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Fatalis Profile Revision

GimmyJibbsJr

GimmyJibbsJr

They/Them
1,438
131
So, my understanding of the Fatalis Profile was that it was a Composite Profile, but I see a few problems with it.

Based on the way the AP section is structured, it would suggest this isn't actually a composite page. There is nothing at that section indicating that the Country Level and Planet Level sections are for different versions of the Fatalis, when it should (Black/Crimson are Small Country, White Fatalis is Planet). Also, I don't undertstand why it's "Possibly Planet Level" when everyone in the comment section of that calc said it was a solid feat and that they were perfectly fine with it being implemented.

Also, we have NOTHING for speed in terms of the Black/Crimson Fatalis when, again, we should since this is a Composite profile. There used to be stats there, but then it was removed for some reason. If it is because of a calc being required, then I could certainly attempt to provide something for this partiuclar section.

And then the Durability section still contains highly outdated estimations on what the durability should be for three variations of the Fatalis. It also blurs everything together, which then implies it is not a Composite Profile...

Even though we are then supposed to assume it is a Composite Profile, since it contains moves and attacks from every incatrnation of the Fatalis.

And the Weakness section seems to not contain much substantial info and should be fixed with the actual weaknesses for each version of Fatatlis.


TL;DR This profile is rather messy and should be fixed.
 
Okay. So what do you suggest instead?
 
I think that, for the sections like Attack Potency, Speed and Durability, we should model the Fatalis' page after the Kirin's.

There should be a "|" between each rating. Example:

"Attack Potency: Small Country Level (Destroyed the entire Schrade Kingdom in a short amount of time) | At Least Small Country Level (Superior to the Black Fatalis, who could destroy the entire Schrade Kingdom in a short amount of time) | Planet Level (Managed to push the moon)"

Key: Black Fatalis | Crimson Fatalis | White Fatalis


Basically, I want to structure all of those sections (AP, Speed, Durability, etc.) like that.

I will probably make a speed calc for some Monster Hunter creatures soon, which will have something substantial for a weaker incarnation of the Fatalis, so hopefully that will eb acceptable. Regardless of that, there were speed feats for the weaker incarnations already on the page, but they were removed for some reason.

Durability simply has several Ratings that are outdated and should probably be replaced with just the two ratings of Small Country and Planet Level.

Weaknesses should also be updated to showcase the elemental faults of each incarnation.


Is this okay?
 
Yes. I think that seems okay.
 
Sweet.

I'll get on editing the profiles in a little bit. I decided to just do a calc on the weaker incarnation's attack speed, and I already posted it into the Calculation Evaluation thread. If I get no feedback on it, I'll silmply restore the pre-existing speed feats.
 
It's mostly my fault that it's messy. It was my first edit to the wiki, and I was unaware of how it operated. Sorry about that.

In any case, I see no problems with what you're saying, so I give you my full support.
 
@Gimmy: Just a note. Make the calculations first, and have it evaluated before making any changes to the Fatalis profile. We would need proof of the stat changes that you have suggested, and an actual calculation would solidify this proof.

Thank you.
 
I agree with Lina. It is best if you change the speed back in the meantime.
 
Also, I just noticed that the FTL attack speed with Lightning was removed. While I can see the logic in this, it was discussed a long time ago in this thread, and accepted.
 
Can you summarise why lightning should be considered FTL? In any case, you need to insert an explanation, even if it somehow is true.
 
Has anyone calculated the speed of the White Fatalis' lightning here on the Wiki, or at OBD? We would need to calculate its travel speed as well.

Hopefully a video of these two feats that I mentioned would suffice, as an official calculation could be done on them.
 
After the White Fatalis pushed the moon into place in front of the sun, a storm formed around the moon and and lightning can be seen crackling inside that storm.


It is also stated that the Fatalis flies "Around the eclipse" in order to summon this lightning, meaning it possibly gets these bolts of lightning to come from that particular storm and that it is very likely that the storm is actually very close to the moon itself. (Basically the lightning travels from the moon to the earth in an instant). And, I also realized that I should probably re-calculate the White Fatalis flying from the moon to the Earth, as I could get a better timeframe for the intial feat, and the feat performed in-game, if also acceptable, could yield a higher speed then the flight from the moon to the earth in the cutscene.

Also, I just realized it could be possible to calc how much energy it takes to create a storm of that size... But I don't know how to calc that. I'll make a request for it later, though.
 
Been a while, so I'll just BUMP this I guess

I posted the calcs for Crimson Fatalis/White Fatalis Speeds in the Evaluation thread, but nobody commented aside from Lasatar.
 
Yeah, our calculation group is usually too busy to check up all of the requests. Sorry. I know that it isn't ideal, but this is just a hobby site for most of our members.
 
I've responded, but I'm unsure on the value. Our hunter doesn't have some kind of superhuman vision that can see a dragon of any size from over 350000km away. It's just too far away (I can barely see my house from the top of the neighboring mountain, and that's far closer, plus it's probably larger than W.F.). You might want to figure out another way of measuring that speed.
 
I mean, to be fair, it really shouldn't change the speed of the monsters anyway, considering that White Fatty pushed the moon, so it must have come from there. And regardless, Hunters aren't normal humans by any means, so them actually being able to see that far and actually just move at those speeds isn't unbelievable.

IMO the Hunter shouldn't just have these speeds limited to his reactions, but set as his actual speeds, since him being able to react to MHS or even Sub-Rel attacks wouldn't mean much if he couldn't physically move himself to block or dodge them. :/
 
To be fair, Fatalis telegraphs all of its attacks, even moreso than other monsters, so reactions wouldn't be too high. But in any case, what I meant, is that the eclipse itself was finished a good six seconds before you started the timeframe. It would be better to measure from there rather than just after it comes into view.
 
Attacks being telegraphed is something that can likely be attributed to gameplay mechanics, since in many cinematics we see monsters making quick moves in which Hunters have a hard time reacting.

Also, I don't see how that would mean the Hunter has low reactions anyway, since Fatalis should still be superior to MHS monsters in speed with or without a calc. It's movements on the ground should be just as fast as they are in the air regardless.

Also, we aren't even that certain with when the Fatalis left them moon after pushing. That's why I went with what I did. During that cutscene, the camera focuses on a specific part of the storm, indicating that the Fatalis was coming from there, and this is the only thing acting as a sort of indicator that the Fatalis had actually began to fly back to Earth.
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
Attacks being telegraphed is something that can likely be attributed to gameplay mechanics, since in many cinematics we see monsters making quick moves in which Hunters have a hard time reacting.
Also, I don't see how that would mean the Hunter has low reactions anyway, since Fatalis should still be superior to MHS monsters in speed with or without a calc. It's movements on the ground should be just as fast as they are in the air regardless.
Click to expand...
I'd agree with the first paragraph for some monsters, but do we have any cinematics showing that for Fatalis?

Why is Fatalis superior in speed to massively hypersonic monsters? The only monster feat I remember giving MHS speed was Hard Core Kirin's teleport, one ability from one non-canon version of a monster that was merely assumed to be as fast as lightning because of some vague "one with lightning" statement.

White Fatalis supposedly flying from the moon to Earth seems too assumptive given it's never stated to travel to the moon and we don't actually see where it comes from, not to mention the possibility that relativistic or even massively hypersonic speed could be massive outliers unless proven otherwise.

And yeah, there really should be separate keys for separate versions of Fatalis.
 
That version of Kirin is not non-canon. It is fully canon, actually. No idea why you would think it is non-canon, though.

And even then, the statement of Kirin being One With Lightning was also made in a main-series game, which would still yield validity in this case, and would likely end up granting the MHS rating to Kirin. Even if it didn't, Kushala Daora would give it to the Kirin, and many other mosnters, for reasons I will explain below.


White Fatalis was given it's planet level ranking because of it's Moon pushing calc. If it pushed the moon, it had to have been literally on the moon for it to do this feat. Besides, we already have Dalamadur who can summons fragments of a star and have them fall to earth in 5-10 seconds, which would be a FTL attack, mind, and the Garuba Daora, which literally uses light in it's attacks.

Not only that, but I already calced Crimson Fatalis' meteors to be Sub-Rel anyway, based on the official statement that they come from outer space, and finding the time it took them to arrive on Earth after they were summoned by the Crimson Fatalis itself. White Fatalis is also clearly above that monster, so it should be beyond that monster's in most every regard, which would be supported by the Planet Level Calc done for him by another user and the Relativisitc Calc I did. So overall, White Fatalis having Relativisitc speed is not really an outlier, nor are other monsters being MHS really outliers, considering it is one of the top three most powerful monsters in the franchise, the other two being Disufiroa and Shantien.

Also, it should be mentioned that Kushala Daora dispersed a giant storm cloud that spanned to the edges of the horizen in roughly 1-2 seconds (iirc). In the very first thread for Monster Hunter revisions, ThePerpetual did a quick calc putting that at Mach 150, which is MHS anyway.


And no, I don't recall any Fatalis appearing directly in a cinematic feature. But regardless, there is no reason why it should moving slower then other monsters it is superior to by default.
 
Hard Core Kirin is from Monster Hunter Frontier G, which isn't canon to the main Monster Hunters. Either way, scaling speed from that statement is still speculative.

It isn't a given that White Fatalis had to be on the moon to push it if we don't know the mechanics. Zorc from Yu-Gi-Oh was able to do the same thing from Earth via magic, and White Fatalis clearly displayed magic-like supernatural abilities during the MH4 cutscene.

Unless Kushala Daora actually flew the distance to the horizon, that doesn't justify MHS movement speed.

The other monsters summoning meteors also doesn't justify sub-relativistic movement speed for the monsters themselves because we can't just assume they can move as quickly as their projectiles without proof.

It's also important to note that "superior in power" doesn't inherently mean "superior in speed."
 
I don't actually recall the Frontier series being stated to be non canon to the Main Series. If it were non-canon, then Disufiroa being named the most powerful mosnter in the franchise would be totally moot/pointless, as it comes from the Frontier series. In fact, there actually seems to be a lot of info treated as canon that comes from these games. I'd at least like some evidence stating that it is non-canon.

White Fatalis has never shown anything along the lines of magic-like abilities outside of being able to summon lightning and generate it. There is nothing, to my knowledge, about any of the Fatalis variants having such a power like that. The moon, most likely, was physically pushed. I mean, why would the Fatalis bother even going above the clouds or even physically leaving the Schrade Kingdom if it could just move the moon with a magic-like power? Why not use it against the Hunter if it is so powerful? Well, it's because he most likely doesn't have it.
 
MHF is canon. And also, Fatalis clearly can't travel as fast on the ground as it can in the air. It takes ages for it to walk anywhere, but when flying it can traverse one side of Schrade to the other in a second or two.

Also, I'm starting to doubt that Fatalis actually was at the moon when it was pushed. I don't doubt that Fatalis itself caused the eclipse (every quest in the game takes exactly one day, and I doubt you could get a natural eclipse every day by repeating the quest), but it could have done it from a distance, maybe by psychokinesis or something. That could explain the meteors it can summon. Also, watch a clip of a G-Rank Fatalis from Frontier and you'll see that they might have magic-like abilities after all.
 
Lasatar said:
MHF is canon. And also, Fatalis clearly can't travel as fast on the ground as it can in the air. It takes ages for it to walk anywhere, but when flying it can traverse one side of Schrade to the other in a second or two.
Also, I'm starting to doubt that Fatalis actually was at the moon when it was pushed. I don't doubt that Fatalis itself caused the eclipse (every quest in the game takes exactly one day, and I doubt you could get a natural eclipse every day by repeating the quest), but it could have done it from a distance, maybe by psychokinesis or something. That could explain the meteors it can summon. Also, watch a clip of a G-Rank Fatalis from Frontier and you'll see that they might have magic-like abilities after all.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought, honestly. It didn't make much sense to me that MHF would be non-canon when so much is implying that it is canon.

I mean, G-Rank Fatalis' powers are all attributed to Fire and Dragon Element as stated in the ecology section, including those "magic-like" abilities. It's all done via the currently established power sets in this universe. One of the only ones that has the in-game world stumped is Dalamadur's blue energy from the star fragment meteors and beam attack.

And again, if White Fatalis had this power, he'd use it in the fight against the Hunter. Every Monster in the franchise utilizes all of it's capabilities in battle, so if this were actually a power it had, it would also use this in the fight against you... And it doesn't. Simply put, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have it.
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
I don't actually recall the Frontier series being stated to be non canon to the Main Series. If it were non-canon, then Disufiroa being named the most powerful mosnter in the franchise would be totally moot/pointless, as it comes from the Frontier series. In fact, there actually seems to be a lot of info treated as canon that comes from these games. I'd at least like some evidence stating that it is non-canon.
Click to expand...
I had always heard that Frontier wasn't canon. This is my first time hearing it's canon.


GimmyJibbsJr said:
White Fatalis has never shown anything along the lines of magic-like abilities outside of being able to summon lightning and generate it. There is nothing, to my knowledge, about any of the Fatalis variants having such a power like that. The moon, most likely, was physically pushed. I mean, why would the Fatalis bother even going above the clouds or even physically leaving the Schrade Kingdom if it could just move the moon with a magic-like power? Why not use it against the Hunter if it is so powerful? Well, it's because he most likely doesn't have it.
Click to expand...
I was referring to the weird storm/vortex around the moon when White Fatalis appears. White Fatalis is powered by Dragon element, which is already a mysterious form of energy in the Monster Hunter universe, so it stands to reason that Dragon energy had something to do with that.</div>
 
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