League of Legends Profiles Revision Thread

Ok, so I wanted to highlight and discuss the ratings we've given to most/nearly all the Tier 7 champions since I feel that they are all based on game mechanics and improper scaling. The feats in question regarding this are Garen's Demacian Justice and Skaarl's speed. I'll also be talking about how we should properly rate the champions from this point onwards and what exactly we should put in their profiles.

This concerns pretty much all the champs here, however quite a few of them do not have updated lore (new stories since the 2014 removal of Journal of Justice), so there may be a lot of Unknown stats until we get new stories (which might take a while as Riot tends to release stories in bundles rather than serial updates).


Main Problems

Generally, I feel that most, if not all champs have been vastly inflated beyond what the characters seem to be capable of in lore (especially those who lack any real magical talents/abilities like Garen, Graves, Jarvan IV etc.). I'll try to summarise the points down below.

• Gameplay and Lore segregatio ― Since the JoJ was removed from League's official lore, lore and gameplay have no real connections with each other; save for some small connections like Warwick's jumping capabilities being represented as his ultimate Infinite Duress or his (relatively normal) howl shown in game as Primal Howl which fears enemies and gives him damage reduction, and so shouldn't be used as feats.

• A lot of abilities that champs have in the game are not present in their updated stories and bio and there's no references to it, like Galio's passive, Shield of Durand and Winds of War. This makes it very unreliable to use game abilities as an accurate representation of what a champion is capable of in lore. Even the cinematics are subject to this as not all of them are what one could call 'lore' cinematics (like Xayah and Rakan ― Wild Magic, or Warwick's Champion Teaser). Many involve gameplay and characters who have no lore interactions fighting each other (like A New Dawn or A Twist of Fate), and so we shouldn't be using this type of cinematics for feats, as it would (and has already) lead to inflated stats.

• We should also get rid of the game items and most of the game abilities (from champion abilities to game mechanics like True Damage) from the profiles unless there is verifiable proof that they are a part of the champion's identity and function as shown in the game.

• Summarised briefly: Lore and Gameplay are no longer compliant with each other, and so we should only use Lore-related materials like champion bios, short stories and lore related cinematics as a source for their feats and stats. Game mechanics like Abilities and their descriptions, Summoner Spells, Items (unless noted to belong to a champion in lore) and all mention of things like True Damage, Magic Damage etc unless there is proof in the lore that they can pull it off.

• Garen's Demacian Justice ― My biggest problem with this is that this is based on a game mechanic (namely, Garen's ultimate ability) and from a cinematic highlighting the game, with no real connection to the lore, and is never shown or hinted at in Garen's new lore on Universe. In his stories and bio, he's presented as a highly skilled, non-magical warrior who is also a bodyguard to the Demacian Royal Family and Jarvan IV.

• Nowhere is it mentioned that he is also capable of negating magical attacks by himself (that is done by his specially made armour) or summon giant swords from the sky, something that would be considered magical, and very taboo in Demacia, given what we now know about its history. Such an ability would not only have put him in the same situation as his sister Lux (as being forced to hide it in fear of persecution and hatred), it would also go against his entire character as a person who hates and fears magic.

• Essentially, Garen being able to use Demacian Justice as presented in game contradicts his lore and since lore and gameplay are no longer compliant, I'm in favour of using lore to rate him rather than a game mechanic.

• Skaarl's speed and General Scaling ― This feat is fine by itself, my only problem is using it to rate other champions' speeds, given that Kled & Skaarl haven't fought anyone else at all. Applying this, as well as other examples of magical lightning/light to given everyone Hypersonic+ reactions seems strange, as no one else has proven that they can be that fast.

• Generally, we shouldn't be scaling all the champions to the same feats unless they've shown that they themselves can pull them off. We should restrict scaling only to within champion interactions in lore and the regions they come from (ex: Demacian champs scale to within each other only if they have shown similar capabilities).

Overall, those are the changes I want to propose, so discuss away on whether the updates/changes should be implemented or not. I'll write up a champion list later.

If I am completely honest, it has always bothered me that the champions were scaled to each other without any connection to each other. Since the game itself isn't canon in a similar vein to Overwatch, at least not since the Institute of War was removed that was, I'm pretty sure, stated to augment the power of individual champions so that they were roughly equal, which is why Jax was able to reign supreme due to sheer skill. Since that lore isn't a thing anymore, which is actually reflected on Jax's profile, there isn't much reason to scale champions with no connection.

However, while I agree in removing items from champions that don't belong to them and in removing summoner spells outside of the Summoners profile, I'm not sure about removing the champion abilities. For some, this is all we know of their abilities, and though in most cases they are strictly from the game I'm hesitant to say we can't use them.

Literally the only thing i agree with here is removing the in-game items, which was already agreed on a while ago...

We will not now, nor will we ever blatantly disregard 90% of a game's content for basically no reason. And im not sure you know what "Game Mechanics" are if you think that a character's abilities and the descriptions of them constitute as game mechanics.

Just gonna point out that there are half a dozen other tier 7 feats we use, not just Garen's feat (Janna's storms, Rammus' earthquakes, Nami's tsunamis, Udyr defeating Ao Shin, Ziggs' Mega Inferno Bomb, Braum busting part of a mountain)

No, we're not removing the stats from pages that have yet to have their lore updated. They will keep the old lore and their current stats until new lore comes out, and only then will they be adjusted.

What gives you the idea that only characters with magic are capable of being powerful...?

The idea that the LoL profiles would be "Fixed" if we completely ignore the cinematics and the game in its entirety is completely ludicrous.

I mostly agree with what DerpCity said. 90% of characters being Low 7-C and Hypersonic just because they can fight each other in game that is not canon is ridiculous in my opinion. Some of them are just normal people who have guns or can throw cards.

I also, agree with obvious game mechanics like Regenerationn and the damage types shouldn't be mentioned on their profiles. The whole point of damage types is to balance tanks and they have no connection to the lore since Riot have been changing skills from physical to magical and vice versa just to balance characters in the past.

I agree with removing game items from the list, as well as scaling everyone and their mothers to specific feats. I am not however in agreement with using strictly their lores and none else. Rather, I'm neutral there.

I mean, gameplay showcasing or not, the videos depicting them doing stuff are at least reasonable in that, it makes sense. Not like there are battles depicting Master Yi killing the star-throwing dragon or something.

I think though, that their trump cards (the lvl 6 skills) should be scaled differently from their normal attacks, like Garen's sword-dropping being seemingly far stronger than his regular strikes, as well as Graves' shotgun and his 'the big one' destroying enough rock to drop a large one on Nautilus.

Also, there's Kat running away from Graves' bullets in the cinematic that I think could be calced and scaled to Garen and some others.

Removing game items? Yes. That needed to happen a while ago.

I disagree with most of the other stuff. I can see pulling back on Skarl's scaling since Kled is a renegade in the middle of nowhere and rarely interacts with anyone.

Abilities are pretty much fine, as some semblance of them can likely be pulled off by the champions themselves. Some of their bodies and models are built to support this. Zigg has his Mega Inferno Bomb strapped to his back at all times. Urgot has his shotgun knees in place and the chains to reel people in built into his body. Certain effects could go (Silence, slow, stun, fear) since that could change on a whim if Riot didn't like it and is probably not linked to lore.

Went to sleep so I didn't get to reply then.

RE: Game Items - Since we're all in agreement about it, can we start the process? Since it's going to take a while to evaluate all the champs and see which items they have exactly in lore.

RE: Gameplay abilities - I may have overexaggerated by stating to remove them. What I meant is that we can't take champions pulling off some abilites as granted (with stuff like the different damaage types, stuns, roots, silences and more) since it greatly contradicts what they can do in lore. This is not limited to Garen's ultimate which is nowhere present in his stories save as a small nod to it in The Soldier and the Hag here:

"The knight stopped.

He dropped his companion to the ground and charged, his eyes still locked on hers.

The old woman thrilled at his impetuous attempt. He was too big, too lumbering, too slow to ready his cumbersome sword before she would descend upon him. Her fingertips crackled with dark energy, thirsting to drink in more of his mind, but she couldn't take her eyes off his. In them, she saw the years of luscious memories she would feast upon, until there was nothing left to ―

She felt something cold inside of her. Something metal. The sour tang of the knight's armor stronger than ever now, tickled the back of her throat.

The hag looked down to see Garen's sword jutting from her breast. Stains of red and black seeped from the wound, dripping onto the knight's gauntlets as he stared steadfast into her fading eyes.

He was faster than she'd thought."

There's also Jarvan's Cataclysm, which would have been quite useful in his stories (save him from being captured by Noxians/kill Shyvana's dragon mother), Galio's Winds of War and Shield of Durand, Fiora's whole kit ingame, Jax's Counterstrike and much more.

Essentially, a lot of the champions who've gotten new lore/reworks/updates don't seem to match what they can do in game, pretty much making them two different versions: lore and game. I don't see why then, we should rate them according to their game abilites instead of what they can do in lore. Cinematics are iffy for the same reason as well, as not all of them seem to indicate that they are a part of League's lore. Warwick's trailer, as well as Xayah and Rakan's video can be used as feats, as it's not taking place on Summoner's Rift, unlike the other cinematics like A New Dawn or A Twist of Fate.

RE: Scaling - This is also a major problem for the profiles as we keep scaling them for being able to fight each other in the game, which has nothing to do anymore with their lore. Almost every profile has this line: "Can fight on-par with Garen and similarly powerful champions", when nothing other than gameplay suggests it. In lore, Aatrox, Udyr, Rakan and Siver have never met with or encountered Garen in a relatively even fight, so there is no reason for such scaling.

Scaling should only apply to those who've actually encountered and fought/trained with each other (like Garen/Jarvan, Graves/Twisted Fate). People like the Ascendants, the Aspects, Celestials can be scaled to within their groups as they are all the same type of beings/gain power from the same source. Rivalries can be used, though only if it makes sense (Darius/Garen can be used, as they seem to be the representive warriors from their respective nations, but Kled/Poppy would be quite iffy since we don't really know how Yordles stack up against each other).

RE: Game Items - Yes, it was already agreed a while ago to remove them

Re: Gameplay abilities - Youre acting like PIS isnt a thing...No, in lore or not we're not removing their abilities for no reason. Its not happening. End of story.

RE: Scaling - You do realize this would make nearly half the characters have unknown stats for no reason whatsoever right? It was agreed a long time ago, when the LoL pages were still new here, that a composite of gameplay and lore would be used due to a severe lack of feats in the verse.

I agree with a majority of this. Certain abilities don't make sense anymore on some champions while some abiilties are still needed. On the other hand it would be a pain to have to scale everyone again. But then again we can at least adjust the stats based on League feats. I mean they're at least superhuman so there's that.

I vehemently disagree with the idea of removing the scaling.

So they should all be multi-galaxy level because they can kill Aurelion Sol?... LOL

Why would they be scaled to Sol...?

WeeklyBattles said:

Why would they be scaled to Sol...?

Click to expand...

Why would they be scaled to Garen...?

Because scaling them to Garen makes sense as he's basically just a strong human, so he serves as a baseline, whereas scaling them to a dragon that creates galaxies with a wave of his hand would be a massive outlier for literally everyone besides God Fist Lee Sin

WeeklyBattles said:

Because scaling them to Garen makes sense as he's basically just a strong human, so he serves as a baseline, whereas scaling them to a dragon that creates galaxies with a wave of his hand would be a massive outlier for literally everyone besides God Fist Lee Si

Click to expand...

Maybe he is very powerful compared to other warriors, it still does not make sense

Sorry for my bad english

And so is everyone else in LoL, if they werent they wouldnt have the ability to even participate. It makes perfect sense for a guy who is literally just a strong human to serve as a baseline for a verse where powerful magic and technology are commonplace. If people werent comparable to him they wouldnt be worth mentioning. Plus, Janna, Rammus, Nami, Udyr, Ziggs, and Braum all have Low 7-C-7-C feats, and technically Darius does as well.

Participate in what? the summoner rift is not real

Not true, Summoner's Rift canonically exists in a remote forest between Freljord and the Ironspike Mountains.

I question these things because I sincerely believe that not all of them have that power, I also know that it would be very difficult to change them all

WeeklyBattles said:

Not true, Summoner's Rift canonically exists in a remote forest between Freljord and the Ironspike Mountains.

Click to expand...

I mean the battle that takes place there

I hate to be that guy but "I dont think theyre that strong" is never an argument we will agree with on this wiki.

I know... then just delete the items that are completely useless here

RE: Gameplay abilities ― Where is PIS involved in the examples I gave? For there to be PIS there must be proof that the champions are capable of such abilities. Where is Garen's ultimate in lore? Where are J4's dashes, flag throwing or ultimate? Where is Galio's Shield of Durand (both the damage reduction and the taunt)? Where is Fiora's whole kit? The list goes on and on. The game itself doesn't count since Riot has stated that anything that happens in game is not representative of what happens in the LoL lore.

While I don't want to remove all the abilities, I think we shouldn't take them as literal feats for the champions, as it contradicts massively with their updated lore (for those who have gotten it). This applies on a case to case basis. As an example, Warwick and Galio can have their ultimates in their profiles as something they can do (Leaping large distances) without any of the game effects (Damage reduction, crowd control, knock ups) since they've shown it in their lore background. Garen's ultimate on the other hand has to go since it's not shown anywhere and massively contradicts his whole character if he had it.

RE: Scaling - Well, now we do have some feats from lore to use for some characters so I don't see why we can't start changing some of the profiles. I mean, explain how Taliyah can have Hypersonic+ speed without using the fact that she exists in a game with Kled. She has her own feats, but nothing that indicates she possesses such reactions. You can't claim that game interactions or gameplay abilities are all lore canon since they've been separated, as what happens in game now has no effect on what happens in lore. There is no Institute of War or League so scaling based off that is wrong and just gives inflated stats. No one is shown to be travelling to the Rift to fight it out in their stories, so why are we using it as a basis for scaling?

RE: Summoner's Rift - Where is the proof for the Rift existing in lore? Like as in actual, Riot approved sources? That are part of the current League lore, not belonging to the Institute of War?

RE: Gameplay abilities ― Exactly, they didnt use them when they could have, its PIS plain and simple. What youre doing is taking abilities characters have and saying they dont for literally no reason. The game absolutely counts, there is no reason whatsoever to flat out ignore it for no reason. Youre acting like LoL is just a story with a game in the background, when its the exact opposite. Simply put, removing/altering a characters abilities is to ignore 95% of the point of their existence.

RE: Scaling - We're not changing them because there's nothing wrong with them. That's not necessary, that's why scaling exists. I'd love to remind you of the events of "Burning Tides", where Gangplank was thought to be dead in the lore, and was thus restricted in-game. If gameplay and lore are seperate then explain that. And on the contrary, if the Institute of War WERE still around they would be inflated, as characters canonically had their power equalized by the institute, but now that its gone there's no reason to assume the same happens currently. If anything, the game and the lore are more interconnected than they ever were in when the Institute was around.

Uhhh... why don't we just, you know, put different keys..?

For instance: One for lore and one for gameplay?

Seems simple to me.

Because nearly half the profiles that would get said key would just be "Unknown" for all their stats as LoL is somewhat lacking in feats for a lot of characters, but the ones provided are consistently in the Tier 7 range. It wouldnt make sense to do so.

What is the problem with half of the profiles being Unknown we are supposed to give accurate ratings not to wank everybody to tier 7 just so they can be used in fights?

The problem is they scale to characters with consistent tier 7 feats, thats the accurate rating. Removing scaling would do nothing but downplay for no reason whatsoever.

Don't think it's a no reason issue to be honest considering the arguments but I'm down for whatever direction this is heading.

Sorry for the delay, but I was travelling and didn't get a chance to sit down.

RE: Gameplay abilities ― "Exactly, they didnt use them when they could have, its PIS plain and simple." isn't an answer to my question, Weekly. I'm asking for actual proof (from the stories/bios/teasers) rather than just "the game has them doing it, so they should be able to do in lore as well.". Riot has already stated that game versions of champions are not one-to-one copies of their actual selves in lore here:

"Essentially, it means that the game and story aren't one-to-one copies of each other. League as a game is about creating awesome gameplay, while League as a story is about creating deep, vibrant characters and factions inhabiting an expansive world. We don't want to limit story because of gameplay, just like we wouldn't limit gameplay because of story ― we want both of them (and all the other elements of League) to have the freedom to be as great as they possibly can be."

So I don't see why we should be assuming that all the champions are exactly as they are portrayed in game without proof, which you still haven't shown yet. Where is the proof that Garen (in lore) can use Demacian Justice? Where is the proof that Galio can create magical tornadoes or that Jarvan can throw his standard to an area and dash to it? If you can answer those questions without using gameplay as an answer, then I'll drop this line of thought. In the meantime, I'll stick with this.

RE: Scaling - Actually, there is something wrong with the profiles, and it's that you're applying one character's feat (which isn't even supposed to be applicable, given that it's gameplay) to all, without any reasoning other than "They all exist in the same game". Accurate scaling is only possible if there is a proper reason as to why they should be scaled to such feats. For example, Azir's feat can be used as a feat for scaling for the other Ascendants, since they've all gotten their power from the same source and so shouldn't be any stronger than the other save for Xerath, as well as the fact Xerath has shown feats on a similar level. However, we would not be using this feat to scale Ashe, Jayce or other champs (save Brand) since they have no connections/interactions/showings that they too can contend with the Ascendants.

Gangplank's disabling was simply them updating him, while tying it into the event, as they thought it would be a nice touch. Still has no bearing on gameplay being as canon as lore. Otherwise, everyone would scale to Satan Teemo, since there was last year's Halloween event, where you had to fight against him as any champ. You still haven't answered properly to my questions on why we should scale all champions to just a few champions' feats, regardless of whether it makes sense to do so or not, other than "They just do!".

Essentially, what I'm suggesting (take only lore as a basis for their ratings) is exactly what you've done for all the League skin profiles we have. So why should we let the gameplay influence scaling for all the Classic versions of the champs, and ignore it for the skins? That seems like double standards to me.

RE: Gameplay abilities ― ...You do realize you just provided a quote that says that they dont want to limit the lore because of what's present in the game right...? As in, you're using a quote that says that what they have in the game they have in the lore, but they dont use it because it would limit their lore potential, and using that as your argument that they dont have it at all. That's beyond an assumption youre making, now youre just flat out ignoring context and canon.

RE: Scaling - Seven characters feats actually, and there is no reason whatsoever that it shouldnt be applicable. And that's why we dont scale the low-tiers to characters with higher-tier feats. Meanwhile, you have yet to provide an actual, logical reason as to WHY they shouldnt be scaled other that "They exist together in-game, therefore they shouldnt scale to each other", which in and of itself makes no sense whatsoever.

Mmm no, Gangplank's disabling was due to the lore occurance where Miss Fortune tried to kill him by destroying the Dead Pool, in which he was believed to be dead both in-lore and in-game, and the aftermath leading him to permanently lose his left arm. The events of Burning Tide are brought up numerous times in both later lore and the game itself, notably Illaoi thanking Miss Fortune for causing said event as it set Gangplank back on his path in life and Gangplank taunting Miss Fortune over how she didnt actually kill him. Once again youre completely ignoring context and canon and youre basically just using your own fan theory as an argument. We scale champions to feats because there is no reason not to. As I said before, the game and lore are not segregated like they were before the retcon of the Institute of War, if anything theyre more intertwined that theyve ever been before.

Yeah no, only taking lore as a basis for would lead to horribly lowballed, inaccurate, or flat out blank pages for no reason whatsoever.

So do we use Dragon Ball rules where the manga is to the lore and the anime is to the game?