• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Fallen One Key (Please read first!)

C2_of_Omegon

C2_of_Omegon

3,256
1,283
A continuation of this thread.

Before anyone gets any funny ideas, I implore you to read before having any knee jerks.

I'm quite...disappointed...to find that my last thread has been closed (in my abscense) due to bringing up a topic that I specifically disregarded. Even worse, the goal of my thread was clearly misjudged. The fact that I was not here due to real world stuff to defend my thread and keep stuff in line just makes it worse. So I will reiterate here so we're all clear.


1. This has very little to do with King Thanos and his scaling. I disregarded him in my reasoning due to the contradictory nature of what he's shown to be capable of. Do not bring him up and do not attempt justify or reason what his tier should be or the like. That is not the purpose my thread. If you wish to do so, go make your own thread about it. I don't recommend it because Ant is quite tired of it and I have made my feelings on it clear before. If you don't know what those are, I'll restate them: I concur with Ant that he is way too inconsistent and not worth trying to sort out.

DO NOT ADD TOPICS to MY THREAD JUST SO YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IT! I JUST NOTICED THAT SOMEONE DID THAT IN THE PREVIOUS THREAD!!

2. My purpose was giving evidence, justification for and discussing a new key being added to Silver Surfer's profile. Not a page. Not a profile. Just a key. This is another thing that went wrong in the previous thread, which led to it being closed. So, again, this is about a key.

TD;LR: People basically turned my thread into something is wasn't, brought up things that I wasn't talking about, and my goal was misinterepted. In response, Ant closed it. I do not wish to repeat that. Please read the above reasoning as to why for more details.

During the Thanos Wins story arc, we met some future versions of familiar characters. The most famous are King Thanos and Cosmic Ghost Rider. There was, however, another who doesn't get a lot of spotlight, surprisingly. Drum Roll...

Norrin Radd (Earth-TRN666) from Thanos Vol 2 16 001
For those not familiar, this is Silver Surfer, now known as the Fallen One. Now, the Fallen One's history is identical to the standard Earth-616's except for severl factors: he is much older (like millions of years older) and he's done enough stuff to become worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

Now, Surfer as the Fallen One has a notably brief appearence but he does do enough to actually have some legit scaling. As such, I'll detail his potential statistics.

Rating

Now, he'd still be 4-B but a good deal stronger. This is based off the fact the Fallen One has Silver Surfer's exact history and feats plus what he briefly demonstrates. His most notable one however, is killing Cosmic Ghost Rider in a single blow with Mjolnir. Now CGR's scaling is as follows:

CGR > Pre-Thanos Quest Thanos >= Adam Warlock > Olik > Ulik >= Thor/Green Hulk/Silver Surfer

Going further, we also have a brief altercation between the older Hulk and the Fallen One. He stops Hulk with a single arm with Hulk not really doing any damage and only really hurts himself. I think this shows that the Fallen One is really above his younger self. It should also be noted that he was only beaten by Thanos and King Thanos after they blindsided him with Surtur's Twilight Sword and almost immediately getting Mjolnir away from the Fallen One by cutting his arm off with the same sword, thus depriving him of his most powerful weapon.

Powers

The Fallen One key would have all the powers of base Silver Surfer plus those granted by Mjolnir.

TL;DR: I'm proposing a key for the Fallen One. A future version of Earth-616 Silver Surfer who would have eventually come into existence if Thanos had not taken steps to prevent the rise of King Thanos and erased that timeline.
 
KLOL506 said:
I literally have no idea who the fallen one is.
Click to expand...
He was the future version of Silver Surfer that comes from the same timeline that spawned Cosmic Ghost Rider. He's basically what Silver Surfer would have become if King Thanos ever came to be.

Basically, after Thanos became King Thanos and set about murdering all creation, Silver Surfer spent his time opposing Thanos. After millions of years, he eventually became worthy of wielding Mjolnir.
 
Eficiente said:
It should be another profile in any case.
Click to expand...
I thought that at one point but, there are a few things to consider.

His appearence is very brief. So brief, that really, making an entire profile is a little much. Hence why I suggest that it be a key. Backing what I just said, this is 616 Surfer. The King Thanos timeline is directly linked to the timeline 616. This is shown when Thanos decides to make sure that he never becomes King Thanos and this future is erased.

With that in mind, the Fallen One shares the same history, feats and abilities of Silver Surfer, he's just more powerful due to his experiences and adding Mjolnir's power to his own. We also have a bit of precendent for this sort of thing with Carnage. Carnage has key that comes from a What If where the symbiote bonds with the Silver Surfer.

Given that such a thing is a one-off, non-616 related comic but it's allowed on Carnage's profile, I don't see why we couldn't just add it to Silver Surfer's profile as a key. given the aforementioned factors involved.

Really, though, I don't truly mind either way. Key or page, it wouldn't be hard to implement, given everything involved. That said, Ant was pretty set against it being it's own page...that's part of the reason my other thread got closed.
 
Well, I was stressed out and tired when I closed the thread. On second thought, we do have a profile for The Keeper, who is a similar character.

However, this is an alternative future timeline version of the Surfer, who only appeared briefly and scales to Thanos, whose power level was all over the place in this story. Even if we accepted it, all that would happen is a separate profile with the combined powers of the regular Silver Surfer and regular Thor.
 
I'm neutral on a page being created for him. While he is pretty cool conceptually, his appearance was so brief that its barely even worth mentioning, and he's basically just an amalgam of two characters to begin with. I don't see any harm in making a page for him, but I'm obviously in no rush to see one made
 
Yes, there are two main issues here: His unremarkable brief appearance, and scaling to Thanos, who had no set power level in this story.
 
See, this is what I told AshenCrow777, that his appearence is so brief that I didn't know if people would consider it noteworthy enough. However, Schnee One pointed out that we have key for Cosmic Carnage on Carnage's page.

Cosmic Carnage is what would happen if the Carnage symbiote bonded to Silver Surfer and is a combo of the two. Based on that, I said that I would see if we could get the Fallen One added as a key.

As for scaling, the Fallen One does have another feat to scale to: killing Cosmic Ghost Rider in a single shot.

That said, I'm very neutral on the matter, and a more as an experiment than anything else. Mainly because Cosmic Carnage being on Carnage's page made raise an eyebrow.
 
Cosmic Carnage actually appeared in-continuity, but I think that key should be removed as well, as it was only very briefly.
 
Why not jts give Silver Surfer the hammer with the abilities of Thor and that's pretty much it no need to scale him from inconsistent Thanos?
 
A new profile for such a brief and swiftly killed off character from an alternative timeline seems pointless.

We should close this thread.
 
Hmm. I am getting rather tired of this though.
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. I am getting rather tired of this though.
Click to expand...
I do not mean to be rude but maybe you should unfollow this thread and come back later when you are less "tired of this" I'm sorry but I would like to avoid what happened last time when you prematurely closed the thread without any warning and just said to drop the subject.


I would rather like to avoid this again.
 
@Schnee

I usually do, but I am the only staff member knowledgeable about Marvel who seems interested in handling this.
 
Anyway, there are thousands of "What if?" alternative timelines versions of Marvel characters with very brief appearances and nearly nonexistent impact. This version of the Silver Surfer is no different from the rest of them, and is not important enough to be featured here.
 
Antvasima said:
I usually do, but I am the only staff member knowledgeable about Marvel who seems interested in handling this.
Click to expand...
Wait what marvel is a pretty big verse why is there only one knowledgeable for something that big???
 
@Ashen

There are a few others, but most of them are currently busy, and this is also a rather unimportant subject to bother them with. It is also wasting my limited time that could be used on more important tasks.
 
@Schnee

I have never noticed any particularly deep knowledge about Marvel Comics from you in the past, but am obviously open to help from other staff members.
 
Anyway, again, we cannot feature any unimportant alternate timeline version of mainstream Marvel characters that only made an appearance for a few pages. There are tens of thousands of them. This one only feels more prominent because it is recent.
 
I k ow this is old but new comics as shown that Silver surfer black as basically became like the fallen and like the fallen one he controls and is made of black matter
 
I still don't understand the key thingey for Fallen One. Alternate Timelines are on the same level as Alternate Universes. Fallen One can get a separate profile, sure, but for the love of God don't put a "possible" version of the character on the canonical 616 page.

Isn't Cosmic Carnage the Earth 928 version of the character? Nonetheless, it should be nuked from the Carnage page, as even if it is canonical, it should be treated the same as we treat Venom hosts, where we add keys with respect to the host, not the symbiote.
 
I agree that we need to remove various profiles and statistics keys for very temporary and unimportant power-ups and alternative timeline Marvel & DC Comics characters.
 
I think that'll be fine, but it needs to be considered by a case-by-case basis, and probably would need a separate thread as it may be time-consuming and possibly heated.
 
But future king thor despite being an other universe timeline we know that he's is the same thor in the 616 main cannon universe Jason Aaron keeps making tie in between him and Thor.

Now the same thing with fallen silver surfer now all black surfer is literally becoming the fallen one.

But OK let's do a fallen one profile, an old king thor profile too.
 
Both of those profiles would be very hard to scale properly. I would prefer if we avoid it.
 
Antvasima said:
Both of those profiles would be very hard to scale properly. I would prefer if we avoid it.
Click to expand...
King Thor is obviously on the same level as Gor he can literally have the same rating as him 4-B|2-A they have constantly fought each other almost on equal footings with one overpowering the other when gaining the advantage vice versa plus new King thor comic shows King thor a sun at Gorr and the guy just slices it in half casually.

Plus king Thor as possess the necrosword for a while so that rating is justified.

Silver surfer can just get the abilities of normal silver surfer (they have the exact same background and now possibly future) so a 4-B rating would be good with an unknown and he was worthy of miljonir so he can get some abilities that comes with it.


I'm not saying we should make him celestial level just logically scale him to his Canon form and add an unknown rating plus the hammer until more info comes into light.

But king Thor is obviously Massively above current thor especially when he has the Phoenix force and fought against sorcerer Supreme/iron fist/starbrand/spirit of vengenxe doctor doom.

Yes ridiculous but still Canon within his own timeline.
 
The problem is that traditionally Odin has been portrayed as at least tier 2-C, but King Thor, who should technically be equal, has never been portrayed anywhere near these levels.

Similarly, the Fallen One was only supposed to be as strong as the Silver Surfer + Thor taken together, but could still pose a threat to Thanos, who killed Galactus and had Black Bolt kill Celestials.

Neither of their stories make sense from a power-scaling viewpoint.
 
You see, he went past Odin. In fact, the odinforce is called the "thorforce" now.

He has several great feats including-

Tanking a punch from Galactus equal to a billion supernovaes(not flowerly speech if you have read the cmic all the way till the last issue), hurting him with blasts and hits.

Galactus vs thor 1
Tanking two point blank blasts from a sated Galactus

Galactus vs thor 2
Matches the energies of Galactus
Galactus vs thor 3
and we know that Odinforce Thor has great feats and once Odin dies the force will be ome Thor's.
all these feats were made in the first volume of King Thor to show how powerfull he is, even Odin could not fully match a Sated Galactus.

Plus later on Thor gains the Necro sword (it should be a key)to truly end the fighr since him and Galactus were literaly equals.

later on in recent issues Loki gains the necro sword and we see King thor taking him on (The mutant Ulysses saw a possible future where this conflict would occur, was forseen in civil war 2.) with slight difficulty and he was holding back(not that it would have changed much) because he still cared about Loki as shown in the fight against gor when he throws a sun at him.

plus on a side not Thor blew up a planet filled to the brim with Napalm when fighting againt loki while they were standing on it and at the origin point of the explosion.

and lets not forget Logan given him the pheonix force (that was obviously a power boost) King Thor is obviously above Odin by these few feats and we know how Jason Aaron feels about Odin plus King thor is obviously written above Odin.

theres no reason not to put king thor

'4-B| 2-C | At least / possibly 2-A, 'higher when amped by the necro sword / received a permanent boost when Logan gave him the full power of the pheonix force.|unknow|

King Thor is much more easier to scale than Fallen one silver surfer because he is much more consistent , and in is story hes either fighting cosmic entities or just fight people amped by cosmic beings.

im willing to leave fallen one if we come to an agreement to keep King thor, i mean fthe guy as no anti feats at all theres no reason to not make him powerfull so far he is as powerfull as Odin force King Thor and Rune King thor (probably the only thing diffrent are the hax's) so are we good?
 
and the only story that dosent makes sense is the Thanos Win story which the Fallen one is part of aside from that? Saying King Thor story are inconsistent is simply falseas shown above.
 
None of these feats portray him anywhere near a 2-C scale as far as I can see.
 
@Weekly

What profile are you talking about? A King Thor one?

You cannot arbitrarily create profiles for Marvel characters with few showings and extremely incoherent statistics.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Roirr
  • Locked
Silver surfer upgrade (marvel Comics)
2 3 4
Replies
126
Views
6K
Antvasima
Antvasima
BEYONDER19999
MCU High 6-A Upgrade‽
Replies
22
Views
923
BEYONDER19999
BEYONDER19999
Ayewale
  • Locked
3/C 3-A AP Black Bolt
Replies
19
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Not_Icarus
Small Iron Man Speed Question/Revision (Possibly Lifting Strength Too)
Replies
4
Views
781
Excellence616
Excellence616
VeryGoofyToddler
Divine Creator(Marvel Comics) Profile
2
Replies
79
Views
6K
VeryGoofyToddler
VeryGoofyToddler
Back
Top