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Issue Regarding "Conscienceless Recovery=Getting Pass All Forms of Incapacitation"

Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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From Madotsuki to Undertale's DT users (discount Chara) and more, being related to Regenerationn, many types of Immortality and/or Time Manip. X character can regenerate/has something that triggers an action that saves him/her in certain situations, usually from physical damage, death, or having the body & soul destroyed. I want to talk about these characters, which are many and not all work the same, so, to make things simpler I will refer to their power to do their thing as Power and the awareness of knowing they have to use their power as Awareness, doesn't matter if Awareness is automatic or manual.

Ok, so, let's say the character faces a form of incapacitation in a vsthread, there are several ways this is approached:

Maybe as the incap stops the mind and/or doesn't damage the body, so the character itself can't notice the threat and doesn't use their Power, same with the Awareness.

But wait, if that character can, let's say, use the Power from a lack of a body and soul, then their Awareness just doesn't need that, right? So, if the incap just targets the body and/or soul but not the Awareness then the character can still use the Power, right? This all assuming the character doesn't have feats of facing the incapac before.

Let's say the latter case is correct and watch the monster it creates

  • Since the Awareness doesn't need body and soul then an incapacitation that puts the (body of the) character to sleep doesn't work as it doesn't put the Awareness to sleep, so the Power can be used.
  • Since the Awareness doesn't need body and soul then an incap that makes the (mind of the) character to change and have no understanding of what's going on doesn't work as the Awareness isn't affected, so the Power can be used.
  • Since the Awareness doesn't need body and soul then an incap that makes the morality of the (mind of the) character change to be an ally to his foe doesn't work as the Awareness isn't affected, so the Power can be used.
And so on with evey type of incapacitation that doesn't target the Awareness, which raises several questions such as

  • When the character sleeps, the Awareness doesn't?
  • The Awareness isn't parallel at all to the mind of the character?
  • If the character's attitude changes to be a completely different person, can the Awareness always be as the character was before?
Getting into the point: I believe that the Awareness being always completely alien to aspects of the character (such as the body, soul, etc.) is a fallacy and feats must determine how to judge this, mostly by lack of feats.
 
Depends on the character I would say. Some verses tie consciousness/awareness to a soul, others don't.

As for your last 3 questions:

  • I would say no
  • Depends on the character
  • I don't really know what this means, but I don't see why a character's ethereal "mind" or whatever wouldn't be able to change with them
 
The last 3 questions don't really matter as much as seeing if all incap that doesn't target the awareness can do something or not.
 
Say you have something like Mid-Godly, which seems to fit the bill pretty well for what you're describing. (if it doesn't, feel free to correct me.)

If someone was to say use some sort of paralysis spell on them and they don't resist, they'd be incapped just fine, in my eyes. They don't need to paralyze the awareness of the character for that, it'd just be stuck with a paralyzed vessel.

Now if the awareness can act on it's own, that's another thing.
 
More or less, with Regenerationn alone it's easier to say that incap works, if you replace the regen in the example with, say, having something that makes a duplicate of yourself when you died, or have your body and soul destroyed, would now the paralysis spell still work? Assuming it paralyzes the mind and the target has no feats of being in such situation before.
 
I don't think calling it "awareness" is accurate. More often than not, it's something that automatically happens and not something that needs to be triggered by the character.

Frisk is an example of this. According to what Flowey said, DT just automatically brings you back to a certain point in time when you die. You don't need to do it by yourself. They don't have any control over. So the character's mind being manipulated or asleep shouldn't change this at all. (It can be argued that Undertale characters needs determination to stay alive but that's another topic).

Some characters, on the other hand, might need to manually activate their powers after being destroyed. For example Monika, who needs to actively do stuff after being erased. But since her mind can keep doing stuff even when her body is erased, messing with her physical body won't prevent her from acting.

It really depends on the individual character and the mechanic behind this ability.
 
Are you defining mind and awareness differently in this context?
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Frisk is an example of this. According to what Flowey said, DT just automatically brings you back to a certain point in time when you die. You don't need to do it by yourself. They don't have any control over. So the character's mind being manipulated or asleep shouldn't change this at all.
Click to expand...
Well, without agreeing or disagreeing with this, how would this be establish in the profiles of the DT users?, nothing indicates it which raises misinformation for many.
 
Talking to efi.
 
Wokistan said:
Are you defining mind and awareness differently in this context?
Click to expand...
That would be part of the issue itself. I was referring to the mind of the character's body which, depending on who you ask, may be related to the Awarenes.
 
@Efi Pretty sure it's already stated that DT automatically rewinds time, no? If not, then it should just be added.

The main question when it comes to such things is how much damage they can sustain before the automatic power just stops triggering due to the user not existing anymore. Like, can Frisk load back from normal deaths or from EE? But this depends on the user only and not from some wide standard.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
@Efi Pretty sure it's already stated that DT automatically rewinds time, no? If not, then it should just be added.
Click to expand...
  • Frisk: "Determination, Ability to SAVE and LOAD" & "Time Manipulation, Time Travel, Timeline creation and destruction" No elaboration or evidence.
  • Flowey: "Time Travel, Time Manipulation (Can LOAD time to a previous SAVE in time, keeping his memories of it but otherwise resetting everything else)" & "Can SAVE and LOAD at any point in time as opposed to specified points" No elaboration or evidence.
  • Asriel Dreemurr: "Time Manipulation" ..just that.
  • Chara: "Immortality (Types 4, 6, 7, and 8. Reliant on the player's desire to increase their statistics)", "Determination, Time Manipulation" & "Regenerationn (Mid-Godly, able to return as long as the DETERMINATION taken from the Anomaly's SOUL still exists)" This is the best that we have and still no elaboration or evidence.
And then users think that Petrification or Morality Manipulation can win a vsthread with them.
 
Morality manip can be used to convert someone into jusy not fighting you and joining your side, so that seems fine.

If they can't forcibly activate it and the petrification is somehow non-lethal, that also seems fine.
 
Wokistan said:
Morality manip can be used to convert someone into jusy not fighting you and joining your side, so that seems fine.

If they can't forcibly activate it and the petrification is somehow non-lethal, that also seems fine.
Click to expand...
I believe the dialogue I quoted from Saikou contradicts this, and that both make good points, so I'm definitely interested to see where this goes.

Specifically for Undertale I would like to see what their profiles should say to clarify to what they can come back from and make it clear to any kind of user we have, so there may be no doubt in a vsthread from the beginning.
 
This becomes a similar argument to the whole "Transmutation and Mind Break vs. Godly regens".

Following.
 
The thing you quotes from saik says it's death activated and then don't have any control over it. That would indicate that stuff like morality and other mindhax should work so long as the target isn't dead.
 
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