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Lavos and Chrono Revisions + Moveset Additions

ZephyrosOmega

ZephyrosOmega

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I feel like this needs some discussion.

So Lavos is currently treated as having Passive 5D absorption in his Dream Devourer and Time Devourer keys. This is a bit of a problem for a couple reasons.

High 2-A Nomming:

First, Lavos is only "At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A". Lavos scales from the chrono cross, which is only POSSIBLY 5-Dimensional. However, in many of his threads with 2-A versions, the opening argument is often "Lavos wins via Passive 5D Absorption". That's something that needs to be addressed.

Lavos' Absorption is not definitively 5D.

It's still treated as such for whatever reason, Even when the High 2-A key is specifically not being used. This is more of a general PSA and I can't really force people to agree with this, but unless Lavos himself is being treated as High 2-A, his absorption shouldn't be.

Speaking of 5D...

I fully admit at the outset that this may be due to the fact that I'm not finished playing Chrono Cross yet (loving it BTW) but Lavos' 5D justification seems... kinda weak. What's listed on Serge's page is "Merged all universes into a higher-dimensional plane". But that's it. As far as I know, just saying something is a "higher dimensional plane" isn't grounds enough for a buff from 2-A to High 2-A. It's entirely possible there's more, i'm not an expert, but if there is greater justification than that (Scans would be nice), It should be added to the page. If not, I think his High 2-A key should be removed, as should Serge's.

Update: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1007954

Found the stuff. The existence of dimensions in Chrono seems fine, but a single statement from Schala about "evolving into the next dimension" really doesn't seem like enough Justification.

Is it Passive or Not?

People argue this a lot on most Lavos threads. Not much to say other than I think there needs to be a definitive answer from the knowledgeable Chrono peeps (I'll join that list someday, I'm playing through Chrono Trigger DS and Chrono Cross as I write this).

Moveset Additions

This one's simple. Basically, Lavos has a big-ass hax wall, but also doesn't have any of the many moves he can use listed on the page. I propose that they be added to get a good idea of what he uses in a fight. The same goes for Serge, since he can use any type of magic, and yet unlike the Chrono Cross crew, he does

Additions for Serge

On that note, the pages of everybody that isn't harle and lavos are super barebones. These people fight among the most haxxed 2-As out there, and yet they don't have a single resistance listed. Chrono Trigger's cast should have way more resistances based on fighting Lavos (Again, not sure which ones since i'm not super knowledgeable as of now), and Serge needs the same, as well as his current page to be expanded to include all of his abilities.

In addition, he should be completely immeasurable for fighting Time Devourer Lavos.

Here's the proposed revision: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ZephyrosOmega/sandbox4

Chrono Cross page

It's like the triforce. Macguffin gets an item page.

That's about it, I think. TLDR:

-Playable cast needs resistances + ability expansion

-Decide on whether or not Lavos' absorption is passive or not (Resolved: Lavos can passively absorb attacks directed at it; however, it does not passively absorb things like dreams, universes, or opponents.)

-Removal of High 2-A keys from Lavos and Serge

-Treating Absorption as 2-A or High 2-A depending on the key used

-Chrono Cross (The item) needs a page
 
High 2-A Nomming:

I'm not the one who did Serge's profile so truth be told I'm neutral on the Possible High 2-A. Back then there was a thread on it largely discussing this stuff which ended with the addition but It has been ***so*** long that I'm not invested enough to dig it again.

(Edit: You found it, nice job.)

I was more neutral on it than anything back then and I remain neutral on it as of now all the same. If the rating stays, the nomming is the same thing as the max assumed level to his tier because as far as I understand hax level isn't affected by tier restrictions.

Is it Passive or Not?

If you mean Absorption... I mentioned this in a relatively recent thread, to Wokistan.

"That's one of those things that are weird in how it happens.

Sometimes it just shows what Lavos is going to absorb appearing on screen from a literal distant dimension away and it gets nommed (such as the Dreams, thoughts and memories). Other times portals appear and the thing to be absorbed gets dragged (Such as say, in the ocean palace). Other times the target starts getting it by being near it and a bunch of visual effects like sparks fly out of them (Magus). Other times the target just gets dragged towards it like by a vortex (Schala and the Party). Other times still the entire screen just goes black and then when lights come back it's inside the thing (Mammon Machine)."

And then there are the Dragon Gods who kind of got integrated into Lavos so hard that seemingly the actual thing was in the DBT (Literally outside the infinite multiverse/in the dimensional void) and it happened anyways.

...On the other hand, Absorption of Magic, attacks and whatnot that fall within what Lavos may absorb are indeed passive. For example in the Dream Devourer fight you can't attack it with magic or physical attacks alike in varying phases of the fight because Lavos just straight up heals the damage that it would cause by absorbing it all from the get go.

This is probably something of a miscommunication that arises from the fact that Lavos has a ton of different absorptions for varying purposes, some of which are most definitely passive while others recquire some sort of action to be taken, which is not always the same.

Moveset Additions

...I should definitely have found the time to do this stuff back when I had the time to help on editing the additions. Augh.

Additions for Serge Same as the above (Incidentally, I actually made Harle's profile and found the time proper to add her stuff back then. That's more or less the main reason why her profile and Lavos' has their stuff while others like Serge are... Well, that way). While still on topic, I had actually made a downgrade thread for some of his stuff back then which sadly never quite got enough input to go through.
 
Ye. As far as I remember the only straight up passive ones are those in relation to Magic and Energy attacks as well as Magic anything. Then there's Physical damage which as Dream Devourer results in the attacker's entire MP being reduced to 0 by automatic Mana Reaver.

The others (like say, nomming the opponent themselves) always recquire some action, though the method tends to vary as pointed above.
 
Do you know what abilities Serge has in Radical Dreamers? Does it deserve a separate key for abilities?
 
I legitimately don't remember his radical dreamers having anything much worth noting other than your everyday superhuman physical characteristics. magic (Not entirely sure even on this one) and such.

If anything, I think the best would be to separate the Chrono Cross powers from the Radical Dreamers ones with a "|".
 
I myself do find the higher dimensional plane thing justifying 5D questionable since 4D universes would exist in a 4D space. If something is 4D it's already higher-dimensional.
 
Mmm... The reasoning is a bit more complex than that.

Chrono Cross does make qualitative difference between dimensions an stablished thing. We see this by say, the Temporal Vortex. Quoting myself on it:

"2-D BFR is originally from Linx/Dark Serge sending Serge to the Temporal Vortex, and Harle who is just an aspect of the Time Devourer/Lavos being able to walk in and out of it at will or bring Serge back to or out of it as well. Both FATE and Linx need the Frozen Flame which is but a fragment/link to connect with and make use of Lavos' powers for the sake of several purposes and powers of theirs. There isn't generally one thing that Linx or FATE do that Lavos shouldn't be able to. As for why it's 2-D, it's displayed as such, looking like mere paintings as you can see here and here being no more than a 2-D painting in its totality , later referred to as a DimensionVortex, with Sprigg saying that Physical Beings do not simply wander into this world: "Hmm... I figured you for another wanderin' spirit... 'ow many yearz has it been since a physical bein' wandered into this world...? Very strange indeed..." as it's removed from Reality and you need to open a door back into it

Where if you commit a single mistake "You will never make it back to the real world". Furthermore, the enemies fought there are Total Chaos, painting like beings who can become immune to any manner of physical contact by simply turning sideways as they turn much like a mere line . And the Temporal Vortex is also a world without substance, unlike Reality."

...Meanwhile Schala had, while merged as/with the TD, Cosmic Awareness of the full scale of the multiverse. And she mentioned the unification of all time almost in the same quote so next dimension here couldn't just really mean that.

While definitely not enough to make me more than neutral on it, it's relatively clear that the verse does take those matters rather seriously.

As a side fact: At the game's ending post that next dimension quote, the producers go as far as showing us Kid Schala Zeal existing in Reality with the implication that the world/Kid transcended to become one much like our own being implied in one of the guidebooks . Somehow.
 
Lavos should still have Passive Time Manipulation and temporal BFR as he did that even when he was only partially awaken after Magus's battle or in Magus's backstory
 
The stuff Fate excepts looks good, but you could also ask the Real Cal Howard.
 
The High Multiverse+ stuff might not stay, but that still needs to be discussed as Fate is neutral on the matter.
 
Following this because that last Lavos thread went to sh*t (and I don't feel that sorry for any contribution to that, cause it was derailing anyway).
 
Seems that almost everyone agrees with Fate (although I would like to see what other ability additions can be given to character's that are not Lavos since the Chrono page's are a little bare bones at the moment).
 
Would any changes regarding the "passive" 5D absorption and the High 2A invalidate any of the recent matchups Lavos has won or lost? Cause I feel like it definitely will.
 
eh

Basically all of them can stay besides Unicron maybe, nothing much changes there. Lavos didn't beat Madoka through 5-D conceptual nomming. It beat her via 4-D conceptual nomming.
 
Don't care too much for Vs Threads anyway, but anyway, Ultima Reality's input could be appreciated.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
eh
Basically all of them can stay besides Unicron maybe, nothing much changes there. Lavos didn't beat Madoka through 5-D conceptual nomming. It beat her via 4-D conceptual nomming.
Click to expand...
That is true, unfortunately.

From a totally not-so-salty Madoka fan :p
 
Another possibility for Lavos is that he only would have become High 2-A AFTER absorbing the Chrono Cross.
 
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