Tier 2 Mario?

According to this blog , Mario has consistent Tier 2 feats.

Opinions/thoughts?

Bump

Um, not sure about that source, right off the bat it sounds like the first feat is already misinterpreting what is being stated.

Heck, it has defeating the Angry Sun as a tier 4 feat.

And Chakron being considered as a tier 2 feat despite him not being the embodiment of the universe.

Didn't Mario defeating Dreamy Bowser was a outlier?

Newendigo said:

Didn't Mario defeating Dreamy Bowser was a outlier?

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Yes.

So creating numerous stars is Low 2-C now?

This supernova is High 4-C...

Tier 1 Dimentio, 1-B Mario via being superior to Dimentio.

Wish of everyone in the planet = 5-B(?)

@Newen

It was because he comparable to normal Bowser

And if we scaled him to Dreamy Bowser then it would mean base Bowser is as powerful as Dreamy Bowser

Anonimoe7875 said:

So creating numerous stars is Low 2-C now?

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No, it can range to 4-A depending on the number, also the High 2-A stuff is too silly to consider.

Yes, but the blog consider it tier 2 for some reason...

I will talk with Dino Black about this.

The blog seems to be either purely out of context feats, some (few) legit feats, and lots of wank.

I'd suggest not to use it.

This is some Mario wank,if i have ever seem one,good lord.

Okay, I have A LOT to say here. Please, admins, don't close this thread until I've said what I want. I know it sounds selfish, but please. I'm going to be making the comment now...

Seems legit. I'd give him a Low 2-C.

I kinda agree with the tier 3 in smg since its similar to defeating bosses empowered by power stars

Isn't Mario already tier 3?

I have one request: that we don't use that blog. I made it awhile back, and I've lost myself in updating it. Now, I only update my Mario profile. It's very similar to the ones made around here, so it should be easy to read. This is a request I have: use the profile I made for Mario instead of that blog. That's one thing I ask.

Newendigo said:

I will talk with Dino Black about this.

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There's no point. Don't bug him please. I consider DRB and Ryu friends, and I also consider them extremely well-rounded experts on the franchise. I have talked to them on numerous accounts about what I believe, and the three of us have respectfully disagreed. They have even been respectful enough to not call me a wanker. There's no more point to it--he's shared his concerns, I've shared mine, and we got nowhere. I do not want to bug him anymore, nor do I want to create anymore upgrade threads on this wiki. Thus, Random, please, tell me before you use something of mine for an upgrade. It's very picky, I know, and honestly, I'm being a self-demanding douche for asking you of that. So, if you want, you can continue to make upgrade threads using my stuff. But if you can, please, for me, don't.

I'm sorry for sounding rude thus far. Anyway, onto defending my points.

First, I'm going to clear up what I do and what I don't believe, since that's been stretched a lot already.

I DO believe:
Creating a realm from nothing that contains countless stars is Universe level+.

Why? There's the old law that "space cannot exist without time." You create space, you create time. If this realm is not layered upon the existing spatial fabric, and is entirely separate, then it's creating a space-time continuum. If it has countless stars, then the author was, more than likely, aiming for it to be a universe. Think: authors usually do not aim for a realm to be some obscure size, especially if nothing is stated. Heck, the main verses for characters are assumed as universes when, more often that not, it is NEVER called one. Why do we do it for the main verse, but not separate realms? I'm sure you guys have some explanation--you almost always do. But this is not about you guys being wrong--far be it--this is about what I have come to believe.

I do NOT believe:
Creating several stars is Universe level+. I believe that, should you create a separate realm that is obviously not aimed at being a universe (like only containing a planet, or a single star rather than a starry sky), that it is High Universe level for creating a portion of a space-time continuum that's less than universal in scale.

I DO believe:
Being infinitely superior to someone is grounds for an infinite power jump, and that complete invulnerability to anything and everything whatsoever is also grounds for such.

I do NOT believe:
Simply being superior is grounds for an infinite power jump.

I DO believe:
If the name suggests something, and nothing contradicts it, it can be taken as such.

I do NOT believe:
Contradicted names can be taken as such.

I DO believe:
Wishes in Mario contain power, not just range. So yes, wishes from the planet = 5-B.

I do NOT believe:
In doing so for any franchise with no evidence of wishes containing worth-while power.

I don't care about the concerns for "restoring the kingdom from ruin," the Angry Sun nor Chakron. This is what I'm concerned about: this thread will get nowhere, I'll get insulted even more, and no one'll back me up, so tell me: what exactly is the point in continuing such nonsense?

If you choose to, close this. If you seriously think my work has any worth, go ahead and talk about it. I would like to talk about it, too, but I'll see what people believe first.

And while I'm here, by all means, ask me questions should you feel the need to. I'd happy to explain my thought processes. But, first, I'll see what people believe.

Why is conquering something a feat when some IRL people have conquered countries and not be country level?

Well we only assume feats like that as 4-A, so you should do another thread.

Proof Paper Mario is infinitely superior to Dimentio?

Do you have a source for 5-B wishes?

Nobody said it's just range but since we can't quantify it properly...

Metal+ Sorry, but I already Informed him about the blog, I not agaisnt you at all, but a have seen this kind of things before, and never end very well.


I will stay neutral about this.

@Metal dont you think thats a little...you know...overflow?

Cropfist said:

Why is conquering something a feat when some IRL people have conquered countries and not be country level?

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You ask a good question, and honestly, I'll admit, my claims could be knocked down depending on what you believe.

What I believe is that conquering, based on its definitions, always require some sort of exertion of power, and that there are two versions of conquering. I'll call them "Gradual" and "Destructive."

Gradual: More often that not, knights from folktales conquer kingdoms by slaying the knights that protect said kingdom and taking the throne. That's gradual.

Destructive: Somewhat similar to how Darth Koopa did in the Super Mario Bros. Super Show. He conquered the universe by destroying, first, the Mushroom Colonists Planet, second, the Milky Way, and finally said, in a week, the universe would be the Koopaverse. There is the way where you kill and take the land, and there's the one where you are required to physically destroy everything and "recreate" it in your own image.

Anonimoe7875 said:

Well we only assume feats like that as 4-A, so you should do another thread.

Proof Paper Mario is infinitely superior to Dimentio?

Do you have a source for 5-B wishes?

Nobody said it's just range but since we can't quantify it properly...

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1. Yes, I know that. And I can understand why, as Ryu has explained. However, I do not wish to make another thread. I believe this thread will be the last time I express any concerns I have, because I honestly feel pretty stupid after... however many threads I've made have been rejected. I have been doing this hobby for years and I feel I've made no progress; and no offense to anyone on this site, but I don't believe even a thread like that would be given any mind, either.

2. It's on my Mario and Dimentio profiles. Mario isn't infinitely superior to Super Dimentio, but rather, Super Dimentio is infinitely above the base form characters, who are all equal to The Void. If you wish, I'd love to collect all the evidence of such into one comment for you. I'll post it next.

3. You mean a source for the wishes having power? Bowser's wish to destroy Mario had power, the game goes on about how the Star Rod, granter of all wishes, makes Bowser's sheer life force stronger. And at the end, the power of Peach's wishes overpowered the Star Rod.

And no, you didn't say that. And I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth. I'm an unstable person from time to time. I am truly sorry.

@Newendigo: If that's the case, I guess we'll just have to go through this all the way. It's okay, I'm fine with that.

@MarioFan: Yeah, I suppose so. I've written longer, honestly. Like I said--unstable.

Typo alert: in number two to Anonimoe, I said the base characters were equal to the Chaos Heart. That's false--they're equal to The Void.

2. If you have the time to do so.

3. Well we would still need proof they can maintain 5-B power, also do you know Star Rod tier?

2. First off, as we know, the Marioverse has mentioned and stated that it runs off of String Theory in Wario: Master of Disguise, what with String Theory Soup. I feel as though this item is very important and trustworthy for many reasons... one, it was stated by a third-person omniscient narrator, meaning it's a solid fact. Two, it's definitely canon since it's canon in the game's story that Wario steals and keeps all the treasures he stole. And finally, because it is implied to have been extremely important in the game. Not only was it hidden away in museums, locked in a puzzle-locked treasure chest, and that security was patrolling it at all times... I mean, between those three things, I personally feel it's extremely reliable. And yes, while the Marioverse does not commonly dabble in any dimensions aside from 2-D, 3-D, and 4-D, we can't deny that the Marioverse has dabbled in such a topic to begin with. Which proves, at least a little bit, that such a thing can realistically exist in Mario.

It states that the secrets of the Marioverse can be obtained by drinking this soup--and, as you can see, these secrets relate to String Theory due to its name.

And while some would argue that Super Paper Mario's highly controversial, "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All worlds, all dimensions." refers to the common synonym universe for dimension, there is plenty pointing otherwise. Dimension D is the piece of evidence to say they mean universe. What says it means space? Well, Merlon stating that The Void is a hole in the dimensional fabric of space, Bestovius being referred to as a dimensional governor that gives out the dimensional technique, said dimensional technique being one that flips the user between spatial dimensions, and, well, sense itself. Why? "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All universes, all universes..." < I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. And besides, it consumes all existence and all dimensions. So, as long as dimensions mathematical dimensions exist within Mario, they'd be erased. And we see that it has mathematical dimensions because of String Theory Soup.

To show you The Void's consumption statement: The Void consumes all worlds, all dimensions, all timelines (by making it as if those worlds and dimensions never existed at all) and possibilities (erases the future, allowing (Super) Dimentio to create his own).

Here's some direct quotes to show they're talking about mathematical dimensions:

Merlon said: [URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_IjEPiYXhE&t=15m4s']It is a hole in the very [B]dimensional fabric of space![/B] Such a strange phenomenon...[/URL] [quote="Merlon said: [URL='https://youtu.be/A_IjEPiYXhE?t=21m17s']The Light Prognosticus foretells the hero will meet a [B]dimension governor.[/B] And from him said:

The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it... unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed. The hero with the power of eight Pure Hearts will rise to this task.

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Now, please recall that Merloo wrote the Light Prognosticus. And he is saying that not even he can stop this prophecy. Of course, he controls dimensions--so Super Dimentio clearly has to be beyond his reach of power--a twelfth dimensional being.

Believe it or not, this is actually backed up by something else. And that something else is backed up be a quote from a page on this very wiki.

Death Manipulation"] The death of the manipulation, as a concept, open wide opportunities. With this, you can instantly both kill an object and on the contrary, make it immortal, depriving it of the concept of death. In addition, you can kill even conceptually immortal beings, if your concept is stronger than the concept of a target. [/quote]
So... Queen Jaydes. Gotta love her, right?

Now, I'm proposing that Queen Jaydes has power over the concepts of life and death, and I'll be matching what she's done to our definition of the manipulation of life and death concepts.

Not only can she instantly kill Paper Mario in a game over (the one I'm proposing is 11-D), but she can also bring Luvbi back during the post-game, even though such a Nimbi never existed, and was merely a persona of the Pure Heart. And while I do believe it's PIS she could do this, she still restored life to the Pure Heart.

So, she has the power to both instantly kill a target and, on the contrary, make it immortal.

Now, she stands no chance against Super Dimentio--according to our page itself, in order to not be able to kill someone, they simply must have a stronger concept.

And what's a stronger concept than higher dimensionality? Merloo supports it, and Jaydes supports Merloo. Heck, the Pure Hearts support it, as they have infinite power when in comparison to normal characters. This is all very consistent--and, it provides great reasoning for why the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts were needed. Everything just... adds up.

Finally, to finish why 11-D base Paper Mario characters is valid.

As we know, Paper Mario tanked The Void. Of course, that thing was consuming all eleven dimensions.

But, that's not all that's important here. Mainly, look at Paper Mario's condition after The Void.


As you can tell, Paper Mario has been blown back to Flipside--another world, and is temporarily unconscious.

Now, let's take a look at his condition after Dimentio blew him away--to the Underwhere.


And here, Dimentio has blown Paper Mario to the Underwhere--another world, and he is temporarily unconscious.

The similarities between said feats cannot be ignored--Dimentio clearly matched The Void's power, for what it's worth. All four of the heroes can do battle with Dimentio equally, thus, they all scale to The Void; this is why they're High 1-C in base form. And with their hearts, they're Low 1-B.

Everything is supported and cleanly backed up. I would also say that, since The Void consumes all dimensions and that there's eleven, then the Paper Mario characters should get Immeasurable speed as well--for both their base forms and with their hearts, and also because... you know, they're naturally transcendental to a normal space-time.

Finally, to address why I believe String Theory makes it 11-D rather than 10-D or 26-D.

String Theory is divided into different theories. None are referred to simply as "String Theory." Allow me: Prior to 1995, theorists believed that there were five consistent versions of Superstring Theory (type I, type IIA, type IIB, and two versions of heterotic string theory). This understanding changed in 1995 when Edward Witten suggested that the five theories were just special limiting cases of an eleven-dimensional theory called M-Theory (the name behind it is for "membrane," or "mother of all string theories." Any version of string theory, by default, runs with M-theory). Thus, there are five versions of String Theory, all of which are connected to M-Theory. In Bosonic String Theory, space-time is 26-dimensional, while in Superstring Theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-Theory it is 11-dimensional. Between these three, so we don't wank and so we don't downplay, M-Theory is the safest (and most likely) case the game had been referring to. And considering it didn't specify, simply calling it "String Theory," we would go by the safest and most likely case. In this case, M-Theory. Not to mention that Superstring Theory goes off of M-Theory either way, so we'd need specific statements to call it 10-D instead of 11-D. Which we do not have, unfortunately. This is why I place Mario characters at 11-dimensional rather than 10-dimensional or 26-dimensional.

Finally, I have one more thing to say. Even if we deny String Theory, then The Void is still 2-B. Thus, base characters are 2-B, and thus, Super Dimentio and those who scale are 2-A. The "infinite power" Pure Hearts are backed up by the Prophecies themselves saying that Merloo and Jaydes, two who have supreme powers in this verse, are powerless to stop it.

Also, a lot of Dimentio's powers and backstory is not on his profile. Do you mind if I post that, too?

3. I'm unsure of what you mean by maintain, unless you mean it needs to be consistent? Also, here's my Star Rod profile, if you need to see it. Should I post the evidence of why I believe the Dream Depot is 2-A?

Ohno, bby, what are you doing.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Ohno, bby, what are you doing.

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I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong? If that's the case, I'll stop.

I already expressed that I didn't even want to go through this again, so I really don't mind.

I dont understand where this is headed...

NotAMarioFan(lol) said:

I dont understand where this is headed...

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Honestly, I'm just adding to the conversation whatever I can to help others understand me better. If anything I'm doing will cause conflict, I really don't want to continue.

Just one other thing, though. It has nothing to do with Mario's tier.

Why aren't Galaxy Bowser and the Grand Stars a solid Low 2-C?

Bowser tanked the collapse of his Galaxy Reactor, which was stated to threaten the very fabric of the universe whilst extremely fatigued. Bowser's Galaxy Reactor is repeatedly called a universal threat, solidifying it at this tier.

Throughout the prima, the Galaxy Reactor is described as threatening the universe.

"Mario must restore order to the universe."

"Bowser's reactor released a new force into the universe."

Of course, there's the above linked statements, where it's even stated to be able to collapse the universe, create a new one, and then, of course, there's the classic "threat to the fabric of the universe" statement. Looking back through the game, I find that there's nothing that implies a 3-C at all except one thing--the Lumas being inferior to the Grand Stars. Why are we dragging their tiers down to the Lumas for being superior to them, when Low 2-C is superior to 3-C? And crud, these "universal threat" statements aren't only present in the Prima Guide, but in the actual game, too. The final mission in the game is called "The Fate of the Universe."

Not galaxy.

Universe.

Clearly, the Galaxy Mario characters are more solid in Low 2-C. At least to me.

Some admin will get to this in the meantime (mario defeating bosses empowered by grand stars) seem fine in my book

>Super Paer Mario.

Ya got a shortened version of that wall of text?

Im interested.

TheJ-ManRequiem said:

>Super Paer Mario.

Ya got a shortened version of that wall of text?

Im interested.

Click to expand...

Sure. Gimme one sec.

To summarize might lose a few points here and there, but I'll try to fit this into a smaller area and still keep the info.

Let's begin with String Theory Soup. I feel as though this item is very important and trustworthy for many reasons. One, it was stated by a third-person omniscient narrator. Two, it's canon because Wario stealing and keeping the treasures in this game is part of story. And finally, because it was important. It was locked in a puzzle-locked chest patrolled by security inside of a museum. With that said, it seems reliable. And yeah, it's true the Marioverse only dabbles in dimensions with 2-D, 3-D and 4-D, but the fact it dabbles in a topic at all says something.

It says that the secrets of the Marioverse can be revealed by drinking it, and the name implies that this houses String Theory.

Next, let's talk about, "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All worlds, all dimensions." Does this refer to universe or mathematical? Dimension D is the piece of evidence to say they mean universe. What says it means space? Merlon stating that The Void is a hole in the dimensional fabric of space, Bestovius being referred to as a dimensional governor that gives out the dimensional technique, said dimensional technique being one that flips the user between spatial dimensions, and, well, sense itself. "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All universes, all universes..." < That just doesn't make sense. And besides, it consumes all existence and all dimensions. So, as long as mathematical dimensions exist within Mario, they'd be erased. String Theory Soup says those exist, too.

To show you The Void's consumption statement: The Void consumes all worlds, all dimensions, all timelines (by making it as if those worlds and dimensions never existed at all) and possibilities (erases the future, allowing (Super) Dimentio to create his own).

Here's some direct quotes to show they're talking about mathematical dimensions:

It is a hole in the very dimensional fabric of space! Such a strange phenomenon...

The Light Prognosticus foretells the hero will meet a dimension governor. And from him, the hero will learn the dimensional technique.

That technique was the "Dimensional Flip," which can slip between spatial dimensions.

To apply, let's talk about Merloo.

This sage was very wise and is even said to have written the Light Prognosticus... He was also a great magician who could control dimensions...

Keep note of emboldened statements.

The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it... unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed. The hero with the power of eight Pure Hearts will rise to this task.

Quoted from the Light Prognosticus. Remember, Merloo wrote the Prophecy, and says he can't stop it. In order to be powerless against Super Dimentio, the latter must be outside his realm of power--a twelfth dimensional being.

To back it up... Death Manipulation basically says that, in order to control its concepts, you must be able to instantly kill a target and make it immortal. You can only be stopped should the enemy have a stronger concept.

Let's propose Jaydes has power of life and death concepts. Let's first match definitions and feats...

She can instantly kill Paper Mario, she can also bring Luvbi back during the post-game, even though such a Nimbi never existed, and was merely a persona of the Pure Heart. And while I do believe it's PIS she could do this, she still restored life to the Pure Heart.

So, she has the power to both instantly kill a target and, on the contrary, make it immortal.

Now, she is powerless to Super Dimentio. With our page in mind, we know that Super Dimentio has to have a stronger concept.

Higher dimensionality is a much stronger concept. Merloo supports it, and Jaydes supports Merloo. The Pure Hearts support it too, as they have infinite power when in comparison to normal characters. This is all very consistent--and, it provides great reasoning for why the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts were needed. Everything's accounted for.

Finally, to finish why 11-D base Paper Mario characters is valid.

As we know, Paper Mario tanked The Void. Of course, that thing was consuming all eleven dimensions.

Now, look at Paper Mario's condition after The Void hit.


As you can tell, Paper Mario has been blown back to Flipside--another world, and is temporarily unconscious.

Now, his condition after Dimentio's attack.


And here, Dimentio has blown Paper Mario to the Underwhere--another world, and he is temporarily unconscious.

The similarities between the two occurrences are undoubtedly very similar, thus Dimentio would scale to The Void's power, the Heroes of Light would scale to Dimentio, being High 1-C, and the users of the Pure and Chaos Hearts would be Low 1-B.

I would also say that, since The Void consumes all dimensions, then the Paper Mario characters should get Immeasurable speed as well--for both their base forms and with their hearts, due to being naturally transcendent of normal space-time.

Finally... String Theory is divided into five theories. None are simply "String Theory." Prior to 1995, theorists believed that there were five consistent versions of Superstring Theory. This understanding changed in 1995 when Edward Witten suggested that the five theories were just limiting cases of an eleven-dimensional theory called M-Theory. Thus, there are five versions of String Theory, all of which are connected to M-Theory. In Bosonic String Theory, space-time is 26-dimensional, while in Superstring Theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-Theory it is 11-dimensional. Between these three, so we don't wank and so we don't downplay, M-Theory is the safest and most likely case the game had been referring to. And considering it didn't specify, simply calling it "String Theory," we would go by the safest and most likely case. In this case, M-Theory. Not to mention that Superstring Theory goes off of M-Theory either way, so we'd need specific statements to call it 10-D instead of 11-D. Which we do not have, unfortunately. That's why it's 11-D rather than 10-D or 26-D.

Even if we deny String Theory, then The Void is still 2-B. Thus, base characters are 2-B, and thus, Super Dimentio and those who scale are 2-A. Unless you believe in 2-A Dream Depot, which would then cause their base forms to be 2-A and Super forms to be High 2-A. The "infinite power" Pure Hearts are backed up by the Prophecies themselves saying that Merloo and Jaydes, two who have supreme powers in this verse, are powerless to stop it.

Sorry if this was still a wall. I really didn't want to cut out any important info.

I was mostly asking what you were proposing but meh, Jaydee having life and death manip and Dimento having resistances to that should be fine though, I agree with that.

Oh, okay. Well...

Dimentio, The Void and the Heroes of Light: High 1-C

Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts, as well as users of them: Low 1-B

Make a CRT for it (check to see if it already exists though), im sure Cal or someone will post there.

But the death and life manip and Dimentio having resistances to that I'm in agreement with and should be added.

Just from a quick glance I can tell you guys this won't be accepted. There's a lot wrong here.

Oh probably, hence why im not commenting on it, the only thing I can say for certain is the thing already said i agree with.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Just from a quick glance I can tell you guys this won't be accepted. There's a lot wrong here.

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Well, I hope we can just agree to disagree with it in the end. I don't mind it getting rejected. But I feel like I'm being one-sided by addressing Tier 1 Mario only. How about some Tier 1 Sonic?

Apparently, a dimensional matrix exists in the Sonicverse. A dimensional matrix is a membrane, or, connected to M-Theory. Which is 11-D. We know Professor Von Schlemmer is reliable because he's been studying the Genesis Portals--old remnants of the Pre-Genesis multiverse--for his entire life; thus, he should know a thing or two about its physiology.

God Sigma wanted to transcend all limitations of the multiverse, and transcending such a structure would be 12-D. Super Sonic and Super Mega Man stalemated God Sigma, so the three of them should be Low Hyperverse level, or, Low 1-B.

To me, I think not only Mario, but Sonic are not getting the credit they deserve. Perhaps though I'll collect all my issues in one CRT, I dunno. I don't really wanna continue, but I guess I'll wait to see what's wrong with everything I say.