Kanan upgrade

LordKill90908 · Oct 4, 2016

Looks like Kanan has a town level feat here:

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blo...at-kanan-and-ezra-throw-some-asteroids.36058/

Soldier_Blue · Oct 7, 2016

It's ChaosTheory123 so the calc has to be good.

But town to large town level Kanan and Ezra (though most of that would be Kanan as Chaos noted) is a bit of a stretch considering this feat is damn impressive even by the standards of Councillor level Jedi. Are we sure this can't just be outlier?

If this is accepted though, it scales to A LOT of characters.

The_Everlasting · Oct 7, 2016

Soldier Blue said:
But town to large town level Kanan and Ezra (though most of that would be Kanan as Chaos noted) is a bit of a stretch considering this feat is damn impressive even by the standards of Councillor level Jedi. Are we sure this can't just be outlier?

Well, Vader has a Small Island level feat and a couple Town level feats, and most characters already get partial/total scaling from it.

Regardless, if this is accepted (Which I imagine it would, Chaos knows a lot about calcs), this would more than likely scale to Kanan (Duh), the Grand Inquisitor (Who managed to outmatch Kanan in a duel until he tapped into a "Light Side Force Rage"), Asajj Ventress (Who was acknowledged as superior to the Grand Inquisitor), Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano (Comparable to Ventress), Kylo Ren (A peer of Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano and should logically be superior to Kanan), and Rey (Defeated Kylo Ren). Everyone else already has better.

Legion350 · Oct 7, 2016

Town level Kylo Ren if this is accepted.

The_Everlasting · Oct 7, 2016

On another note, there's also this interview with Dave Filoni and this line relating to Rebels Ahsoka.

We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. So that was why you didn't see her as much and when she showed up it was purposeful.

So Ahsoka now benefits from full scaling with Vader, otherwise known as "At least 7-C, likely High 7-A".

Also that moment when canon Ahsoka is stronger than her EU counterpart.

CrossverseCrisis · Oct 7, 2016

Ever brought this up to me Skype today, so i'm only gonna be here for just this. That's it.

I agree with this upgrade, really. Seems fine enough and this would very well upgrade anyone that's Tier 8 to Tier 7 based on scaling from Kanan (like what Ever said earlier above).

I do also think Ahsoka can be scaled further to Vaders level as the quote that Ever posted here is from, what he told me, the director of the show itself. Which can boost her to Canon Vaders level if accepted.

And that's all that is for me here. Done. And will just observe and see how things go from here/

Soldier_Blue · Oct 8, 2016

The Everlasting said:
On another note, there's also this interview with Dave Filoni and this line relating to Rebels Ahsoka.
We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. So that was why you didn't see her as much and when she showed up it was purposeful.

So Ahsoka now benefits from full scaling with Vader, otherwise known as "At least 7-C, likely High 7-A".

Also that moment when canon Ahsoka is stronger than her EU counterpart.

And a friend of mine refused to believe me when I said Rebels Ahsoka is Councillor level for contending with Vader. Not at all surprising given that Padawan Ahsoka was already on the level of fully fledged Knights and briefly contended with Ventress and Grievous.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 8, 2016

The Everlasting said:
Well, Vader has a Small Island level feat and a couple Town level feats, and most characters already get partial/total scaling from it.
Regardless, if this is accepted (Which I imagine it would, Chaos knows a lot about calcs), this would more than likely scale to Kanan (Duh), the Grand Inquisitor (Who managed to outmatch Kanan in a duel until he tapped into a "Light Side Force Rage"), Asajj Ventress (Who was acknowledged as superior to the Grand Inquisitor), Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano (Comparable to Ventress), Kylo Ren (A peer of Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano and should logically be superior to Kanan), and Rey (Defeated Kylo Ren). Everyone else already has better.

Yeah I'm familiar with his calcs. He's done a shit tonne of Star Wars ones. Hell, most of the stats for Star Wars characters here come from many of his calcs.

I don't think it should scale to Rey. Kylo Ren was severely injured during that fight. He was nerfed to the point that a peak human character could brielfy contend with him. I say we wait until episode VIII and see what kind of results Rey's training under Luke will produce.

Also, this should scale to pretty much ANYONE who has ever held the title of Jedi master since they should be superior to Kanan. So this means I'm going to have to modify the stats I have presented for Disney Luminara.

The_Everlasting · Oct 8, 2016

@Soldier

Kylo was toying with Finn, you can see it with his expression, and even then he was mostly dominating, with only one wound thanks to overconfidence.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 8, 2016

The Everlasting said:
@Soldier
Kylo was toying with Finn, you can see it with his expression, and even then he was mostly dominating, with only one wound thanks to overconfidence.

Oh? I'll take another look at that fight in the movie and novel then. Perhaps the novel will offer some clarity since the books tend to have greater detail.

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 8, 2016

@Everlasting @Soldier

Even ignoring the novelization of The Force Awakens (which is debatable for its canon), it was obvious Kylo didn't want to waste time by trying to kill him. Also, it is possible Kylo had plans for Finn. He called him a traitor, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want him alive. He might have wanted to torture him for info, hence why he KO'd him instead of killing him. To extract what he knows, like he did to Poe earlier in the film.

Also let's mention the fact that Kylo knew he was screwed as soon as Chewbacca blew up the sheild generator of Starkiller Base, which meant Kylo either had to kill them both and take the lightsaber, or do whatever else he wanted with them before the base was destroyed. He simply did not have all the time in the world to make his choices.

Speaking of Chewbacca, Kylo was hit with a Wall level blaster bolt. Regardless of his armor or Force wall, he took that hit 100%. So, he was obviously injured. In fact it made him bleed profusely during his fight with Finn and Rey.

Lina_Shields · Oct 9, 2016

@TE: I believe I have said this before, but the quote

We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. So that was why you didn't see her as much and when she showed up it was purposeful.

is extremely important. Seeing that we only see Ahsoka and Vader clash with Sabers only, and no other force abilities were used, the above statement needs to be added to Ahsoka as a note.

This is because both Vader and Ahsoka's striking strength are classified as only Class GJ.

@Soy: Aren't blaster bolts Small Building level?

The_Everlasting · Oct 9, 2016

@Lina

Ahsoka actually does throw a Force Push in the battle, but that's about it, and yeah, the statement is definitely important.

And yes, blaster bolts are Small Building level, and Chewbacca's Bowcaster is stronger than regular blasters.

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 9, 2016

I say wall level cause Kylo might have passively reduced or resisted it. Force walls effect blasters and sabers, and Kylo can creat barriers in canon. Well, he is 100% canon and there's no EU for him actually, so...

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

Lina Shields said:
@TE: I believe I have said this before, but the quote

We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. So that was why you didn't see her as much and when she showed up it was purposeful.

is extremely important. Seeing that we only see Ahsoka and Vader clash with Sabers only, and no other force abilities were used, the above statement needs to be added to Ahsoka as a note.

This is because both Vader and Ahsoka's striking strength are classified as only Class GJ.

@Soy: Aren't blaster bolts Small Building level?

Ahsoka did actually blast Vader back several metres with a casual Force push. While Kanan and Ezra did do so before as well, Vader was greatly holding back then and toying with them. Against Ahsoka, he was legit blood-lusted.

That quote plus Ahsoka casually blasting back a blood-lusted Vader should be enough to warrant a major upgrade. I do indeed believe Rebels Ahsoka is on the level of Councillors. So her stats should be in the same league as the likes of Kenobi.

And yeah blaster bolts are small building level. ChaosTheory123 did two calcs in this regard. One was for a heavy blaster pistol wielded by Hondo and another was for the DC-15S blaster rifles of Republic Clone Troopers.

A single shot from a heavy blaster pistol = 16 kg TNT

A single shot from a DC-15S = 40 kg TNT

Lina_Shields · Oct 9, 2016

Now I am wondering, how much time has passed during the end of Revenge of The Sith and the time where Ahsoka dueled Vader? I remember hearing that Anakin lost a lot of his force powers as Vader, and it took a significant amount of time to get all of his powers back, plus more.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

Lina Shields said:
Now I am wondering, how much time has passed during the end of Revenge of The Sith and the time where Ahsoka dueled Vader? I remember hearing that Anakin lost a lot of his force powers as Vader, and it took a significant amount of time to get all of his powers back, plus more.

Rebels Season 2 takes place in 3 BBY which is 3 years before New Hope and 16 years after Revenge of the Sith.

Lina_Shields · Oct 9, 2016

Ah, so Vader is very close to being in his prime, or already in his prime then. Honestly, I am very much surprised that a force user of average talent (for Jedi standards) somehow managed to reach the point only Vader and Palpatine can match her powers.

I believe that this would also make Ahsoka >>> Jedi Councillors excluding Yoda and Mace Windu, as the rest of the Jedi councillors only cap out at City level.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

Lina Shields said:
Ah, so Vader is very close to being in his prime, or already in his prime then. Honestly, I am very much surprised that a force user of average talent (for Jedi standards) somehow managed to reach the point only Vader and Palpatine can match her powers.
I believe that this would also make Ahsoka >>> Jedi Councillors excluding Yoda and Mace Windu, as the rest of the Jedi councillors only cap out at City level.

Ahsoka was never an "average talent". She was already on the level of a strong Knight as a Padawan (proven by the fact that she could briefly contend with Ventress and Grievous) and was always hinted as being very gifted in the Force. I'm honestly not surprised that current Ahsoka is Councillor level.

Also, I don't think Ahsoka is so far above Councillors. She did contend with Vader but was ultimately no match for him. I believe strong Councillors such as Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Clone Wars era Kenobi, even Clone Wars era Anakin (just before he turned) would have performed similarly against Cybernetic Vader.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

Proposed upgrade for Ahsoka:

At least Town level, possibly City level (Contended with Darth Vader. Word of God states that as of 3 BBY, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are the only two people in the Empire who can take Ahsoka. She should therefore be at least on the level of Jedi High Council members.)

Sub-Relativistic, Relativistic reactions augmented by precognition

So what do you people think?

Lina_Shields · Oct 9, 2016

The issue with the rating above is that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are rated Small Island level, thus Ahsoka would automatically scale via word of God.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

Lina Shields said:
The issue with the rating above is that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are rated Small Island level, thus Ahsoka would automatically scale via word of God.

Vader and Sidious may be the only two people in the empire who can take Ahsoka but I don't think that should be taken as proof that she is equal to at least Vader. As we saw in the Season 2 finale, she could contend with Vader but was ultimately no match for him and managed to only get a good hit on him when his attention was somewhere else.

So Vader is still >> Ahsoka

The_Everlasting · Oct 9, 2016

One other thing to consider is that Ahsoka managed to survive an explosion powerful enough to leave Vader limping, elaborated on more by Chaos here.

Also, @Soldier, note that Filoni said "match blow-for-blow" not something like "strong enough to defeat".

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

The Everlasting said:
One other thing to consider is that Ahsoka managed to survive an explosion powerful enough to leave Vader limping, elaborated on more by Chaos here.
Also, @Soldier, note that Filoni said "match blow-for-blow" not something like "strong enough to defeat".

We didn't get a clear look at Ahsoka and don't exactly know what state that explosion left her in.

But we see in the Season 2 finale that Vader was beginning to dominate her a couple of minutes into the fight.

I'll just go re-watch that episode and get back to this later.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 9, 2016

The Everlasting said:
One other thing to consider is that Ahsoka managed to survive an explosion powerful enough to leave Vader limping, elaborated on more by Chaos here.
Also, @Soldier, note that Filoni said "match blow-for-blow" not something like "strong enough to defeat".

Okay I went and re-watched the episode. She was going toe to toe with Vader for a good while and he wasn't dominating her.

I agree with you and Lina Shields.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 10, 2016

Bumping.

So what is the deal with these upgrades? Accepted or not?

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 10, 2016

Hop thinks it would be best to implement them, with the links from above, and alink to this thread.

Lina_Shields · Oct 10, 2016

I have a proposition in mind for EoS 3 Ahsoka.

Attack Potency: At least Town level, likely Small Island level with Force Amplification (Able to match Vader in combat; word of God states that as of 3 BBY, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are the only two people in the Empire who can take Ahsoka)

Striking Strength: At least Class GJ (Was able to match Darth Vader in combat)

Durability: At least Town level, likely Small Island level with Force Amplification

I am not sure where the whole Town level thing comes from for the Jedi/Sith, as we are supposed to take on the highest showings of said character (unless it's an attack that requires specific charge time). That being said, you can interchange Small Island level with City level if you feel like it.

That being said, I am okay with this upgrade. I would like the calc team to check the above calc however.

The_Everlasting · Oct 10, 2016

@Lina

The Town level is from two feats from Vader, and it's set as a low-end from what Chaos mentioned once (Can't remember the exact details).

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 10, 2016

That seems good. Oh yeah, but let's def get a quick review on this first, though.

Lina_Shields · Oct 10, 2016

I have edited the upgrade proposal according to Everlasting's suggestions.

The_Everlasting · Oct 10, 2016

@Lina

Don't forget that Ahsoka survived the destruction of the Ancient Sith Fortress, which was powerful enough to leave Vader limping.

Lina_Shields · Oct 10, 2016

Hmm, would this mean that Ahsoka is flat out comparable to Vader? Considering that Vader >> most Jedi, and Ahsoka tanked a fortress blowing up (that had Vader limping), it would seem so...

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 10, 2016

She is his apprentice after all, her rank as Padawan doesn't mean she's weak. Come on, Padawan Anakin was almost good enough to defeat Dooku. And hardly a few years later he straight up soloed him out of anger.

EnderShadowr215 · Oct 10, 2016

@Lina If she did truly survived the explosion of a fortress from what was being discussed here, then the answer would be yes. If not, then it still be comparable between Ashoka and Vader in the Clone War anime series plus the comics series to a reasonable extent.

Soldier_Blue · Oct 11, 2016

Hop Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
She is his apprenctice after all, her rank as Padawan doesn't mean she's weak. Come on, Padawan Anakin was almost good enough to defeat Dooku. And hardly a few years later he straight up soloed him out of anger.

Padawan Anakin wasn't "almost good enough to defeat Dooku". He got his ass handed to him. As of the start of the Clone Wars, Windu and Yoda were considered the only two members of the Jedi order capable of contending with Dooku.

As for the duel aboard the Invisible Hand, Dooku was facing two Councillor level combatants at the same time. He managed to down one and only lost to the other after he went into a rage and due to his own fatigue. This is similar to what happened in Legends canon to Kao Cen Darach during the duel aboard the Korriban space station. Many people downplay both of them and fail to see that they contended with two opponents and downed one; and that fatigue was the primary cause of their defeats with the secondary cause being their killers being amped by Force Rage (which is actually a thing).

Soldier_Blue · Oct 11, 2016

Lina Shields said:
I have a proposition in mind for EoS 3 Ahsoka.
Attack Potency: At least Town level, likely Small Island level with Force Amplification (Able to match Vader in combat; word of God states that as of 3 BBY, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are the only two people in the Empire who can take Ahsoka)

Striking Strength: At least Class GJ (Was able to match Darth Vader in combat)

Durability: At least Town level, likely Small Island level with Force Amplification

I am not sure where the whole Town level thing comes from for the Jedi/Sith, as we are supposed to take on the highest showings of said character (unless it's an attack that requires specific charge time). That being said, you can interchange Small Island level with City level if you feel like it.

That being said, I am okay with this upgrade. I would like the calc team to check the above calc however.

The town level thing came from the following:

1. Plo Koon has a few Kiloton TK feat in The Clone Wars (Season 1 Episode 2).

2. Vader bringing down to the ground a ship with town level durability with such force that it was destroyed on impact (Lords of the Sith novel which is canon)

3. Vader casually strolling through a town level explosion (in the new Disney canon comics).

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 11, 2016

"ass handed to him"

No. An example of getting your ass handed to you is when Sidious rekt three highly trained and respected Jedi Masters in under 5 seconds. Anakin at least held out a few minutes, and nearly had a few strike opportunities. Of course it being Star Wars it's not like Lucas or the actors would point out certain openings in such an unrealistically fast fight.

Anakin was fighting the dude for minutes on end (while that sounds short, you should see how long most IRL and other Star Wars fights last.) and held out for longer than Obi-Wan did, all things considered. Most real life fights (i.e. street fights, not WWE or UFC, which are both top class and scripted fights, some say UFC isn't but I don't believe it) go out in a minute or 2 unless it's more of them wrestling, than striking.

As for the Invisible Hand, Dooku had help and took advantage of Obi-Wan's short vulnerability. Anakin won because Dooku pulled a Vader and pissed off a young Skywalker, helping him unless more of his potential that he was trained to restrict. However, not only did he do that, he had to save his master, and rescue the Chancellor. He had to win. Dooku, however was overconfident, hence his line "Good... twice the pride, double the fall", signifying to the audience he's still a cocky duelist.

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer · Oct 11, 2016

Now for the Kanan upgrades, he should logically scale very much, not to mention his other feats, like standing up to Darth Maul.

As for the Vader comics @Soldier pointed out, are those either Vader Down, or the Darth Vader annuals with the first issue being when Vader went to Shu-torun?

Soldier_Blue · Oct 11, 2016

Hop Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Now for the Kanan upgrades, he should logically scale very much, not to mention his other feats, like standing up to Darth Maul.
As for the Vader comics @Soldier pointed out, are those either Vader Down, or the Darth Vader annuals with the first issue being when Vader went to Shu-torun?

Maul no longer identifies as a Sith. He dropped the Darth title and now goes only by the name of Maul.

If you're asking in which comic Vader's town level durability feat takes place in, then that is in the Marvel Star Wars comics. It takes place in the chapter where Luke goes to Cymoon 1 (forgot the name so I had to do a quick google search) to destroy an imperial weapons factory.

Kanan upgrade

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