Culex Upgrade

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

NOTE: This is just an upgrade for Culex, NOT Mario and co. I just wanted to get that out of the way.

More Support for Culex having control over time and space
Culex was stated on page 64 of the guide booklet to be the Master of Time and Space. Also, in his Japanese text, he stated that he holds time from its beginning to its end and holds the power over creation in the Marioverse.

The latter statement has been debated, since Culex has supposedly made claims about being lower-dimensional, but the statement from the guide booklet provides more evidence for Culex being Low 2-C.

Debunking his "lower-dimensional" statements
Also, the argument that, because Culex said that the power of the third dimension is great he's only Tier 11, is very faulty. Yet, the game bragged about being 3-D because it was one of the first games to be designed and rendered on fancy computers.

"Take an exclusive, sneak peek at Mario's amazing, new, 3-D adventure in this month's epic center."

"The most striking thing about Super Mario RPG is the stunning 3-D scenes in three-quarter perspective."

When Super Mario RPG first came out, the big deal was that the graphics weren't hand-drawn anymore, but rather rendered in 3-D with fancy computers--which was the hot stuff back then. The Japanese version played around with this fact as more so a theme, not to be taken literally. I mean, why else would he hold time itself, the fourth dimension, if he were a lower dimensional being? It's even stated that Culex is stated as the master of space-time. Therefore, it makes more sense for to accept that he's higher dimensional.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

I agree A LOT.

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

Hopefully others will agree too.

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

Culex is a 2nd dimensional entity. That is undeniable as it is constantly explicitly stated by himself. Yeah the joke/gimmick is that Mario RPG is a 3-D game and Final Fantasy was 2-D, but that doesn't somehow negate the fact that Culex is 2nd dimensional.

However of course he is not Tier 11, as he shows able to fight 3rd dimensional beings and has some minor degree of 4th dimensional hax. He's a lower dimensional character with higher dimensional power, just like how there are numerous 3rd dimensional characters that are Tier 2.

Though I'd prefer something far more solid and less vague than a guidebook statement that he's "a master of space and time" before upgrading him to such a high levels. Are there actually any feats or more explicit statements that he is capable of destroying/creating an entire universe in a single attack? Or is there just more vague statements of him having a lot of space-time hax?

Also to say that Culex's constant statements of being 2nd dimensional are all hyperbole yet one vague line of having "power over all creation" that's demonstrably untrue (since he loses and later admits that Mario and the 3rd dimension's power is too great for him is to be taken as 100% fact is just inconsistent in my opinion.

Dark649 · Sep 23, 2017

We already talked and debunked many times this topic.

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

If those 2-D statements are valid, then I don't see how the statements of having control over space-time aren't. And I think some have argued that the 2-D statements make Culex Tier 11. That's why I wanted to adress it.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

@Paleomario66

1. I never said Culex didn't have control over space-time. I said Culex having space-time hax doesn't equate to him being capable of destroying an entire universe in a single attack.

2. Culex having "power over all creation" is demonstrably untrue and even later admitted by Culex himself to be untrue. It's nothing like his constant statements of being 2nd dimensional, which again I don't think those make him Tier 11.

WeeklyBattles · Sep 23, 2017

ArceusBowser44 said:
Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

We dont take WoG if it contradicts what's shown in the game

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

What contradicts it? Culex's 2-D statements only show that he's 2-Dimensional, not that he has that level of power or even 3-D power.

Promestein · Sep 23, 2017

The statements of his control over space and time are so vague that they don't mean anything on their own.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

WeeklyBattles said:
ArceusBowser44 said:

Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

Click to expand...

We dont take WoG if it contradicts what's shown in the game

But Mario always had been inconsistent. In this case, it would be better to take WoG, since it's a better source in terms of statements

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

ArceusBowser44 said:
Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

Did you just decide to not actually read my comments before responding to them condescendingly? I never, ever denied the guidebook statement that Culex has control over space-time and said many times that I believe it to be true. Just that I don't think this statement equates to being able to destroy an entire universe in one attack.

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

Exactly. Mario has no canon and very loose continuity in the first place.

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
ArceusBowser44 said:

Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

Click to expand...

Did you just decide to not actually read my comments before responding to them condescendingly? I never, ever denied the guidebook statement that Culex has control over space-time and said many times that I believe it to be true. Just that I don't think this statement equates to being able to destroy an entire universe in one attack.

Either way, we should add Space-Time Manipulation to his profile then.

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

Promestein said:
The statements of his control over space and time are so vague that they don't mean anything on their own.

This exactly.

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

Paleomario66 said:
Either way, we should add Space-Time Manipulation to his profile then.

I'm completely fine with that.

AquaWaifu · Sep 23, 2017

WHY is this on the versus thread.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Sep 23, 2017

Here's a question, we use strictly the Japanese dialogue due to massive changes between jpn and eng correct?

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

@Aqua I moved it

@J-Man I think the original source material should take precedence.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
ArceusBowser44 said:

Ryuakama: No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please

Click to expand...

Did you just decide to not actually read my comments before responding to them condescendingly? I never, ever denied the guidebook statement that Culex has control over space-time and said many times that I believe it to be true. Just that I don't think this statement equates to being able to destroy an entire universe in one attack.

No, i decided to read your comment and then i tought and that IMO WoG>Culex statements

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

If you read my comments, you'd know I never distrusted the WoG statement and said that it was true. So what is your point then? I agree with the statement of Culex having control over space and time, despite what you insisted upon.

Also Culex being 2nd dimensional and having 4th dimensional hax aren't mutually exclusive. Characters can have powers of higher dimensions than their own being.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

What i was trying to say is that there are MANY things that say that Culex isn't a 2dimensional being (paleo's reasonings) and Myamoto himself stated via the manual that Culex holds the power of the universe.

So, i don't see why Low 2-C Culex isn't a thing...

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

"No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please"

^ You directly said that I don't believe in the WoG, manual statement which is not true if you go back and read what I said.

Anyways Paleo's reasoning basically boils down to "The joke is that the game's 3-D and Final Fantasy is 2-D" which while true, does not negate the fact that Culex is explicitly a second dimensional entity. The lore making a clever reference doesn't mean that the lore is untrue.

Culex being able to fight 3rd dimensional characters and having 4th dimensional hax also doesn't mean he isn't 2nd dimensional. It just means he isn't Tier 11 and has higher dimensional powers. Just like the numerous 3-D characters on this site with 4-D power.

I highly doubt Miyamoto himself writes every little section of those simple instruction manuals. But even then, a statement of Culex having control over space-time =/= Culex being able to destroy or create an entire universe plus its space-time continuum in a single attack.

This is why Low 2-C Culex isn't a thing.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Sep 23, 2017

If ya can prove Miyamoto said it I'd be obligated to agree, I ain't gonna go against Mr. Nintendo himself but I highly doubt he wrote that snippet.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
"No. So, you trust Culex's words, but you don't trust Word of God/Canon manual. Please"
^ You directly said that I don't believe in the WoG, manual statement which is not true if you go back and read what I said.

Anyways Paleo's reasoning basically boils down to "The joke is that the game's 3-D and Final Fantasy is 2-D" which while true, does not negate the fact that Culex is explicitly a second dimensional entity. The lore making a clever reference doesn't mean that the lore is untrue.

Culex being able to fight 3rd dimensional characters and having 4th dimensional hax also doesn't mean he isn't 2nd dimensional. It just means he isn't Tier 11 and has higher dimensional powers. Just like the numerous 3-D characters on this site with 4-D power.

I highly doubt Miyamoto himself writes every little section of those simple instruction manuals. But even then, a statement of Culex having control over space-time =/= Culex being able to destroy or create an entire universe plus its space-time continuum in a single attack.

This is why Low 2-C Culex isn't a thing.

But the manual literally says holds the power of the marioverse..

I mean, Myamoto isn't stupid, i don't think that he wrote a thing just because he wanted to.

I know that Culex isn't 2nd dimensional. Culex's statements are also kind of vague and irrelevant, as the manual and myamoto say otherwise anyway

TheJ-ManRequiem · Sep 23, 2017

Ya can still be 2d and be tier 3 or something, same reason why someone like Heaven DIO is 2-B, likely 2-A despite being 3d, which is basically the same as a tier 11 being tier high 3-A.

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

"But the manual literally says holds the power of the marioverse.."

No it didn't. It said that Culex is a "master of time and space". Not that he "literally holds the power of the marioverse".

It's Miyamoto not "Myamoto". And he doesn't write the manuals.

No they aren't. They are quite explicit in that he is second dimensional and he constanly describes his body in the way that the 2nd spacial dimension works. Along with repreated saying that he isn't 3rd dimensional.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
"But the manual literally says holds the power of the marioverse.."
No it didn't. It said that Culex is a "master of time and space". Not that he "literally holds the power of the marioverse".

It's Miyamoto not "Myamoto". And he doesn't write the manuals.

No they aren't. They are quite explicit in that he is second dimensional and he constanly describes his body in the way that the 2nd spacial dimension works. Along with repreated saying that he isn't 3rd dimensional.

Ah, really?

About the other things, ok

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

That's Culex's own statement of having power over "all creation". Not the guidebook or Miyamoto's. I thought you didn't trust Culex's own statements about himself?

And again, Culex having power over the whole Marioverse is not only demonstrably untrue but later admitted by Culex himself to be untrue.

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
That's Culex's own statement of having power over "all creation". Not the guidebook or Miyamoto's. I thought you didn't trust Culex's own statements about himself?
And again, Culex having power over the whole Marioverse is not only demonstrably untrue but later admitted by Culex himself to be untrue.

Lol. Honestly, i never read the link, however i once heard that that was Miyamoto's statement about Culex power.

But...if you take into account Culex's statement "I am impressed by the power of the 3rd dimension", then why don't you guys take into account the Culex's statement "I am a universal god"?

ArceusBowser44 · Sep 23, 2017

Ryukama said:
That's Culex's own statement of having power over "all creation". Not the guidebook or Miyamoto's. I thought you didn't trust Culex's own statements about himself?
And again, Culex having power over the whole Marioverse is not only demonstrably untrue but later admitted by Culex himself to be untrue.

Culex never stated that what he said was unture. he was simply impressed by the power of the 3rd dimension, but again, taking this statement into account=we should also take the other statement into account

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

ArceusBowser44 said:
Lol. Honestly, i never read the link, however i once heard that that was Miyamoto's statement about Culex power.

But...if you take into account Culex's statement "I am impressed by the power of the 3rd dimension", then why don't you guys take into account the Culex's statement "I am a universal god"?

That's the problem. You keep responding to things without reading them. You claimed I didn't agree with the WoG statement, despite the fact that if one were to read my comments I did. You claimed that a link you now admitted didn't even read was a WoG, manual statement despite that not being true at all either.

Please just actually read things before making claims about them.

Culex never says "I am a universal god". He says he has "power that rules all creation" which again, is not only demonstrably untrue yet even admitted by Culex himself to be untrue later on.

The real question is why do you want to discard these nonstop statements of Culex being 2nd dimensional that have never been proven untrue, yet you want to use one of Culex's statements that has been proven to be untrue and later admitted by Culex to be untrue?

Paleomario66 · Sep 23, 2017

When does Culex admit that he's wrong about ruling all creation?

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

ArceusBowser44 said:
Culex never stated that what he said was unture. he was simply impressed by the power of the 3rd dimension, but again, taking this statement into account=we should also take the other statement into account

Paleomario66 said:
When does Culex admit that he's wrong about ruling all creation?

1. Culex lost to Mario and the cast, who are far, far from the strongest people in the Marioverse nor able to control the Marioverse. Hence this statement has first been proven directly to be untrue.

2. "Love, friendship, joy... The power for hope and peace.... It appears this strength is too much for me."

"The power said to far surpass the flunctuations of evil."

"Until I someday gain the power of the third dimension."

^ All statements from Culex conceding that Mario's power and the 3rd dimension's power is much higher than his own. This directly contradicts his previous statement that he has power over all creation. So yes, he does later admit that this one final statement people have to hold on to is untrue. On top of the direct proof it's untrue.

Ryukama · Sep 23, 2017

Also even adressing the statement like this is still being very generous. He says that he "rules" all of creation. Not that he can directly control it or instantly destroy/create it. Ruling means having authority over. Someone who "rules" a country doesn't have the ability to warp or instantly destroy it. Or at least, you need proof that they can before asserting such.

Metal875 · Sep 23, 2017

Just wanna say something...

Culex never says he didn't actually have those powers. He says that he now understands that the power of the 3rd dimension and the power of love is too much for even him.

Even so, his statements referring to his body being flat and 2-D can still be written off as the two companies playing with anesthetics.

"Why do you possess thickness? Why do you have such solidity? I am made of the power of evil. My form is depicted on naught but a flat surface."

^This very statement your referring to can, again, still be written off as anesthetics, since this game was the first rendered in 3-D. It's playing with it as a theme, because before this, all the games were a flat surface in 2-D with, as Culex states, no solidity. All flat. Super Mario RPG changed that, and thus, the game played around with how it jumped from 2-D graphics to 3-D graphics. Speaking of which, the "fluctuations" he speaks of that come from the 3rd dimension could also be translated as "waves" or "undulations," which simply furthers it being anesthetics.

Thus, Culex stating he has power over creation and time is not inconsistent, nor was it admitted to be wrong. And the manual's statement simply backs up Culex's.

As a side note, why doesn't Culex have infinite speed? He is literally present within a dimensional rift devoid of time and space.

"On this spot, I feel and resonate with fluctuations emitted from a dimensional rift."

Dark649 · Sep 23, 2017

We do not accept upgrades basing on these and the thing that characters in voids without time and space have infinite speedis was decided to be not valid.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Sep 23, 2017

Is Culex's sprite 2d or 3d in game?

Dark649 · Sep 23, 2017

Culex Upgrade

Resurrection Lily

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