one way or the other if that gets removed; but he should still be Tier 4 at bare minimum for other reasons. But he has enough solid feats for them to be possibly Low 2-C as discussed in better detail on previous threads.
 
Yeah, honestly there's definitely enough universal Mario stuff for a "Possibly" (Wario series and regular Mario series being separate is really, really dumb).

Prima Guide is also still really iffy, so it absolutely shouldn't be the main reasoning.
 
Anyway, I think this should be closed now. No new arguments have been made at this point and it seems like some are conceding to the tier anyway.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I don't see why. Y'all keep saying that but nothing has been brought up to discredit it.
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It's an english-only guide that most of the people who actually wrote for Super Mario Galaxy couldn't have possibly read.

If the writers for SMG were fluent in English, there wouldn't have been any need for a localization team.
 
If you want to focus on only Japanese then I may have a fun CRT coming up soon.

And again, Uni+ is still kind of supported even if you use Japanese.
 
The_Smashor said:
It's an english-only guide that most of the people who actually wrote for Super Mario Galaxy couldn't have possibly read.

If the writers for SMG were fluent in English, there wouldn't have been any need for a localization team.
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You guys act like Nintendo has no translators. Stop using this terrible logic. You can straight up dismiss the credibility of all English translations with this
 
liluzivert said:
You guys act like Nintendo has no translators. Stop using this terrible logic. You can straight up dismiss the credibility of all English translations with this
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To be fair, the English translations are different from the actual direct Japanese versions so the translators clearly aren't perfect.

Also what do you mean I can dismiss the credibility of all English translations with this? We literally don't use English Translations for ******* anything. I don't need to dismiss the credibility of English Translations, we don't give them any to begin with.
 
The_Smashor said:
To be fair, the English translations are different from the actual direct Japanese versions so the translators clearly aren't perfect.
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They both refer to the same idea of the Universe being destroyed. That is not an argument, and if you're referring to DragonLord's translations, then it's just him nitpicking what's said in the Japanese so that they don't scale. He doesn't even have a confirmation if it refers to something different or not, all he can make is theories. So the English stuff is valid regardless.
 
We don't count English stuff for anything unless it was made in an English speaking country you understand, right? SAO just got nerfed to hell and back because of a mistranslation, the original Japanese version is our gospel in versus debating.
 
The_Smashor said:
We don't count English stuff for anything unless it was made in an English speaking country you understand, right? SAO just got nerfed to hell and back because of a mistranslation, the original Japanese version is our gospel in versus debating.
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We do count English stuff as long as it's not contradicted by the Japanese version. You guys have not provided solid evidence that it's a mistranslation, all of what's said in Japanese could match the same as the one in English. This applies to any other Japanese video game on this site. Zelda, Sonic, Pokemon, all of them use English translations as main sources.
 
A mistranslation? Do we even have any evidence anyone from Japan looked over the Prima Guides? As far as we know a marketing team in America who don't care about the story of Super Mario Galaxy at all looked it over.

The burden is on you to prove the Japanese writers looked it over, because it's impossible to prove they didn't.
 
The_Smashor said:
A mistranslation? Do we even have any evidence anyone from Japan looked over the Prima Guides? As far as we know a marketing team in America who don't care about the story of Super Mario Galaxy at all looked it over.

The burden is on you to prove the Japanese writers looked it over, because it's impossible to prove they didn't.
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Ok, let's make sure ALL Japanese video game verses get downgraded because of a lack of evidence that the Japanese writers looked over the English translations. This is what i mean by you not arguing in good faith, all of this could be applied to most of the site. Why do it for one when you can do it for all of them? It's just blatant bias against Mario at this point.

If it's accepted by the company and doesn't contradict anything, it's perfectly valid. It is entirely safe to assume it's accurate at that point. It wasn't just one person making the game, it was an entire team from said company. Nintendo made the game and thus it's their property, so chances are what they say about the plot is valid, even if we don't know how they did it.
 
liluzivert said:
Ok, let's make sure ALL Japanese video game verses get downgraded because of a lack of evidence that the Japanese writers looked over the English translations. This is what i mean by you not arguing in good faith, all of this could be applied to most of the site. Why do it for one when you can do it for all of them? It's just blatant bias against Mario at this point.
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Most series get their stuff from the Japanese version. Even my personal favorite verse, Azure Striker Gunvolt, was hit with a huge nerf because of a mistranslation. We use the Japanese version for Japanese media, end of story.

I would love nothing more than to have Mountain level Gunvolt, but the fact is it is not the original writer's intention.
 
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The_Smashor said:
Most series get their stuff from the Japanese version. Even my personal favorite verse, Azure Striker Gunvolt, was hit with a huge nerf because of a mistranslation. We use the Japanese version for Japanese media, end of story.
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Bro. Where is the mistranslation in the Japanese version? The English does not contradict anything in Mario. Prove that they couldn't possibly mean universal destruction.

At least with TM he's new to the site and probably doesn't understand powerscaling very well. At the very least he said he would downgrade other verses like Sonic if they had "poor" reasonings for the tier.

You are just blatantly twisting the rules because you are biased against Mario, if you were honest you would've made a crt that pointed it out for many verses in general. Persona for example uses mostly English translations, and those same translations gave them upgrades. Zelda heavily relies on English translations. Sonic also relies on English. Most of the site relies on it. If you can't prove there's a mistranslation then just move on. Just because it's not the native language doesn't always mean it's never reliable.
 
liluzivert said:
Bro. Where is the mistranslation in the Japanese version? The English does not contradict anything in Mario.
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English didn't contradict anything in Gunvolt either. In English, someone said their power increased a hundredfold, while in Japan she vaguely said she was stronger. English doesn't contradict anything, but Gunvolt still got nerfed.

If I'm using this logic for my favorite verse of all time, then I am not merely being biased against Mario here. Show me one example where the English version was used when the said part of the English version wasn't specifically in the Japanese version.
 
The_Smashor said:
English didn't contradict anything in Gunvolt either. In English, someone said their power increased a hundredfold, while in Japan she vaguely said she was stronger. English doesn't contradict anything, but Gunvolt still got nerfed.

If I'm using this logic for my favorite verse of all time, then I am not merely being biased against Mario here.
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Bowser said he was gonna use the reactor to create a core for his new universe, which is also supported by the fact that Power Stars can create entire universes in 64, and the Grand Star is far superior. So the idea that Bowser will collapse and recreate the universe works. You need evidence to support the idea that there was no universal destruction, because there's already evidence even in the Japanese that supports it. In gunvolt's case, where's the evidence that supports their power becoming hundredfold?
 
Dragon's Japanese translation says otherwise. Also, while you can say "Oh, Dragon purposefully mistranslated to make it sound worse", how can I be certain you didn't purposefully mistranslate it to make it sound better?
 
The_Smashor said:
Dragon's Japanese translation says otherwise. Also, while you can say "Oh, Dragon purposefully mistranslated to make it sound worse", how can I be certain you didn't purposefully mistranslate it to make it sound better?
Click to expand...
It doesn't. It just says the reactor will become the core of his new universe. And I didn't even mistranslate this either, this is straight up what he had. I never translated anything.
unknown.png


As Fox pointed out, taking over the universe and not recreating one doesn't make any sense according to the plot of the game. As well as the lore supporting the fact that Power Stars can create universes. All I said was that Dragon was nitpicking on what it meant by creating more baseless assumptions that make less sense then what's accepted.

Foxthefox1000 said:
Bowser had a grand plan which was the Grand Star thing IIRC. Why utilise the Grand Stars for generating dark matter and galaxies as shown in the names of the levels if his true goal was to... not even use them at all??? We saw that the Grand Star being plucked from the Reactor literally caused a Uni+ event so why is it being used to create a new universe somehow more unbelievable than these roundabout assumptions you're trying to make to explain it as something it clearly is not? Everything goes against the assumption it's just him wanting to expand the empire and rule. The English parallel, which you didn't acknowledge, yet again states a creation feat, further supporting that line in Japanese meaning creation along with all the other evidence in support. You literally have nothing but your own beliefs here.
Click to expand...
 
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Anyways, if the Japanese version supports Low 2-C, then we don't need the Prima Guides. If it dosn't, the Prima Guides shouldn't be used anyway.
 
Also, your Gunvolt comparison was a false equivalence. Considering the info you gave me, increasing power a hundredfold could have just been hyperbole and since the Japanese version just says the power increases, then that confirms it. In terms of Mario, there's multiple statements that support Uni+. Bowser being able to collapse and recreate the universe, "the blast that threatens the very fabric of the universe", making a core for the new universe in the Japanese, power stars creating universes, the visuals of the end of Galaxy, etc.
 
liluzivert said:
In terms of Mario, there's multiple statements that support Uni+. Bowser being able to collapse and recreate the universe, "the blast that threatens the very fabric of the universe", making a core for the new universe in the Japanese, power stars creating universes, the visuals of the end of Galaxy, etc.
Click to expand...
Except all those is based on your translation.
 
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