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The speed page

Antvasima

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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

Currently, the flight speed section features the following text:

"The speed at which a character or object flies a certain distance, like going from the earth to the sun for example.

High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to manoeuvre.

However, the problem with this supposition is that perceiving time at a proportionate rate to (for example) MFTL+ travel would also make it logically impossible to not go insane from any trip though the universe, as it would constantly feel like it took at least billions of years.

Building on this, it is much harder to write reasonable and entertaining stories and challenges for characters that perceive and can react to their surroundings at speeds that enormously transcend the speed of light. Any challenges and confrontations would logically be over in less than an instant.

Thus most fiction writers and franchises tend to gloss over these facts for the sake of suspension of disbelief, and make a great distinction between regular movement speed and flight speed.

Basically, most fictional characters do not remotely tend to exhibit FTL or higher movement or perception speed in regular encounters simply because they can fly that swiftly.

As such, a character should preferably prove that its regular movement speed is equal to or higher than its flight speed to be listed as such."

I wonder whether or not I made a mistake when writing this long ago, and it should be modified? It seems like most editors in this wiki ignore the guideline anyway, and rather use flight speed as a gauge for combat speed, unless explicitly contradicted.

In addition, here is the text from the "reaction speed" section:

"The speed at which a character can react. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed. Say character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That's their reaction speed. Keep in mind, sometimes a person aim dodges and it's not as good of a feat. For example let's say character A uses a minigun on character B, but the minigun takes a second or two to charge up and Character B see's this. If Character B dodges it's considered aim dodging since he/she knew the attack was going to happen. Reaction speed is reacting to an attack you don't know is going to happen or at a very close range. The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than its movement speed."

I also wonder if somebody has any ideas for rewriting this, as it seems somewhat clumsily worded.
 
Well for reaction speed I would word it more simply, like:

"Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. (Generally dodging feats)

Examples include:

  • Dodging point blank gunfire from an AK-47 without Aim Dodging.
  • Reacting to another enemy's attack
  • Reacting and avoiding beams of light
  • Etc..."
Personally I think flight speed is fine as it is.
 
Okay. Thank you for the input.
 
To be honest, I think for the most part we were really inconsistent about which speed to give when to this point and not just for flight speed. So this might become a major revision, if we make strict definitions to orientate on.

For example the greatest group of calculated speed feats would be dodging feats. That is simply because movement relative to something onscreen is easiest to calculate and most reliable. Technically that should be reaction speed after the description we have, but most listed combat speeds come from that. Listing speeds calculated like that as combat speed would also not be something I would disagree with, given that the character has demonstrated quickly getting to this speed with his whole body and the ability to react with it, which are the properties the speed used in combat must have. (to that comes that calculating combat speed after current definition is rarely even possible, because it would requires a bunch of speed feats to happen right after each other)

So if we want to implement clear definitions and apply them that will possibly result in a lot of content revision.


In case of flight speed I would agree, though in theory I think one could actually unify that and travel speed. Basically moving over large distances without explicitly having to dodge attacks or similar at the same time often should constitute to one of those two, I think. So that description is fine in my opinion.
 
Well, I prefer to keep travel/running speed and flight speed separate.

In any case, the main issue here is that in practice, most members seem to have gone by the "unless explicitly contradicted, combat speed and reflexes are equal to flight speed" route. Meaning: We have avoided scaling Marvel and DC characters to their flight speeds, but mostly done so othervise, as far as I am aware.

In contrast, the regulation above is worded in the opposite manner: Unless proven othervise, flight speed and combat speed/reflexes should be evaluated separately.
 
So the main problem is that the existing rules regarding flight speed are not used in practice?

Hmm.. well, I don't know what one could do to encourage users more to keep an eye on that.

I will try to point the standard out when I see such a case, but I don't know what to do beyond that.
 
Well, I wonder if we should switch the rules to the standard that has actually usually been used in practice?
 
Well, personally I think the distinction between travel speed or flight speed (in the particular case a a character traveling per flight) and combat speed is relevant, so I am in favor of keeping it.
 
Okay. Never mind then.
 
Wouldn't it make sense to get an estimate of how far someone would have to travel before they need to react in various environments?

For example say there's an average of 1 building per 100 square meters in an area. Find out many square meters they'd have to go before the chances of them needing to react are high enough to be considered a valid feat.
 
While we are discussing the topic, can anybody explain why we have a distinction between reactions and combat speed? They usually seem to amount to the same thing, so perhaps the sections should be merged together?
 
To my knowledge, combat is like attacking speed, reactions is more defensive movement. Think of it like boxing almost.
 
Well, for most characters, they seem to be identical, but I suppose that there may be exceptions.
 
Antvasima said:
While we are discussing the topic, can anybody explain why we have a distinction between reactions and combat speed?
Hello. I am sorry for posting on a staff-only thread, but I'd suggest having visual examples to go along with explanation, so people understand it better.

Fate ubw archer's reflexes
Archer has the reactions but not the bodily speed required for combat speed

Ubw assassin vs saber3
Sasaki has combat speed; both reactions and bodily movement to fight Saber, a vastly physically superior opponent
 
Those examples are too messy and disorienting to use in the speed page.
 
I do not know. We should preferably keep the current wordings, unless somebody has better suggestions however.
 
Hmm. That might debunk the entire notion that flight speed automatically requires comparable reflexes. I am not sure, if, and where, we should include it however.
 
Right after the link to the Brevoort tumblr. Something like "Even in reality space travel would have next to no collisions even across immesnely vast distances".
 
Okay. Does anybody else think that this is a good idea?
 
Okay.
 
Hmm... Isn't it almost impossible to find a legit speed calculation that exceeds supersonic (with bullet timing) that would actually be a reaction/combat speed feat? Almost all MFTL+ calcs are travel. Even popular verses like the HST, DC comics and DBS have mostly travel feats. Only exception are the occasional nanosecond feats.
 
Yes. That is why I wondered if we should modify the rule.
 
Personally, I think yeah, because otherwise, soooo many profiles would be unfit for battles, with just unknowns as combat speed. As much as I like fair fights, I don't want EVERY match being speed equalized. And even with us being a indexing site first, every profile with "Unknown" for speed would look not-good.
 
Well, I agree about that.
 
I think it should be that travel scales to reactions unless there's good evidence to the contrary, or if feats just don't match up at all.

Example of travel = reactions would be character A travels to Mars in a second, character B fights so fast character A does not see them

Example of travel =/= is character A travels to Mars in a second, character B fights them but there's no real indication of very high speed and all reference points are comparably "slow"
 
I think it should be that travel scales to reactions unless there's good evidence to the contrary, or if feats just don't match up at all.

That might be an idea. Although there would still be the problem of explaining it properly in the Speed page.

What do the rest of you think?
 
@LordXCano:

I don't understand the examples, especially the first one. Also, jetfighters don't have supersonic reflexes apparently.

I guess if the one who is flying at great speeds can do maneuvers at that speed (e.g. dodging lasers) with the source of the attack not coming directly ahead (since I think it would be easier to see that way when it's right in front of you), then it could scale to their reflexes.
 
@Gemmy. First example is saying if the character is capable of blitzing, and has a travel feat, then it should be seen as travel=reactions. Vice versa for the second example.
 
Well, we have generally scaled flight speed and travel/running speed to combat speed, not just reactions. What do the rest of the staff think about this practice?
 
I'm okay with it. Otherwise, Goku tops out at FTL+, Superman tops out at MFTL even in Pre Crisis, Naruto is unknown, etc.
 
I obviously agree that I do not want regulations that cause most of our pages to get Unknown speed statistics.
 
I dunno. People don't typically have subsonic reflexes when they fly an airplane at cruise speeds and slow down enough to stop at their designated landing zones, but maybe that's just me oversimplifying things and is probably wrong.
 
No, I think that you do have a point in that they might prepare for breaking in long in advance.
 
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