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Timeless Voids Standards Issues (Staff only)

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Antoniofer

Antoniofer

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A recent issue that appeared in a Dragon Ball Heros (more specific in this thread) and Kingdom Hearts revision; as introduction, DBH has a Demon Realm (don't going full detailed here as I'm not knowledgeable in the verse), is repeatedly and (apparently) consistently to be a place outside of time, what we commonly define as Timeless Void, in whose case according to our rules, they would qualify as having Infinite Speed.

Now the issue, the verse nowhere state this to be a speed feat in no form or shape, aka, speed is not a factor that affect moving, thinking or interacting within this Timeless Void, however, according to our standards, the character does technically qualify as having Infinite Speed.

This is not an unique issue with Dragon Ball, in Kingdom Hearts for example, it was considered to gave characters Infinite Speed due moving in the Realm of Darkness, something that apparently has been consistently definied as a place where time doesn't flows. Once again, our standards "make" us qualify this as Infinite Speed (this realm even paralyze in time to anyone inside), but in-verse is quite different, as the requeriment for characters moving there is not having infinite speed, but that the characters possesses a "strong heart", with speed not being a factor here (thus, not being an speed feat in any form or shape).

You may think: these verses could be the exception, infinite or immeasurable speed is what is needed to move within these places, well, I play the old trump card of case-by-case analysis; see, Timeless Voids, Nonexistent Realms of places outside of time is something that exist in real life that author reference in their works, a place where times do not flows could be simply a place where, redundancy, time do not pass to anyone, like the Neverland from Peter Pan, or could instead a place where time do not pass with regard of other places, like that Narnia movie.

Long story-short, simply moving in a "Timeless Void", regardless of the type of void (types that were created by us btw), do not warrant a Infinite or Immeasurable Speed rating, and instead, is just another case of case-by-case analysis, the only way a character can have a certain speed rating is that the verse has needing infinite/immeasurable/whatever speed as requeriment to move in a place like that. Said that, it makes the Timeless Voids Standards kind of useless how they currently are, as they works more as a window to upgrade characters to Infinite or Immeasurable speed without the need of feats, in whose case, the page either needs to be changed to be stricter or deleted. Naturally, either way this would lead to the downgrade of several verses whose speed rating is only based in Timeless Voids that do not have speed rating as requeriment.

NOTE:

This thread is Staff Only after the highlight. If you are a regular member who wishes to contribute, please send your proposed comment to a staff member, or obtain their permission. This process helps the thread stay more organised, so we can reach a conclusion.
 
Well, i'll just repeat what i've said in the DBH thread, actually, the majority of our Infinite Speed characters come from the only fact that they moved in a "legit" timeless void, the issue is that it's something the wiki established, not an actual setting of the verses so i have indeed problems with the Timeless void page which in my point of view, add abilities never showed in the verses due to the wiki standards. So i am for the complete deletion of the page and by logic, the downgrade of every IS characters due to a Timeless Void, i don't see how rewrite the page will change something about the problem currently brought.

If a verse showed proprieties relevant for Infinite Speed from a Timeless Void/Space-Time warp or something like that, it need to be evaluated case by case and accepted/denied, the Timeless void isn't something special in fiction, author can invent any situation where IS is viable.
 
I'm leaning towards a disagreement. Why would an author not considering this a speed feat be relevant when they also don't care about almost any other feat their characters do. This to me just seems nitpicky.
 
Agree with the op, the page is creates more problems than it solves, moving inside a timeless void should require infinite or immesuarable speed, yes, but a lot of fantasy settings don't operate on this principle. Maybe there is a case to be made that characters that can move in them have resistance to time stop or something but yes this does get used to upgrade characters undeservingly.
 
Again, an author considering this as a speed feat should NOT suddenly make these suddenly invalid. There can be certain exceptions obviously (if it's inconsistent or if something contradicts this) but otherwise I'm on board with keeping the Timeless Voids page.
 
It's not about whether they count it or not, character with infinite speed should be able to cross a finite distance in 0 sec or an infinite distance in a finite amount of time, often characters that can move in timeless voids don't fit the bill.
 
Yeah gonna agree with OP. Pretty much we are extrapolating what speed rating you'd need to move in a timeless void environment when some stuff isn't really spelled out by those mechanics. I'd have to say that I don't prefer assuming infinite speed in such cases when you have stuff in fiction like lower dimensional beings moving in "higher dimensions" as the series treats said higher dimensions like they could potentially treat timeless voids / places. Its not a hard and fast rule really and you can have a plethora of abilities barring just calling it a resistance besides assuming speed is what makes a character capable of moving in such an environment.
 
Uh, a strong heart for Kingdom Hearts amps you physically which is why that was considered consistent. That's literally why like some characters are worthy of a Keyblade while others aren't. I would prefer not to argue this specifically here though since this is a site wide issue, was just mentioning because there was conveniently context excluded to make your point.

I've said this on both threads, the standards are already strict enough as it is. There is nothing wrong with the page itself since everything is backed mathematically and there are multiple criteria something has to meet for a True Void to begin with. I don't see anything wrong with the page at all, it's just that people keep trying to apply it incorrectly.

To make it clear, people are arguing that you need every feat to be Infinite practically for you to have it. The Kingdom Hearts thread literally had people listing off MFTL+ feats as being anti-feats because they were finite. The problem I honestly see is that there's honestly no really good reason to delete the page, it's all just nitpicks that aren't even that valid. If a character struggles to do something like dodge bullets consistently, then sure, don't give them infinite speed. I think case-by-case evaluation is good, but Infinite Speed practically shouldn't exist if something like this applies because you're going to have like nobody in the speed tier. It'd be the Low 1-B of speed tiers.

Also, for that Time Stop point, narratively speaking, moving in the halted flow of stopped time versus literally moving in something that would be established as having the flow of time not existing to begin with are going to be perceived very differently by an author.
 
Speaking of which, I don't personally have anything against the blog, but I think we need to elaborate more on what actually qualifies as a Type 3 void. Because simply "Transcending time" or existing "Outside of time" really isn't enough. If there's lore in which "Creator gods lived, moved, and/or fought before time began" and "Gave Birth to the Universe from the Chaos of Creation" that would be better.
 
I personally disagree. I mean, beyond the fact that the Standards were literally created with Dragon Ball in mind and the moment they qualify you guys jumped to change or remove the standards again and therefore making this all feel very targetted, this would make Infinite Speed unneccesarily restrictive. Like, OVERLY so.

Why should Timeless Voids be more restrictive than Calculations? Their line of reasonings aren't even that different- Character did this and mathematically this is what it'd need to do such a thing. Period. Just ignoring this because the author doesn't outright slap you with it shouldn't be the norm at all. If it's contradicted in the verse consistently then sure it's invalid like outlier calcs are. But the whole point is that we care about the mathematics of things to quantify it- mathematically they'd need infinite speed.

It shouldn't matter whether or not the author or writer makes it out to be an insane speed feat or whatever when authors/writers does the exact same with more normal feats and we don't bat a single eye when people do upgrades for them. The CW Flash is NOTORIOUS for this. They say Barry's "I will literally die if I run this fast" speed is Mach 7, and yet quite literally no mention of him spending an entire day fixing an already-detonated nuke being an impressive thing. But we don't care about that, all we care about is the mathematics about what we see. And what we see is Barry moving at at least relativistic speeds.
 
I don't think anyone is particularly concerned about dumb or contradictory statements from authors, my issue is—why is moving in a space where time has stopped considered a feat of speed and not one of resistance to Time Stop? Yes, moving in a space where time doesn't flow should require infinite speed but clearly there are other ways of accomplishing it, infinite speed is one of the highest speed ratings one can have and it should not be so carelesly handed out, it's requirements need to be very strict.
 
100 Megaton Tsar Bomba said:
I don't think anyone is particularly concerned about dumb or contradictory statements from authors, my issue is—why is moving in a space where time has stopped considered a feat of speed and not one of resistance to Time Stop? Yes, moving in a space where time doesn't flow should require infinite speed but clearly there are other ways of accomplishing it, infinite speed is one of the highest speed ratings one can have and it should not be so carelesly handed out, it's requirements need to be very strict.
Click to expand...
I don't think that this is simply about spaces where time has stopped. It's about spaces where time doesn't exist in the first place. In such places time isn't stopped because it isn't there in the first place.
 
Maybe saying that "T" is 0 might not actually be appropiate since "T" isn't even there.
 
The equation used to determine any given character's speed is written as:

Speed = D/T In a realm where the value of "T" is 0, the amount of time that passes is, similarly, also zero. This means that moving inside such a realm would be impossible with finite speeds, since all movement in our universe requires time (and therefore a "T" value that is greater than 0). If a character manages to complete an action inside a timeless realm, no matter how insignificantly small, the "T" value would always be 0, resulting in infinitely fast movement.

This is the basis for the page, it stated that "T" is 0 which means that time has stopped, if time didn't exist there would be no "T", it would be absent from the equation.
 
How can we actually get a speed value from the equation in that case?
 
The Causality said:
If a verse showed proprieties relevant for Infinite Speed from a Timeless Void/Space-Time warp or something like that, it need to be evaluated case by case and accepted/denied, the Timeless void isn't something special in fiction, author can invent any situation where IS is viable.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
 
At the end The Causality was more suited to created the revision than me, he summed up pretty well.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Speaking of which, I don't personally have anything against the blog, but I think we need to elaborate more on what actually qualifies as a Type 3 void. Because simply "Transcending time" or existing "Outside of time" really isn't enough. If there's lore in which "Creator gods lived, moved, and/or fought before time began" and "Gave Birth to the Universe from the Chaos of Creation" that would be better.
Click to expand...
Why would any of that be better? That is extremely arbitrary. It's the exact same feat, just spiced up with more irrelevant flowery language about 'chaos' and 'creator gods'.

If we're going to revise these feats, we will have to wipe every single 'timeless void' Infinite speedster.
 
There was a time on the wiki where the only characters I knew who were infinite were Giorno and Professor Zoom, and the latter got upgraded to immeasurable anyway. Our standards have gotten dozens, of not hundreds of times looser than then. We're not suddenly becoming strict. Infinite is supposed to be an extremely hard tier to reach. Not something as simple as hitting some trigger words.
 
As I previously mentioned, if we're going to revise our standings I think it'd be better to just wipe timeless voids clean.
 
I'm pretty confident that DontTalk provided a pretty solid explanation on why timeless void stuff was infinite back in another thread to change that to Inaccessible.

Timeless Void stuff isn't Immeasurable to the two people saying it. Infinite Speed is still treated as third dimensional movement while Immeasurable is fourth dimensional. Also, for Immeasurable, you can literally go back and forth in different periods of time which literally breaks the logic of the speed equation since the rate requires t to be something. Infinite Speed still has the value being 0 for t. It equates to undefined, but you would approach infinity if you do 1/x graphically with the larger speed increments for the y function as your x value gets smaller. The mathematical portion checks out.

I agree with Kepekley though. I would prefer they stay but if we're really forcing these revisions once again, the page honestly shouldn't exist.
 
As someone that watched Batwoman (CW) spend several months in a timeless void (and I know that is an oxymoron, I am not the one that made it) outside of all reality, I agree that there would need to be some proof they are infinite in speed besides the void stuff.
 
That thread was for feats in between Infinite and Immeasurable, and which we agreed there's no reason for such things to exist. And as we already said multiple times, Timeless Voids are heavily case by case.

However, stuff like "Return to Chaos" is just flowery language, and "Being a creator god" isn't always enough to assume they're omnipresent across time. Nor do we assumed they have all these hax abilities like Law, Physics, or Conceptual manipulation if they never demonstrated anything like those. The Golden Goddesses are the first thing that comes to mind regarding "Chaos". There's a difference between moving while time hasn't even existed yet to begin with and simply moving inside a Void that exists outside the flow of time.

Still, this came up at a really bad timing and it's more or less something DontTalk should preferably comment. And yes, Immeasurable via moving in a void is a definite no.
 
What sort of ability would being capable of movement in a literally timeless place be? Time Stop Resistance doesn't seem appropiate to me since no stopped time is actually involved.
 
What if the requirement for movement in a timeless place isn't actually explained?
 
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