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Totally Inconsequential Lavos CRT┬▓┬│┬▓┬│┬▓┬│┬▓┬│┬▓┬│

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Alternatively "Possibly my long promised present to Cal since it doesn't affect me anymore but".

A long, long ago, in a time forgotten to mankind and ruled by the powers of lazyness, I said I would kill a meme I helped created, then grew bored of.

That day is now.

...Lavos should have Conceptual Manipulation Type 2.

That is because Dreams in Chrono are a Concept.

They make up absolutely everything that Reality is understood as, and there is a literal Sea of Dreams above it all to which all of it returns to with life and existence in general being just a manifestation of the dreams made from it. This is anything but just what people see when they sleep.

It's told in no uncertain terms by Schala that the whole of existence is made of Dreams at the end of the series.

This actually goes hand in hand with Lavos gaining the power to interact with and consume Dreams - from there, the series keeps persistent implications that Lavos was rising to end all things in existence from it, and absolutely nothing would remain.

Now the deal with this is that even places such as the Darkness of Time - aka non-existence beyond the Multiverse are just another manifestation of dreams. You can see in one of the scans above that Schala specifically mentions that even "The words that become deleted, the thoughts that become buried" are a part of it.

To further express this, Chrono Cross presents beings of Dreams that manifest upon the world but absolutely nobody can interact with them - aptly called the Black Nightmares, the only thing that can possibly affect or interact with them is "a Song" which in this case is directly pointing to the unification by the Chrono Cross itself, which is also a melody unifying all throughout Space and Time as one. - and ends up being the sole thing in-verse that can possibly permanently put down the Time Devourer.

Now you may remember that Chrono deals a lot with the ideas of Fate, Non-Existence, Cause and Effect, Space, Time and whatnot, correct?

Now there's yet another quote from Queen Zeal pointing to this, way up there atop the Black Omen: All and Nothing, Destiny in its most essential form --- all of these notions are a form of Dreams.

This all also goes very much hand in hand with the absolutely fodder level scientists in El-Nido, who were researching Lavos...Who, by harnessing/extracting an actual fraction of Lavos' power from the Frozen Flame, would in no uncertain terms be capable of having absolute control over time and "become a presence, like God" - and these scientists were entirely aware of multiple timelines so this reinforces once again that the thing had power enough to not only destroy, but also control/alter all of existence in the verse --- given how even erased/non-existent Space Time can still be affected or further destroyed as is covered in the Res Nullius , it goes without saying that this should include the DBT as well (which is not strange, it in fact ties with Zeal's quote above).

Also goes well with Verse hierarchy given how it's literally only Dream Devourer ^ or the Chrono Cross which can do jack about them. Like how the party could actually punch the "denied of all existence" of the Res Nullius in the face but couldn't touch the Black Nightmares.

Things I'd like to see removed while at it:

Perception Manipulation - Blindness is just an status effect.

Reactive Evolution - No idea where it comes from. Comes as a surprise for me given the char's story with biology but as is I don't think anything supports this power.

Death Manipulation - Summoning the Grim Reaper does *NOT* cause instant death, the summon just calls it to do damage. Thus it's just Summoning.

Power Nullification - Nowhere near enough basis to give it this with basis on Omnilock.

Willpower Manipulation - This is a case of taking the name of a spell instead of what it does: Strong and Weak minded don't change anyone's will, they are respectively a buff and a debuff in Magical Defense.

Illusion Creation - Literally nowhere ever this happened, as far as I can possibly remember.
 
The odd part about it is: That was hardly ever used as far as I can remember, but it is kept either way (at least in the time I actually existed here as opposed to appearing once while the planets are align). But really, it should go (assuming they're still using Omnilock as reasoning). There's no solid basis for that.
 
I know I said a while ago that I only thought this would be type 3 conceptual manipulation, but now that I get to see the full evidence, I agree with it being type 2. Good job Fate.

The ability removals also make sense.
 
Heiyaz, Shadow! Thanks, and no problem. I talked a lot with others before actually moving on with this to make sure and took a looooooooong time to get all the stuff granted I also delayed doing this a lot.

That day they kind of just got partial evidence from me without telling instead of the full thing, so understandable.

Either way I'll be getting the others I had talked to before, to check on this as well (Like Prom, Ultima, Cal doesn't count) and such.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Agree because Fate is a cool guy and he deserves to be treated nicely after such a big absence.
Yeah. It's nice to have *properly* revived for this wiki this long, but as long as I can keep away from VS threads for the most part I should be more around.

Kay1
 
In all seriousness, I agree, all the evidence is there.

That's a lot of matches to be removed in that case.
 
Yeah, we've talked about this already and I supported it.
 
I guess the concept stuff seems fine, based on what I'm reading. Mainly the sea of dreams existing beyond reality that shapes it all. Conceptual manip via sleeping when

I know nothing about the removals.

Actually, a question. WHy would blindness being a status effect mean it doesn't count as a power?
 
@FateAlbane Awww, I'm honored you recognized me.

Yeah Edwardtroung2006 just kinda sent it to me prematurely.

Heh, you know Cal would've immediately been like yes to this.
 
FateAlbane said:
The odd part about it is: That was hardly ever used as far as I can remember, but it is kept either way (at least in the time I actually existed here as opposed to appearing once while the planets are align). But really, it should go (assuming they're still using Omnilock as reasoning). There's no solid basis for that.
Omnilock is actually canonically memory manip in the original game from what I can tell,
 
Wokistan said:
I know nothing about the removals.

Actually, a question. WHy would blindness being a status effect mean it doesn't count as a power?
The removals are stuff that lacks proper basis or sounds too iffy.

Blindness should not quite be removed, just listed as Status Effect instead of Perception Manipulation. Just like the Grim Reaper thing should be Summoning instead of Death Manip.
 
Yobo Blue said:
Omnilock is actually canonically memory manip in the original game from what I can tell,
Maybe, maybe not. Indeed Mother Brain's Omnilock is also called "Memory Reset", whereas those monsters or the encounters in the Black Omen just list it as Omnilock.

Regardless of what it is it's ultimately irrelevant because there's no solid evidence to Lavos having it anyways, it never uses it either and Mother Brain isn't one of the bosses it mimics.
 
Maybe, maybe not. Indeed Mother Brain's Omnilock is also called "Memory Reset", whereas those monsters or the encounters in the Black Omen just list it as Omnilock.

Regardless of what it is it's ultimately irrelevant because there's no solid evidence to Lavos having it anyways, it never uses it either and Mother Brain isn't one of the bosses it mimics.

The defense against normal lock works by protecting memories too.
 
At this point, I'll just up and assume it's Memory Manip for convenience because:

1. Lavos doesn't have it anyways. And if it has by some twist of Fate, it's a non factor since the thing never in the whole of its non-existence used it in any manner whatsoever.

2. Excluding Lavos whom I'm positive should not have it... The sole remaining beings that can use Omnilock in the series are a select few random encounters or Mother Brain who honestly is not worthy of note enough to ever get a profile.

Thus with all things considered, the skill should not need to ever come up, really.
 
Yo Fate! Welcome back

However dunno if this is enough for type 2, I don't see relevant evidence to the concept of dream being Above Reality (need to be clarified) itself/have the qualities for type 2.
 
Holy shit, Fate revising Lavos? Never thought i'd see it again. Welcome back btw.

In any case, i completely agree with the OP.
 
@Causality It is pretty crystal clear from the scans above, actually?

The entire speech Schala makes and Zeal's quote mentions all of reality and its aspects being made of Dreams and the Sea of Dreams being a place where all of it originates from/returns to. Zurvan is entirely transcendent to the verse as a whole.

The sole notion that allows everything else to be are Dreams. Not a single thing, time, space, fate/destiny, causality, life forces/forms ---- not even non-existence are excluded from this.

All and Nothing in the verse are both given shape by Dreams. Anything you may think of is given form and definition by it. The Sea of Dreams/Zurvan is explicitly treated as not being a part of it, just a place where all originates from, all is given form through Dreams and to which all returns to.

The other scans (for example Zeal's quote) also generally expand and show that it's consistent within the verse.
 
@HI3 I survived the trial of months.

@CrimsonStar Heiyaz o/ How's it going?

@The Causality Also hello again!
 
>The entire speech Schala makes and Zeal's quote mentions all of reality and its aspects being made of Dreams and the Sea of Dreams being a place where all of it originates from/returns to. Zurvan is entirely transcendent to the verse as a whole.

This is more interesting, can you defint it (a bit? just to be sure)

>The sole notion that allows everything else to be are Dreams. Not a single thing, time, space, fate/destiny, causality, life forces/forms ---- not even non-existence are excluded from this.

That make dreams shape reality itself, impressive but not a real proof of type 2 but a possibkle really good use of concept stuff

From what i know, only the Zulvan stuff seem to be acceptable for type 2, the rest isn't really proofs of type 2 as it doesn't sho to be unbound by reality. (imo the non-existent = part of dream is enough to me but if yes Nil will be type 2 and she is not Jaleous

Datty3c-11eba73c-2c28-44ab-9e5a-82418a1d64e8
 
I've been doing good. Hope the same goes for you.

Gotta say, definetly didn't expect to see you tackle on Lavos again. Kind of nostalgic lol

in case you haven't noticed, we meet in the FC/OC discord a few times. i'm the man who aimed for the dicc
 
@Causality

a. It's all over the multiple scans in the OP.

b. Lavos was going to obliterate absolutely everything in-verse while also devouring all Dreams. That includes Zurvan. Not to mention that again, the notion of Dreams alone is what allows everything else to be given form to in the first place.

Straight from the Conceptual Manip page, type 2:

"Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. 'These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts."

/\ This is textbook definition of what the scans above point Zurvan and Dreams to be.
 
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllll

I A.G.R.E.E

PS: the description of the concept page need to be improved a bit, this "vague" description can allow some concept to be type 2 by definition but it's not (like the concept of Math, of nothingness ect..)
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
I've been doing good. Hope the same goes for you.
Gotta say, definetly didn't expect to see you tackle on Lavos again. Kind of nostalgic lol

in case you haven't noticed, we meet in the FC/OC discord a few times. i'm the man who aimed for the dicc
That's nice to hear! You've been a bit silent as of late, though! Definitely so. The times long gone revived one last time... Though I have no plans on going back to VS personally, a CRT for this is indeed nostalgic.

Though Ah I see we meet again, Jack Von.
 
Yeah, i've been kind of off from the FC/OC discord, i should really go back there. Been kind of busy and all.

Indeed we do. I am close to mastering the dicc aiming arts
 
You know I wouldn't be surprised if they have something there for Chaos given how near the final arcs they actually go pretty deep there in their "meta" talks at times. The only problem is that again, it has now been an even greater forever since I last read a proper translation of the series and I can't muster the strength to go through it all again for the love of my existence.
 
FateAlbane said:
You know I wouldn't be surprised if they have something there for Chaos given how near the final arcs they actually go pretty deep there in their "meta" talks at times. The only problem is that again, it has now been an even greater forever since I last read a proper translation of the series and I can't muster the strength to go through it all again for the love of my existence.
Yea the official translation make things very weird, aaaaaaaaahhh
 
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