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Oryx VS Grandfather spider

So can we just assume that Oryx is the strongest 2-B and stop making stomp matches?
 
Dvorak1902 said:
How else are we gonna be sure?
Also, Khorne vs Oryx is too good to let it pass.
Click to expand...
Bartleby beat Khorne though... and Spider = Bartleby.

Also: "Can Grandfather Spider resist Oryx's passives?"

Judging by Oryx's profile I'm assuming you mean spacetime warp and existence erasure. The answer to both is yes, and ironically, it's passive for Spider too.
 
Ben CleverName said:
Judging by Oryx's profile I'm assuming you mean spacetime warp and existence erasure. The answer to both is yes, and ironically, it's passive for Spider too.
Click to expand...
"Corruption, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Reality Warping, Existence Erasure, Mind Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Possession via his ability to Take"
 
Dvorak1902 said:
@Ben
Ok, I thought he was inferior to the Tree.

So this is the definitive match?
Click to expand...
He's inferior in regards to how we see him in the game due to Raven constantly screwing him over and Bartleby just sitting idley by for no reason. At full-power he's actually implied to be the strongest of the Three, being able to do something on his own which the other two had to (or chose to) do together.

Not sure what you mean by "is this the definitive match?" though.
 
Dvorak1902 said:
Ben CleverName said:
Judging by Oryx's profile I'm assuming you mean spacetime warp and existence erasure. The answer to both is yes, and ironically, it's passive for Spider too.
Click to expand...
"Corruption, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Reality Warping, Existence Erasure, Mind Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Possession via his ability to Take"
Click to expand...
. . . Yep. Literally, all of those abilities are covered by Dispel All LOL
 
Wokistan is Destiny's expert so you should ask him to come. But give him a little break because he's responded to Oryx matches all day.
 
Ionliosite said:
Which are Spider's passives?
Click to expand...
Dispel All and Debilitate both act as passive abilities and forceful ones. Dispel All lives up to its name in that it can dispel literally every type of ability in the game, which includes but is not limited to abilities such as "Corruption, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Reality Warping, Existence Erasure, Mind Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Possession via his ability to Take", this is scaling from him counterbalancing the other cosmic beings who have those abilities as well. Dispel All also drains the target of whatever power it would take them to use their abilities normally.

Debilitate works similarly in that it debuffs your damage output, healing/regenerative abilities (up to Mid-Godly) and "accuracy" (which basically means your 'ability' to perform any ability) down to 100%. Individually.

Whereas Dispel All will drain an opponent from their enemy and then go away after one use (or more depending on how often it's put up), Debilitate is much more versatile, because even if you get rid of the attack debuff, you still have the Regenerationn debuff and accuracy debuff stacked on top of you.
 
It looks like Spider does have the passive ability to deal with Oryx's second key fairly well.

Does Spider have to keep constantly casting Dispel All to keep the effects working? He kind of needs it to survive in Oryx's Throne World.
 
His passives are almost everything in this key. If those are resisted, there's still the matter of his active abilities and how he can just take resistances away from people.
 
GalaxianAegis said:
It looks like Spider does have the passive ability to deal with Oryx's second key fairly well.
Does Spider have to keep constantly casting Dispel All to keep the effects working? He kind of needs it to survive in Oryx's Throne World.
Click to expand...
Dispel works once-per-casting, but as I said it's both passive and forceful so it probably wouldn't be too much of a problem I don't think.

"His passives are almost everything in this key. If those are resisted, there's still the matter of his active abilities and how he can just take resistances away from people."

If we choose to scale from weaker bosses then the same can be said about Spider with regards to passive abilities. Also... Shadow magic can take resistances away too, and not just Shadow.
 
Don't think you can necessarily scale every ability a weaker boss has to a stronger boss just because one boss is stronger without some sort of in verse reason to do so, though.

Resistance negation's a resistance because some guardian weapons and abilities can do that but you can't do it to him normally and even when you take away his special resistances you still can't really damage him.

There's also the matter of if Spider can even act in the Throne World, considering the Vex couldn't until they got a mind specifically to deal with the Throne World
 
Wokistan said:
Don't think you can necessarily scale every ability a weaker boss has to a stronger boss just because one boss is stronger without some sort of in verse reason to do so, though.
Resistance negation's a resistance because some guardian weapons and abilities can do that but you can't do it to him normally and even when you take away his special resistances you still can't really damage him.

There's also the matter of if Spider can even act in the Throne World, considering the Vex couldn't until they got a mind specifically to deal with the Throne World
Click to expand...
"Don't think you can necessarily scale every ability a weaker boss has to a stronger boss just because one boss is stronger without some sort of in verse reason to do so, though."

We do have a reason. It's Bartleby. Bartleby is the source of magic in the Spiral and as such each of the weaker bosses are drawing off of him in order to receive their passive abilities. Since Spider is regarded as being equal to Bartleby we can then scale the same thing over to him and then add on to all of the passive abilities that Shadow magic granted other beings.

"Resistance negation's a resistance because some guardian weapons and abilities can do that."

Same goes with Spider and the fact that resistance negation literally just doesn't work on some characters.

"but you can't do it to him normally and even when you take away his special resistances you still can't really damage him."

Okay... why not? Just saying "you still can't really damage him" can imply any number of things ranging from actual reasons to nothing but wank. Until we hear the reason behind it, it's literally nothing more than conjecture.

Also, if you want to argue that Oryx "will just eventually become 2-A", then what's he doing fighting 2-Bs? lol
 
Passive scaling: People don't get powers that they give to others by default, and if Bartleby shows up and decidedly does not have those passives then that would take precedence. Having the actual abilities makes more sense, but that doesn't mean they're passives for Bartleby.

Again, just because he's the source doesn't mean everything scales to him. Is the resistance due to drawing from him?

Doesn't need a reason. Before taking away his resistances, game just says "immune" when you try and shoot him. After doing it you get actual damage numbers but his health doesn't actually reduce and all you can do is stagger him to use the thing that actually will do damage to him.

Hey the PCs killed him before he got to 2-A in story so it's not like an impossible thing. Doesn't do it immediately (though you took a lot of steps to cripple his growth and make him essentially starving when he fought you) but it was enough of a thread to get the Vex to enlist the aid of the Guardian. Vex are also trying to kill humanity.
 
Alright. I am going to address my arguments then address Wokistan.

Spider wins because he is simply better in every way of the turn. Firstly, he does resist Oryx's passives. In fact, he is resistant to his own Shadow Magic, which has the abilities listed on the profile (And others that need to be CRT), and he has very high resistant to conceptual levels of magic, and the abilities of Grandmother Rave and Bartleby, most notably Concept Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Mind Manipulation ETC, so Oryx's passive should not work. From what I have seen from Oryx threads, that is the primary argument for him, and here, well, it falls flat. Note that these abilities can be enforced and used by the cosmic three by sheer force of will or their mere existence.

Let's not even use scaling. Spider doesn't need Bartleby's dispell all. But to address that point. Bartleby is the source of all magic, and The Divine Paradox is The Player taking over Bartleby's role as the force that binds the multiversal concepts together. In this state, The Divine Paradox gained mastery over every single school of magic, because he has Bartleby's magic infused in him, giving him access to every single spell in to ever exist. If you are going to tell me Bartleby does not have dispel all, when the Divine Paradox does, then you are ignoring lore.

Let's not argue Spider can Dispel All. He can nullify regardless. He has his own form of Dispel All. His Shadow Magic. Spider's Shadow Magic passively nullified ALL the powers of a fellow Shadow User. Shadow Magic is a omnipresent conceptual force of that formed the Spiral's reality in its entirety. It can passively nullify Oryx, just like Dispel All could, and we aren't even scaling because Spider is Shadow Magic.

So argue scaling if you want, and argue "oh yeah he can become 2-A", because the fact of the matter is Oryx gets put down before he can do anything

  • Battle starts
  • Oryx gets nullified
  • Spider seals him away. His sealing spell is the same as Raven's. Said sealing spell being capable of sealing Type 1 Abstract beings like Spider himself.


Spider embarasses. Don't even need The Creator for this.
 
"Passive scaling: People don't get powers that they give to others by default, and if Bartleby shows up and decidedly does not have those passives then that would take precedence. Having the actual abilities makes more sense, but that doesn't mean they're passives for Bartleby."

Okay, that's fair enough. Though, now that I think about it I don't really think it matters if they're "passive" or not. We're talking about characters that exist beyond the boundaries of time to begin with... Passivity is kind of irrelevant, I believe.

"Again, just because he's the source doesn't mean everything scales to him. Is the resistance due to drawing from him?"

It is if it's done through magic, although some enemies we fight decidedly don't actually use magic outside of game mechanics but they still resist magic and can be negated.

"Doesn't need a reason. Before taking away his resistances, game just says "immune" when you try and shoot him. After doing it you get actual damage numbers but his health doesn't actually reduce and all you can do is stagger him to use the thing that actually will do damage to him."

Immunity in Wizard101 works in a similar fashion. The only difference is that all of the damage values turn to 0. I don't see why we can't argue immunity for Bartleby or Spider if we're going by gameplay in that regard. As I said before, there are characters who basically just ignore resistance negation.
 
Will prob get to it tomorrow
 
Not entirely sure what the reasons for Spider's votes are, but heres my two cents

Resistance negation gets resisted. No, i'm not joking that's literally on Oryx's page iirc. Spider simply being further into 2-B isn't even an issue here since they both scale to countless afaik.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Not entirely sure what the reasons for Spider's votes are, but heres my two cents
Resistance negation gets resisted. No, i'm not joking that's literally on Oryx's page iirc. Spider simply being further into 2-B isn't even an issue here since they both scale to countless afaik.
Click to expand...
"Resistance negation gets resisted."

That sort of thing exists in Wizard101 too but Shadow magic literally bypasses it completely. Resistance is a foreign concept to Shadow magic.
 
By this logic resistance to resistance negation is impossible.

Plus the entire argument you're making is potency, and resistance negation is a pretty standard Guardian ability which Oryx completely memes on.
 
Additionally, his non-passive Taking is 2-A in potency and he almost definitely opens with this, assuming the passive 2-B Taking isn't enough for whatever reason.
 
but how does that refute Spider's win conditions. Firstly, your argument makes no sense. The primary arguments for Oryx have been that people can't resist his passive abilities, your argument has no backbone since it's cherry picking the most irrelvant victory condition for Spider. Spider's Nullification, which has yet to be refuted by the way, will put Oryx down, and from that Spider seals. That is what people are saying "FRA" for, in case you haven't been keeping up. Also, 2-A is irrleevant. We are using 2-B, and Oryx won't be able to become 2-A before Spider puts him down. Spider isn't stupid, in fact he's probably the most cunning character in Wizard101, he won't let Oryx get a shot in.

Please, provide a stronger argument in how what you posted refutes any of Spider's victory conditions, because at the moment, none of that refutes any of my points.

"and resistance negation is a pretty standard Guardian ability which Oryx completely memes on."

Congratulations. Oryx can do something Malistaire in Arc 2 can. Resistance becomes even more irrelevant later on thanks to Shadow Magic.

Edit: Also, I am honestly confused in how what you're saying, so I'm going from my understanding of your words in pertains to the resistance negation. At best for Oryx, it cancels each other out. Otherwise it just is going to become a circular argument
 
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