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Naruto Elements: Raiton.
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
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This is a great blog, and I agree.
The only thing I don't agree is the Kirin portion, but we've already had our debate on that. I have no issue putting this on the verse page.
The only thing I don't agree is the Kirin portion, but we've already had our debate on that. I have no issue putting this on the verse page.
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I agree as well everything looks solid
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Commented on the blog, I think it looks good.
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I disagree with the point on Kirin. It is not "far faster than any natural lightning", and the existence of Kirin as a technique should disprove that idea that most Lightning Style ninjutsu travel at lightning speed.
More powerful than just a lightning bolt? Obviously. Not necessarily faster.
You also state that Sasuke uses his chakra but that's obviously false. Sasuke's jutsu is just to direct the lightning from the clouds in Itachi's direction in his own words.
Look at Black Zetsu's quote here. The reason why Kirin is considered unavoidable is because it uses the speed of natural lightning shot down from the clouds. He doesn't say anything about Sasuke increasing the speed of lightning.
More powerful than just a lightning bolt? Obviously. Not necessarily faster.
You also state that Sasuke uses his chakra but that's obviously false. Sasuke's jutsu is just to direct the lightning from the clouds in Itachi's direction in his own words.
Look at Black Zetsu's quote here. The reason why Kirin is considered unavoidable is because it uses the speed of natural lightning shot down from the clouds. He doesn't say anything about Sasuke increasing the speed of lightning.
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I think the part about not being able to dodge natural lightning is a bit hyperbolic. It's Kishi's usual "You can't dodge it", "It's impenetrable defense" etc.
I mean in that same scene Itachi blocked Kirin, even Konohamaru was capable of dodging Natural Lightning from the clouds in recent episodes.
I mean in that same scene Itachi blocked Kirin, even Konohamaru was capable of dodging Natural Lightning from the clouds in recent episodes.
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There's also the point that Zetsu usually makes things sound impossible to demotivate his opponents considering how cunning and deceiving the dude is.
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@KLOL506; that would only be a valid point if Zetsu was actually talking to anyone there.
We also got the statement about it being "impossible to evade" from both Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
Bear in mind that I'm not stating it has to be literally impossible to avoid or block. We later see that even Amaterasu can be dodged after all. The point is why would they be saying it?
We also got the statement about it being "impossible to evade" from both Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
Bear in mind that I'm not stating it has to be literally impossible to avoid or block. We later see that even Amaterasu can be dodged after all. The point is why would they be saying it?
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Why would anyone be saying that Gaara's defense is absolute when someone like Guy or Kakashi would humiliate it casually? Even Lee bypassed it.
Kishi saying Kishi things.
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Agree with this, great job.
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- Thread starter
- #16
I"d like to see if you could find an study about a cumulonimbus' lightning hitting the ground in 0.001 seconds, or any lightning for a more common cloud, please. Otherwhise, Kirin is still faster, far faster than the speed of lightning here.
I knew that you'd use such a ridiculous point like this one. Should I start with Konohamaru dodging natural lightning in the most recent episodes? Sasuke himself dodging and cutting lightning, the already accepted feat of Kakashi intercepting lightning.. and many others.
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That would all depend on distance. Black Zetsu's statement unfortunate is only a timeframe, not a speed. I don't know what Kishi was thinking of when he made that statement.
No, because you should know that is an irrelevant point. What Konohamaru does in the Boruto series takes place several years after this scene in the Naruto manga. That's like saying "What did Sasuke call Amaterasu undodgeable if the Raikage could dodge it later?" It should be obvious that the scene of the Raikage dodging it hadn't happened yet...
I don't know what you're referring to here with Sasuke cutting lightning.
There is no context for that feat. Nothing proving Kakashi has to move at a certain speed for it.
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- #18
That's why I said to get a link for a cumulonimbus cloud, the same type of cloud of Sasuke's Kirin. Get a link of a lightning faster than 0.001s from a cumulonimbus cloud or concede the point.
It doesn't matter if it's years after Naruto series, it can be thousands of years later, the concepts doesnt change, and the character level is almost the same. If natural lightning can't really be dodged, it wouldn't make any sense for Konohamaru to dodge lightning. Well anyway, this is useless, it's stated that Kirin can't be dodged or blocked, Itachi did it. Same for Amaterasu, Ay dodged. And Zetsu, who stated that Kirin can't be blocked, already knew Itachi's potential, he knew every single abilitie of him and from Sasuke too.
Novels.
It's already calced at almost Mach 3000.
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Why would I concede the point? I don't get what you're arguing here. You want me to concede Black Zetsu's statement?
I don't think you even understand my point. Haven't we been over this months ago? My argument is not "This was stated to be undodgeable, therefore it should be treated as undodgeable for all time."
Did you miss me saying this?
That's like saying "What did Sasuke call Amaterasu undodgeable if the Raikage could dodge it later?" It should be obvious that the scene of the Raikage dodging it hadn't happened yet...
Seriously... You're not even reading my points.
Also, Zetsu knew every single ability of Itachi and Sasuke? That's where you're mistaken since they didn't know about Kirin until it was happening, and they didn't know about Itachi's Susano'o.
Well, that doesn't help. Just like the Boruto anime, this presumably takes place after the series?
For a calc where you basically have to assume everything, you can get almost any kind of value. I don't have any reason to trust that Mach 3000 figure right now.
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- #20
Point: Kirin is faster than natural lightning. Why? Becayse 0.001s is the absolute high end of a lightning stroke. Can you find proof to sustain that Kirin isn't faster than natural lightning? If so, please link it here.
Then why arguing this in the first place, Damage? Why bring up such a useless discussion like a false statament from Zetsu? Natural lightning can be dodged.
Does it matter? Still lightning dodge from Sasuke. Already debunks Zetsu's statement.
What the **** are you talking about damage? It's Kakashi's feat against Kakuzu, it didn't assume nothing.
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0.001s isn't a speed, you know that, right? You do know that "natural lightning" can range pretty highly in speed too? Depending on what distance Black Zetsu is referring to for lightning, that value can range from Mach 583 to Mach 11661. We just use an average value for the wiki.
Because you're ignoring context in the manga.
You're trying to find counter-evidence from years after that scene in order to disprove the statement when the statement is perfectly fine for the time that it was made.
No, it doesn't.
I thought you were talking about Kakashi's stated feat about cutting natural lightning in the past.
You were a bit misleading when you said natural lightning when what you meant was a lightning jutsu.
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- #23
And the value from this wiki is what I'm arguing. For Kirin to be the exact value of the wiki, the distance would be 440m, and it isnt.
Natural lightning = 440,000 m/s, unless stated something different by the work or when Dargoo change the value. And I know that what Zetsu gave us is a timeframe, and I'm asking you to link here an study or something about a cumulonimbus lightning. cumulonimbus, because thats the same type of cloud as Kirin, thus the distance should somewhat equal.
A chapter after the statement about not being able to block, we saw Itachi blocking it. So no, it's not perfectly fine for the time of the statement. One chapter after that. People dodging lightning would disprove it.
No, because Kakuzu's lightning is the same as natural lightning.
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He didn't say natural lightning, he said Kakashi intercepted lightning, here's the quote:
Anyway, what are you discussion and with which intentions? I literally can't understand it.
Do you not agree that we should tree Lightning Ninjutsu as Lightning Fast or what?
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- #25
It's the same thing tho, his lightning is accepted as natural.
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I don't understand why you're not seeing the point here.
I just don't understand how you cannot see how what you're saying is ridiculous.
Itachi pulling out an ability that Sasuke and Black Zetsu weren't expecting doesn't mean that everything they say is false. To the best of their knowledge at the time, the statements were correct. How do you expect them to take into account something that hasn't happened yet?
@Slacjow; you're right. My apologies to M3X on that point.
I don't object to us treating some specific Lightning Jutsu as lightning fast until something more comes up to disprove it - but I don't think we should be throwing out the Kirin statements or ignoring their implications for scaling.
Cutting a natural lightning bolt from the clouds and cutting a lightning jutsu that we assume to be the same as natural lightning is not the same thing.
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Well to be honest we already reached a compromise on this topic the last time it came up. We'd treat certain Lightning Ninjutsu as being lightning speed, not all of them, and we wouldn't be scaling people in that arc/part of the series to be above Kirin in speed.
My objection in this thread is to M3X's wording on his blog which treats Kirin as being far superior to any kind of natural lightning and therefore irrelevant. When the whole point of it is that Kirin is special because is is natural lightning.
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I don't know what makes Kirin>Any Natural Lightning in speed department. I guess the calculation through the timeframe? But then again the speed of natural lightning also varies so saying Kirin is faster than any natural lightning is baseless.
The only thing I can think of scaling is Susanoo formation, because technically you can't scale anything else from Kirin, there's just no feats or statements that put characters above or equal to Kirin specifically.
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Blocking something is usually simpler than dodging something tbf.
But if we do default to Kirin being nominally faster than the accepted average (which as a note is a thing that happens plenty of times IRL), all associated speed calcs would also likely need to be disregarded as well. Or at least have an asterisk placed next to them since we would be throwing out the average lightning speed stuff for that attack move.
Finally I should mention that it's very possible that Raiton isn't lightning speed like Damage is suggesting. Every criteria mentioned in the blog can be done by high voltage electricity which has no consistent or intrinsic speed value.
A lot of calcs for other lightning moves that assume the average speed get results that eclipses Kirin's speed. Kakashi's thing is like 3x Kirin and for whatever reason we scale Zetsu and Sasuke to be mach 3k because of Kirin.
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- #32
Except de criteria is for lightning, not "high voltage electricity". Nothing in the page suggest that the criteria applies for that. Raiton has all criteria, I don't know what is hard to see here.
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Thats not going to happen, not only there are many criteria, again, there's Boruto feat.
We treat Raiton that looks like Lightning Bolt as Lightning Fast and I don't see a problem with that as of right now.
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- #35
Kirin was calced to be something like ~Mach 4000 or something, so it's the fastest thing we have at that point of the series. The blog also states that not all lightning jutsus should be lightning speed, I'm not proposing that, because I also don't belive that. Only lightning shots like Kakuzu's lightning or Mitsuki's
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- #36
Again, it does not matter. If the lightning has some criteria, it can be lightning speed. That's literally how it works.
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Yeah. This is kind of one of the things I've never fully gotten about our standards. It does seem possible to me that a lot of the stuff on the blog post can be true without the speed of the Jutsu having be lightning speed.
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- #39
Boruto anime has more lightning feats and more lightning users, just like in the blog, where you can see the eletrolysis part. It would be more like a general explanation to avoid peope wasting their time.
Of course they are different, they manipulate it at will, they can do whatever they want with the element
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- #40
That would be against the wiki standards, All criteria met = lightning speed. Raiton has it. And again, I'm not suggesting literally all lightning jutsus to be lightning speed.
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