Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can we use ancient magic spells as an intelligence feats ?

Ex: The liberators understanding their magic(gravity, space, time...) and that how they reach its true potential, Oscar replicate the apostle disintegrating light through matter manipulation, Ryutarou understanding dragon transformation and replicate it, Yue learning from Ehit...and the more they understand it the better they get at it(through trial and error). I couldn't think of many examples.

I mean they don't just draw a circle and the magic happen. Each spell has a core(info) while other people do it mentally, which seem like reality warping.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Can we use ancient magic spells as an intelligence feats ?

We do use them for the intelligence sections of the characters, they are part of the reason why most of the characters are rated as genius.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can someone check the scans I've gathered for Unknown's profile ?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Can someone check the scans I've gathered for Unknown's profile ?

Tomorrow I will try to look at it.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The first scan works for large size but not really for spatial manipulation, instead would be aura. And before you ask, why this wouldn't be spatial manip but Hajime case when he got angry at Mother is spatial manip, simple, because in the Hajime example G10, a robot with not supernatural senses, specifically stated that the space itself looked to be breaking, in unknown case instead it seemed to happen something similar to how things can look distorted in a hot placed due to heat affecting the refraction of light, which can be explained with just aura instead of assume that the mere pressure of his presence is affecting space itself which would be noted more times if it was really that.

The extrasensory senses is fine, but you didn't post any scan of demons seeing souls so they don't get any particular sense from that. Also, since they would already have both abilities as magic users, those additions feel somewhat redundant.

Mind manip is fine.

Madness is fine but I don't really see the telepathy part, especially since it's said how the sound reaches the ears, which wouldn't happen if it was telepathy.

Incorporeality is fine, it was already granted to demons in the general npi of the verse. Invisibility doesn't fit as demons are stated that on Earth they can just manifest as shadows due to the gap between worlds, so is not that they are invisible and only their shadows can be seen, instead they are only shadows and thus that's the only thing that can be see.

Illusion and shapeshifting is fine, memory manip should be changed to telepathy since reading the mind of someone falls under that power.

The limited technology manip is fine.

Possession and stats amp is fine, but I don't see any biological manip, and no, waking them to fight if they faint isn't biological manip.

Unholy, fire and bodily weaponry are fine.

Wind manip I think is fine? I'm not really sure if they can manipulate the air itself or just the harmful/special components of the wind of lamentation. Though just to make it clear so there is no misunderstanding, regardless of how is labeled at the end Unknown wouldn't be able to use that in a match unless they are at Hell or there's a way for it to gather at other world.

Lightning, weather manipulation and shadow manip is fine, since the requirements for weapon mastery are so lax I think it could be fine?

Summoning, empowerment, portal creation and dimensional travel are fine.

Unknown isn't at the level of the seven kings, he could maaaaybe be at the level of royalty, though weak royalty at most considering how those that we saw had significantly better feats as shown when they attacked Hajime and Shia, and that royalty in general didn't care much for him. So at that point you can't really scale him to their strength, so the best would be to just put him at unknown tier.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

in unknown case instead it seemed to happen something similar to how things can look distorted in a hot placed due to heat affecting the refraction of light, which can be explained with just aura instead of assume that the mere pressure of his presence is affecting space itself which would be noted more times if it was really that.

Make sense

The extrasensory senses is fine, but you didn't post any scan of demons seeing souls so they don't get any particular sense from that. Also, since they would already have both abilities as magic users, those additions feel somewhat redundant.

Just added it.
BTW, do you think this mean demons eat souls?

「Nice to meet you. Are you someone from that castle? This is quite a novel way to invite someone! Furthermore, that’s one splendid castle! By the way, perhaps there is some kind of misunderstanding, so I’ll say this first but, we are just a virtuous tourist――」

――Mixed person who isn’t human or demon, I’ll receive your soul as the compensation of your sin invading my territory ch345

There is mention of humans selling their souls to demons like Unknown.

The extrasensory senses is fine, but you didn't post any scan of demons seeing souls so they don't get any particular sense from that. Also, since they would already have both abilities as magic users, those additions feel somewhat redundant.

It's a mix of soud with telepathy that redult in their demonic whisper. If notice their speech line is different, similar when Tio speak in dragon mode. All demons use telepathy.

Incorporeality is fine, it was already granted to demons in the general npi of the verse. Invisibility doesn't fit as demons are stated that on Earth they can just manifest as shadows due to the gap between worlds, so is not that they are invisible and only their shadows can be seen, instead they are only shadows and thus that's the only thing that can be see.

You're right, probably better stealth because Hajime and Shia couldn't sense them until they appeared. There a proof of them using telepathy and having charisma and aura.

「There is no way anyone is here. It’s a ghost town no matter how you look――」

――Hou, human? A brat called out for invasion to the surface world, is this an adverse effect from that?

Unexpectedly there seemed to be a local person here.

――Kukuh, for the archduke to be outwitted……this is interesting

A different voice resounded. There was sneer within the voice.

――Don’t you all dare to interfere. They’re mine

There was another different voice. It was tremendously overbearing. Ordinary people would have their consciousness blown away instantly if they heard it.

The space flickered. Something like black mist gathered and an old man with spider lower body appeared. A humanoid with lion head seeped out. Flame suddenly burst up from empty air, and from inside it a huge wolf that breathed fire was created.

Other than them, from the inner part of the sanctuary, from the buildings inside it, strangely shaped existences flooded out with various method. Every single one of them looked terribly destructive, blasphemous, repulsive, and mysterious. And yet, they were vaguely clad in sweet air. ch345

It seem that each has a different element(fire, shadow...)

Illusion and shapeshifting is fine, memory manip should be changed to telepathy since reading the mind of someone falls under that power.

Ok

Possession and stats amp is fine, but I don't see any biological manip, and no, waking them to fight if they faint isn't biological manip.

Ok

Wind manip I think is fine? I'm not really sure if they can manipulate the air itself or just the harmful/special components of the wind of lamentation. Though just to make it clear so there is no misunderstanding, regardless of how is labeled at the end Unknown wouldn't be able to use that in a match unless they are at Hell or there's a way for it to gather at other world.

 Here

Actually they had tested it. A gate of hell was opened in a part of “Miniature Garden” and demon became able to materialize by bringing in the bloody wind. They also tried holding the “Aiko Masquerade Audition” while they were at it. Applicants were flooding in when the recruitment was advertised.ch483

I don't know if this was just a regular portal because Unknow was able to send the bloody wind to earth through the mirror gate

When he diagnosed himself, he was feeling strangely weary, his mind felt tired, and he felt a subtle pain around his lungs. The cause was surely the red mist that he slightly came into contact with just now.

There was no guarantee that he would be able to come back if he went to the world at the other side of the mirror. ch302

Their materialization is made from the wind of lamentation and here we have demons materilazing on Earth

――O king-, please answer-. Why, are you treating that kind of tiny human little girl as princess-

「You bastards-, as I thought you all are the pawns of demon-」

「You, you’re wrong nano~! Myuu doesn’t know about demon or anything! It’s true nano! It’s not a lie nano! Hell will freeze over before Myuu ever lie nano!」

Powerful greater demon that materialized with clear figure. And then, terrific number of demon swarms running rampant behind that greater demon and in the sky. ch319

Opening a gate to hell is enough. They could atleast get it because their body is made from it, right?

I remember ther was something about an artifact that direct any portal from hell into the vatican, and Hajime ending up there after opening a gate may could prove that they have CM type artifacts.

Unknown isn't at the level of the seven kings, he could maaaaybe be at the level of royalty, though weak royalty at most considering how those that we saw had significantly better feats as shown when they attacked Hajime and Shia, and that royalty in general didn't care much for him. So at that point you can't really scale him to their strength, so the best would be to just put him at unknown tier.

You're right, can't imagine Hajime and Shia having a problem with demons equal to him, although they weren't serious and the moment they start fighting it was one sided. BTW Aren't the 7DS already weaker then Hajime. I have a scan of Hajime one punching Lucifer.

That was the story that Hajime heard from “Lusifer~” and the white dragon after he beat both of them equally with his Soul Break Punch (A punch of his artificial arm that directly impacted the soul, created for use against Shia who was too solid. It was painful but it didn’t inflict any injury at all and could be said as a punch for gag). ch481

Apperently the dragons that Kouki was fighting in the fairy world could keep up with one of the 7Ds (equal to Ehit). Kouki's Ap is consistent.


Just to make sure, Can Unknown have Law and CM type 2 ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

When do we consider characters with conception an AE ?

Yue got stronger due to dragons creating a concept and not just them worshiping her. She is similar to Ehit.

Yue-sama was already in an unparalleled state, and then she obtained infinite magic power in addition. She became even more unmanageable after that. Even the dragon gods and god dragons whose power were increasing as time passed weren’t even allowed to counterattack. All the dragons were made to crawl on the ground together.

In addition because she became high from the special made drink, her sadistic nature was working in full forceand she even used soul magic to smash the pride of the dragons into small pieces.

As the result, somehow she got worshipped as god.

It was even reaching until a level of producing a new conception that was based on faith. That faith even magnified Yue’s power completely.

Just like when Hajime became like a demon god, Yue also became like the goddess of the dragons. ch425

Or do we take as multiple minds creating a new concept directed at Yue?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

From the spirit whale SS:

Interesting informations about the spirit whale

“You must be really weakened right now...”
It occurred to Myu that it might have used up the last of its power to call everyone here.
“Seek out they who can create, they who can scar the flow of time.”

Now, centuries or perhaps millennia later, the seal had been weakened to the point where it was nearly gone. If the lynchpin of the seal, the tower that the whale was fused with, broke, then the ancient evil horrors would regain their full strength and would start terrorizing people across all worlds and all times.

"Mister Whale’s been waiting this whole time for someone who can fix the seal to come! He said he needed really strong ‘Synergist-creators!’”

This abandoned capital didn’t actually exist anywhere within the real world. It had once stood where the sea they’d come from was, but the seal had transported it into a gap between dimensions. Basically, this whole space was a city-sized Treasure Trove.

And because the whale was also the product of that ancient civilization, it too possessed the power to transcend space and time. However, its power had been greatly weakened, so it could only transport people here once, and only people who visited the particular stretch of sea the capital had once been on. Meaning this was the only chance anyone would ever have to repair this seal. Restoration magic wouldn’t be enough to do it because a lot of the damage to the seal was too old to be realistically recovered. It would take more mana than anyone in the world possessed. Which was why the whale had needed to bring in people who could analyze the seal and rebuild it from the ground up, namely Synergists who could use creation magic. Not only that, Synergists with more skill and mana than either Hajime or Oscar possessed individually.

I don't get the waiting part.

This civilization created a city that exist out of space and time, the reason the whale was stuck in the ocean is because it was weakned. The whale is only an avatar of the city and there is a chance its range may not be limited to Tortus.

With "gap between dimension" are they referring to The interval of worlds ?

How they were summoned and sent back

Of course, Myu had no idea what the creature was, either. But it seemed she was sensing something from it. Something inside her was telling Myu that they couldn’t hurt it, and Hajime could tell from the earnest look in her eyes that she sincerely believed that. She just couldn’t express it in words. While Hajime was hesitating, their surroundings continued to transform. The whirlwind of mist sped up until they were surrounded by a wall of fog, making it look like they were in the eye of a storm. But the sky above them wasn’t clear, like it would be in a normal storm. It, too, was covered in swirling dense fog. But instead of sucking up the surrounding water, the fog hurricane was pushing it away, creating a crater in the ocean.

Myu closed her eyes for a second, then shouted loud enough to be heard over the wind and the dying screams of monsters, “We go home! Back to our original time!”

Suddenly, a whirlpool of light shot up from the tower. Hajime and the others were swallowed up by particles of light. Everyone present knew that this miraculous encounter in a strange city was coming to an end. Just likewhen they’d come here, everyone could feel their consciousness slipping away. It felt as though they were being dragged to the bottom of the ocean, again.

No time has passed

“Did we all just doze off or something?” Hajime muttered to himself. But that didn’t seem right. Looking down at his watch, he noticed almost no time had passed since the last thing he remembered. Hajime slowly got to a sitting position, careful not to push Remia or Myu off.

When did Hajime own a watch ?

Is there anything smurf about the whale ?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

BTW, do you think this mean demons eat souls?

There is mention of humans selling their souls to demons like Unknown.

Maybe? If you want to add it as a possible thing ok.

It's a mix of soud with telepathy that redult in their demonic whisper. If notice their speech line is different, similar when Tio speak in dragon mode. All demons use telepathy.

There is no telepathy there and the different symbols are there to represent how the voice sound weird, just because Tio has it and she talk with telepathy means that everyone with that symbol has it, even more when it's explicitly mentioned that there was sound reaching the ears.

You're right, probably better stealth because Hajime and Shia couldn't sense them until they appeared. There a proof of them using telepathy and having charisma and aura.

I don't really know what you are talking about, it's not a matter about stealth, it's a matter that they are only shadows in Eath. Hajime and Shia fought them in Hell where they aren't shadows, so there is no stealth from the shadow forms they have in Eath.

BTW Aren't the 7DS already weaker then Hajime. I have a scan of Hajime one punching Lucifer.

Apperently the dragons that Kouki was fighting in the fairy world could keep up with one of the 7Ds (equal to Ehit). Kouki's Ap is consistent.


Just to make sure, Can Unknown have Law and CM type 2 ?

They are still Ehit level

He can have both yes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

When do we consider characters with conception an AE ?

Yue got stronger due to dragons creating a concept and not just them worshiping her. She is similar to Ehit.

Or do we take as multiple minds creating a new concept directed at Yue?

When they are made from hit.

No, Yue thing is completely different from Ehit. Yue is naturally getting stronger from their conception, Ehit was unnaturally gathering it to evolve his soul, and he was a being without a physical body, only a non-corporeal body (his soul).

When did Hajime own a watch ?

Is there anything smurf about the whale ?

You think the dude who can create railguns, satellite, and such will measure time only by the position of the sun and moon? Of course he will have a watch, either one he made or one he founds.

No, nothing.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

There is no telepathy there and the different symbols are there to represent how the voice sound weird, just because Tio has it and she talk with telepathy means that everyone with that symbol has it, even more when it's explicitly mentioned that there was sound reaching the ears.

Souls have telepathy, maybe you could find something about this from Laus.

「――”Purification”!!」

「Sto- ――AAAAAAAAA-!?」

Midway Kaori’s scream changed tone as though it echoed directly inside their brain.

Of course it was like that. Kaori’s head slammed on the table and she laid there unmoving, while at the other side, there was the transparent figure of Kaori floating in the air like balloon. Furthermore she didn’t have the appearance of Noint, but her actual appearance.

『Just what are you doing Yue! My soul came off because of you!』SS Remenant of Myth ch1

Etemp and Netemp

Etemp and Netemp Mother who suddenly started to talk normally had exactly the same voice quality, on top of that their mouth didn’t move at all――or rather they had no mouth, so it was unknown which one of them was speaking. It felt like the one with more annoying component was Etemp though……

Anyway, this screwing around speech and conduct were truly that of Etemp & Netemp-san. This wasn’t caused by something like an apparition possessing them. There was no room for doubting about that.

「Could it be, you two were strangely quiet since coming to this world because……」

「Yes master. It feels like, our soul got the jitters. Then when we focused a bit and put some effort, there was a feeling like perhaps we can do it and then when we tried we really could talk.」ch 387

and here is another scan for demons

――Humans?

Seeing the other party flying on the sky,

「……」

「……」

Hajime and Shia were speechless. Or rather they were dumbfounded. The reason was because, the humanoid male? Female? They had fire bursting out from their whole body. Didn’t they feel hot?


Furthermore, their appearance was like gargoyle wearing armor. They looked really fiendish. And then, their voice was also rubbing the nerves the wrong way, it also sounded like a sweet whisper instead. The voice was indescribably strange and resounded directly inside the brain.

In any case, this was the first villager that the two encountered in this foreign world. No, it was unknown whether the other party was villager or not though. ch345

maybe its similar to when someone use soul magic to increase his persuasiveness but through telepathy. Could it be used for social influence ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Re-doing Conceptual Manipulation Justification - TenSura (LN)

This thread will be entirely focused around re-Justifying already accepted things to make their justifications more solid, and also due to a recent thread that said they should be "Obviously Downgraded" but did not had any solid arguments to back up its claims. Please keep the discussion civil...

vsbattles.com

But can we use similar argument to prove mana or soul energy iteracting with CM 1 and 2?

Concept magic can manifest in reality using magic spell or divinity stone(crystalized mana) this substance is the only thing that can handle Concept Magic unlike Ancient Magic that could be applied to anything. The soul is the origin of mana and will(concepts). Its also necessary to magic and ancient magic.

Or we can add concepts to their NPI.


How did Hajime turn his body into a CM1 artifact for Yue if divinity stone is the only thing that could handle it, there is also Tio's ancestor scale ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What do you think about this?

So the great trees authority is equal to concept magic but limited to that realm.

Hajime took out the compass from his pocket at the same time with Tio starting the past replay.

「……You child of man, have created something truly impressive.」

She must have seen through the extraordinary ability of the compass in one glance. Lutria’s feeling went past shock and into a bit of exasperation.

「I understand what it is you wish to ask. It is whether that object’s ability is superior compared to a goddess’s authority or not isn’t it?」

「Yeah, your opinion?」

「Though the nature is different, I can safely say that it is equal in the relevant world. ch491

It could also prove that there is different concepts for each realm.


And we have goddesses, elemental spirits and guardians whose power come from the tree.

「……Four, great spirits?」

The winged woman of the sacred peak who possessed the ability to rule over the weather, the spirit of four seasons who were in charge of the world’s climate, Leidia.

The great snake of the mountains and hills who possessed authority over the planet’s force itself, the spirit of creation who managed the land and magic particles, Grandia.

The centaur who possessed the authority of omnipresent space and time, the spirit of protection who managed the time and space, Fordia.

The maiden of the lake who possessed the authority of the transmigration of life, the spirit of life who managed the water and soul, Urdia.

The new spherical display projected the great tree Ua Alto and the great spirits who peacefully served it with respect from the four directions. The great tree stood far taller than even its current self with height that pierced the sky. Its branches and leaves were luscious and gentle light enveloped the whole thing. It was radiating sacredness that made it worthy to be described as god tree.

Yes, the four great spirits were existences that the great tree gave birth to in order to keep the world in balance. Remnant of Myth ch4

We have this statment about the gods souls being different. This is probably why Ehit group(A.M users) needed Urdia's authority to control the othet spirits.

「Still, it was something that happened through great stretch of time. It will take time for her to recover fully. Originally, soul is a forbidden domain that even god cannot easily interfere with. Not to mention she is a goddess of creation herself. Her soul is fundamentally different from human soul. No matter how powerful and transcendence you all are, be aware of the potentially fatal risk for a child of man to reach your hand toward such thing.」

Aularodde’s gaze moved toward Hajime, then Yue and others.

That was a warning from a goddess (even if formerly) who had protected innumerable life of her world for countless years.

It was exactly because Hajime and others had heard that warning before this that they didn’t keep trying to force Ua Alto’s recovery and chose to ask other goddess. ch 459

Are all authority that come from the great trees equal to concept magic ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

How to cook a dragon