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Bleach Scaling

Dr.Fix

Dr.Fix

2,426
476
Given Bleach is in the mist of another change I would like to take this time to suggest a review of the scaling. The calculations are always changing but little thought ever goes into who actually scales. It just seems to be based of current standards on the site rather then discusing the source (Bleach).

A couple things going forward.

1. Please refrain from posting X scales to Y because "insert reasons on their profile". That is counter productive to a review since it automatically assumes whatever is already there is right without any critical thinking what so ever.

2. Please cite evidence from the canon to support views on scaling.

Good Example: "Character A scales to Character B because in chap ??? A beat up B"

Bad Example: "Charater A scales to B.", or "Character A scales to B because he should not be weaker than character B."

3. Follow the rules of Scaling as set fourth by the site here .

Thanks.
 
Let's wait to discuss scaling. There's a few more calcs that need to be done and made such as AP and speed but mainly speed ( There's another Sub Rel+ feat and the Ulquiorra thing. ) so I think it'd be better to wait until everything is settled before we discuss scaling.
 
Yeah, everything is not fully settled yet since there's an on going thread about the size of las noches. That could give us a new calc result.
 
I understand but respectfully disagree and I'll explain why.

Scaling requires only the inverse knowledge. How characters from bleach scale to one another. We don't need a calc to know Espada 3>Espada 7.

On the other hand because there are so many calculations going on along with many pre-existing calculations it may be helpful to have inverse knowledge at hand when deciphering them. Calculations are largely within the domain of the calc team and their expertise on the mathmetaics of size, power transfer, etc. They are not nesacarily knowledgeable about Bleach itself and could make glaring mistakes unintentionally. For example calculating the destruction of an object as city level for a character when a much weaker chracter has a calculation at the island level.

Also, if we wait for everything to be "fiished" that could take a very long time seeing as more calcs can always and probably will be proposed.
 
None in particular, from what I can tell. I think he's trying to say that we shouldn't randomly scale characters without valid reasons.

For instance, Yhwach taking Nianzol and Askin with him to the Royal Realm does not necessarily mean they're superior to the other Sternritter. I believe this is what he's trying to convey?
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
For instance, Yhwach taking Nianzol and Askin with him to the Royal Realm does not necessarily mean they're superior to the other Sternritter. I believe this is what he's trying to convey?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about Nianzol, since he was not a member of Yhwach's elite guard. But Askin was. He even proved trouble for Urahara and destroyed one of his eyes with a casual attack.
 
@Peter

Dunno, but I disagree with the notion that the Sternritter are all comparable to each other. Not talking about Elites, even if it should also hold true for them as well.
 
@Soldier

Askin is all about hax. He was damaged by Yuushirou. Gift Ring is hax too.

Anyway, I'm gonna wait for Fix to explain what he really means.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
Dunno, but I disagree with the notion that the Sternritter are all comparable to each other. Not talking about Elites, even if it should also hold true for them as well.
Click to expand...
I'm done with my re-read of the Hueco Mundo arc and am currently re-reading the Blood War arc. I agree with the notion that thay're not all equal.

Examples:

Yama-jii one-shot Driscoll. Bazz-B managed to survive an attack from Yama-jii by countering his flames. That would require some pretty impressive reiatsu compared to Driscoll.

Mask got his ass handed to him by Renji. Bazz-B fought against Renji for a good while without even going Vollstandig.

Robert Accutrone held his own against and even injured Kyoraku, who later on fought against Lille, who should be superior to the regular Sternritter. Robert was also much older and more experienced than the other Sternritter. So him being more powerful is reasonable.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
Askin is all about hax. He was damaged by Yuushirou. Gift Ring is hax too.
Click to expand...
I forgot about that.

But it still stands to reason that Askin would be much more powerful than the other Sternritter.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
Yes, I really think Bazz is stronger than your average Sternritter.
Click to expand...
Well there is sufficient evidence to support Bazz-B in particular being above the other Sternritter.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
@Peter

Dunno, but I disagree with the notion that the Sternritter are all comparable to each other. Not talking about Elites, even if it should also hold true for them as well.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen any of that here though....unless i'm messing something
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
@Soldier
Askin is all about hax. He was damaged by Yuushirou. Gift Ring is hax too.

Anyway, I'm gonna wait for Fix to explain what he really means.
Click to expand...
I thought I was fairly clear in the OP but I'll summarize again:

The Bleach scaling around here is very old. I don't know how old, but its at least older than my membership here.

Calcs change all the time, I think we can all agree on that. When it comes time to apply those changes though no one actually thinks about scaling. When I bring it up in the past, its always "Because they scale according to our wiki". Its never discussed why they scale because of manga reasosn.

As such, newer members don't get to weigh in on scaling. Its possible some of the profiles are based off really old scaling that doesn't even take into account developments in the manga (Which ended two years ago to give ya an idea of how far back this might go).

I just want us to reexamine scaling from the perspective of the source for once. I don't want to single anyone out, but suffice to say I've read quite a few that make me ask "when did that ever happen?"
 
And to contribute to the conversation:

I agree with Solider. Its pretty clear not all sternritter are equal. Shikai Yamamoto is a good example with his attck vaporizing Driscoll, yet only dealing mild burns to three others and being tanked almost completely by Royd.

I disagree with his assesment of the Elites though. Just because you are a higher rank does not mean you are always stronger. Sometimes yes, this is shoenen after all, but its not an absolute law.


Kakashi became Hokage over Naruto

All Kages are weaker than Naruto

Shunsui is made CC by C46, not because he was the strongest (Unohana) or the smartest (Mayuri).

Lille was identified as leader by Askin, because of when he received his schrift rather than power.

Barraggan took leadership when Aizen had tea, despite Stark having a higher rank.

There are likely more but seeing as the burden of proof is on Lille I'll stop there instead of making too long a response.

Even less likely is a higher rank being so much more powerful then the others that he beats them with a fraction of his power. Robert was initially considered a stornger Strenritter during the first invasion but the power creep was real as the TYBW arc ran on. Not only do many knights have betetr feats, but robert is outright outted as being one of the weaker sternritter.

Furthermore Robert was faster than Shunsui who in turn was faster than base lille. That's a black and white case showing Robert>Lille and puts the assumption of the latter being better to bed.

This was also the case with Zommari being the fastest espada and soifon being the fastest captain.

So to sum up leadership should be taken with a grain of salt as its not even a valid method under the scaling parameters of this site. When there are feats contradicting it especialy it should be removed and the profile updated. Which brings me back to making sure new information is considered for scaling.
 
I also want to reply to Bazzb since soldier brought it up.

Off -panel are always taken with a grain of salt and are inferior to on-panel. I think we can all agree on that. That skimish between renji and Bazz was short lived and all we saw was Bazz using his second strongest attack in one panel, followed by seeing renji unhamred in the next.

Kubo dedicated many chapters to scaling renji to mask. Specifically Bankai!Renji Vaporized Vollstandig!mask>Full schrift mask>previous mask>(10 times) the mask before that>Bankai Kensei>base Kensei>Mask>Hisagi+Ikkaku+Yumichika>no cheers mask>Pre-Royal realm shikai Renji.

I remeber this was literally around christmas that year and it was like Kubo was gift wrapping a present to the fans of these forums.
 
Please summarize your last two post, a tid bit to long to read. Your higher ranking statement ia a bit false, it just depends on the series. Example, DBS,Fairy Tail,KHR etc....
 
Screen Shot 2018-07-09 at 8.50.57 AM
I rather not leave anything out and then people don't fully grasp what I'm saying thanks.
 
Yuushiro felt like a filler character to me at the last moment, but that doesn't reflect his PL. Seeing as his only feat is against Askin alongside his sis I would place him at around her level (Minus second form).
 
Dangai Ichigo said:
Assuming Yuushirou is really weak.... No I don't like Yuushirou but I don't think he's that weak either
Click to expand...
He is the current head of one of Seireitei's most powerful noble families. Byakuya notes that those born into Seireitei's noble families tend to have above average power, with heads of the families being especially powerful. Yuushiro being powerful isn't really surprising.
 
Convenient that this thread came up so soon after the Las Noches size revision. My question is what feats scale to the size of the palace?

I believe the currently decided are:

- Cero Oscuras

-Lanza

Debated:

- The rule against the release of Espada 4 and lower

Prospective:

- Now with the kind of measurements we are getting.Won't this boost at least Ichigo's long distance travel speed considering he went from the outside to the center in a timeframe we will probably need to find and agree on. Taking time burned from his fights into consideration

-Would this actually make Bawabawa somewhat impressive?
 
If anyone would receive an impressive speed feat here, it is Coyote freaking Starrk. If Las Noches really is several dozen km across (at least), then he has a casual feat whereby he likely travelled dozens of kilometres so fast that from Orihime's perception, she was inbetween Zaraki and Ichigo one moment, and in Aizen's throne room the next.
 
Lol, forgot about that one. And going back to take another look, led me to something else.

iirc Tenteikuura requires the user to know the coordinates of their target(s). So Tousen's range of reiatsu sense would also scale to the size of Las Noches.
 
With Los Noches' size being upped to 100+ km and Cero Oscuras being accepted as vaporization, I'm expecting some big numbers for everyone who scales to R1 Ulq. Question is, does Pre-Skip Bankai Toshiro scale to him due to being able to fight Released Harribel?
 
Malikobama1 said:
With Los Noches' size being upped to 100+ km and Cero Oscuras being accepted as vaporization, I'm expecting some big numbers for everyone who scales to R1 Ulq. Question is, does Pre-Skip Bankai Toshiro scale to him due to being able to fight Released Harribel?
Click to expand...
Technically all Espada are capable of Gran Rey Cero and the Espada in their Resurreccion can all use Cero Oscuras. I would say that all Espada could scale from Gran Rey Cero but only Espada 3-1 could scale from Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras.

But the larger issue is that this amount of damage is only capable via Cero Oscuras which is not in character for Espada 3-1. Yammy was going to use one in his Resurreccion, so it's sorta in character for him.

So:

R1 Harribel + Cero Oscuras > R1 Ulquiorra + Cero Oscuras > Harribel > Ulquiorra.
 
@IMadeThis

Even though CO isn't in-character for Harribel to use, she's still capable of using it which means she has the reiatsu necessary, and reiatsu = AP. So wouldn't the AP of her powerful attacks like Cascada scale to Ulq's CO?
 
Malikobama1 said:
With Los Noches' size being upped to 100+ km and Cero Oscuras being accepted as vaporization, I'm expecting some big numbers for everyone who scales to R1 Ulq. Question is, does Pre-Skip Bankai Toshiro scale to him due to being able to fight Released Harribel?
Click to expand...
1. Has that actually been approved by the calc team and a number of bleach experts yet?

2. Even if it does get amped, solider's calc put R1 Ulquiorra at Mountain level three times out of four, which is about the same as he is now.

3. As far as a list goes:

Harribel (Rank), Toshiro (>Harribel), Barragan (rank), Soifon, Hachi, Stark, Shunsui (No Bankai), Love (No Bankai), Rose (No bankai), Yammy, Pre-RR Byakuya, and post Nnoitra Zaraki.
 
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