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Downgrading Mario/Bowser

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LordXcano

LordXcano

VS Battles
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I have concerns with his speed, but for this I'm going to be addressing the Mario Galaxy attack potency/durability listings. Pleas remember I love the Mario series and I've played Galaxy 1 and 2 several times, so please do not thing I'm just some shmuck making a thread out of nowhere.

I'll start with Mario's durability. Mario is listed as "Multi-Galaxy level" for being able to take hits from Bowser who was "consuming celestial matter". First off, he ate a power star about twice Mario's height, that's really different from eating an entire galaxy. Secondly, eating something != punching with that force. Over time I can eat a gorilla but that does not mean I can punch with superhuman strength.

Mario's attack potency is listed as "Multi-Galactic" as well for "defeating Bowser who was powerful enough to gradually destroy the universe". There are two issues with this. First being that destruction via magic != having that level of durability. Second being that Bowser literally never does that. His reactor destroys the universe, not him. You beat Bowser in Galaxy 2 with some small gold meteors anyway, that isn't Mario's strength, and through this logic that'd mean that those meteors had Multi-Galactic mass despite being made from what appears to be rock.

Now I'm going to take a look at Bowser's stats.

First off, the destructive capacity is not Multi-Galactic as mentioned earlier. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though and say that the portal in the background is a black hole which means he'd have star-level creation at that level, which doesn't seem too off considering he just got the power of, well, a Grand Star. But this does not mean he has star-level punches or any of that.

His durability is also listed as "Multi-Galactic" for "surviving a black hole that ended the universe. This feat is also what likely lead credence to the "Multi-Galactic Mario" stats. However, if you play through the game you can see this is clearly not the case.

The black hole kills everyone, Mario is saved by Rosalina's power, she recreates the universe. We even see planets and ships being destroyed as they're pulled in, only to appear fine and dandy in the next scene. If this was a Multi-Galactic feat, then Princess Peach, Bowser Jr., some goombas, bees, and grass would also be Multi-Galactic level.

Just through what Rosalina describes is happening and through what happens in the next scene, it isn't hard to see that Bowser did not survive that black hole.

So where would I place Mario and Bowser from Galaxy?

Well, using the star durability calc, Mario would be country level for being able to beat Bowser (who was able to survive in a star for a few seconds), and Bowser would have country level durability. Grand Star Bowser would be 4-C via creation feats with an unknown durability and striking, although it probably isn't too high up there due to the whole being defeated through small meteors thing.
 
Creation feat = destruction feat.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't really have any complaints..
 
Promestein said:
Creation feat = destruction feat.
Otherwise, yeah, I don't really have any complaints..
Click to expand...
True I guess, it all comes down to matter manipulation in the end right? But this doesn't mean Mario has star-level durability because he can survive 3 punches from Bowser. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man is a casual universe buster via matter manipulation but I don't think a staight up physical punch from him would do equivalent damage.
 
I think that the above sounds very reasonable. I am fine with if you modify the character statistics appropriately, but let's wait to see if the other staff members are also okay with it.
 
It's been quite a while since I played through MG, but this seems fairly legit, actually. It also reminds me that stronger Lumas >> most of the rest of the cast, which is still amusing.
 
Didn't you read the thread? Bowser never did survived the Supernova, pretty sure there are even official sources saying he didn't.
 
Okay. It seems like it is all right if you modify the various Mario character statistics. If/when you need certain pages temporarily unlocked, please inform the admins.
 
also everyone died except mario and peach because they were protected (dont know for bowser)

he didnt survive the big bang but he survived the effects of the big bang (crunch)

thats why their durability is multi G
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
also everyone died except mario and peach because they were protected (dont know for bowser)
he didnt survive the big bang but he survived the effects of the big bang (crunch)

thats why their durability is multi G
Click to expand...
Well bowser did die as he didn't remember so yeah bowser couldn't survive without the needed protection
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
also everyone died except mario and peach because they were protected (dont know for bowser)
he didnt survive the big bang but he survived the effects of the big bang (crunch)

thats why their durability is multi G
Click to expand...
Well bowser did die as he didn't remember so yeah bowser couldn't survive without the needed protection
Click to expand...
well but i was talking about mario. also bowser was in his shell just dazed so he might have survived the bang
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
TISSG7Redgrave said:
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
also everyone died except mario and peach because they were protected (dont know for bowser)
he didnt survive the big bang but he survived the effects of the big bang (crunch)

thats why their durability is multi G
Click to expand...
Well bowser did die as he didn't remember so yeah bowser couldn't survive without the needed protectio
Click to expand...
well but i was talking about mario. also bowser was in his shell just dazed so he might have survived the bang
Click to expand...
Mario maybe but why when i look at the cutscene the lumas all went into the black hole indicating mario was a little bit outside of it and Rosalina sheilded peach and Mario from the blast she resetted everything so bowser was ressurected
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
You are mixing up the feats btw the games, making this more controversal and confusing than it needs to be. Bowser stats for surving the black hole is from SMG2, not SMG1.
First of all, Mario's stats are solely limited to his battle with Bowser in SMG2. His AP and Durability has nothing to do with the first game as somebody already provided evidence for that SMG1 ending. Let's go back to SMG2. In the beginning of the video, Bowser is ,indeed, abosrbing celestial matter of the universe and power stars. On top of that, the Rosalina and her Lumas in the Observatory was also caught in the mix via the comet Bowser was also absorbing. After the two phases, Bowser fell into both Black Holes twice(First time is in 10:45 and the second is in 12:25). Add in the fact what the Grand Star did to Bowser's reactor from the first game and Bowser's AP and Durability is justified. And considering the meteorites where created by Bowser in the first place, Mario's durability isn't as well. If you truly feel that Mario needs to be downgraded, I'm ok with it as long it's reaonable. I have serious doubt that it will be country level. That's way too low from taking hits(both physical via punches and magic via metoers and fire breath) from summon with the power of the Grand Star while consuming the universe.

Second, there was scan from a prima guide of the first game that stated Rosalina protected Mario and Peach from the black hole while Bowser was left behind but was still alive but shaken that he barely survived it. I, unfortunately, can't provide it since the comment section was taken down and is the only place I found it in. But it indicated that Bowser was left off from the supernova and later found in the Mushroom Kingdom, shakened from his near death experience. Futher proving why his stats are credible.
Click to expand...
trus true. i think he did survive the blast but was teleported back to the murshroom kingdom
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. It seems like it is all right if you modify the various Mario character statistics. If/when you need certain pages temporarily unlocked, please inform the admins.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have mind if it weren't for one glaring issue: He is mixing up the feats btw the games, making this more controversal and confusing than it needs to be hence why the need for change isn't justifed. For instance, he confused Bowser stats for surving the black hole is from SMG. That feat was in SMG2, not SMG1 and it was clearly labelled in both profiles.

First of all, Mario's stats are solely limited to his battle with Bowser in SMG2. His AP and Durability has nothing to do with the first game as somebody already provided evidence for that SMG1 ending that Mario did not survive that supernova. Let's look back into SMG2. In the beginning of the video I provided, Bowser is, indeed, abosrbing celestial matter of the universe and power stars. On top of that, the Rosalina and her Lumas in the Observatory was also caught in the mix via the comet Bowser was also absorbing and we all should be aware of what they are cabale of in the first and even in the same game . After the two battle phases, Bowser fell into both Black Holes twice(First time is in 10:45 and the second is in 12:25). Add in the fact what the Grand Star did to Bowser's reactor from the first game and Bowser's AP and Durability is justified. And considering the meteorites where created by Bowser in the first place, Mario's stats isn't off as well. However, if the user truly feel that Mario needs to be downgraded, I'm ok with it as long it's reasonable. I have serious doubt that it will be country level. That's way too low from taking hits(both physical via punches and celestial magic via meteors and fire breath) and harming somebody with the power of the Grand Star while consuming the universe while being able to tank said black holes twice.

Second, there was scan from a prima guide of the first game that stated Rosalina protected Mario and Peach from the black hole while Bowser was left behind but was still alive but shaken that he barely survived it. I, unfortunately, can't provide it since the comment section was taken down and is the only place I found the said evidence revolving in SMG. But it indicated that Bowser was left off from the supernova while Rosalina protected Mario and Peach and was later found in the Mushroom Kingdom, shakened from his near death experience. This futher proves why his stats are credible.
 
@DRB Okay. Maybe we should avoid the downgrades then.
 
I'm going to take DRB's comment piece by piece.

"In the beginning of the video I provided, Bowser is, indeed, abosrbing celestial matter of the universe and power stars."

Celestial matter less than the size of his *maybe* 100 mile long ship, and with the aid of said ship. Then again, consumption != attack potency/striking.

"On top of that, the Rosalina and her Lumas in the Observatory was also caught in the mix via the comet Bowser was also absorbing and we all should be aware of what they are cabale of in the first and even in the same game"

That is just a random blue comet, there's no indication that Rosalina is in there, especially since IIRC she never appears except for the final secret level.

"Bowser fell into both Black Holes twice(First time is in 10:45 and the second is in 12:25)"

True, although the fact that weird purple matter appears around him as he's falling in makes me more inclined to say they're portals, especially as every black hole up until then had a distinctive look to it. The second one even disappears right after the fight along with Bowser.

Even if they were black holes, this doesn't mean his durability is galactic? As you said in the first game the Grand Star destroys the universe but that was with a much much larger black hole and with an entire game's worth of prep time.

"That's way too low from taking hits(both physical via punches and celestial magic via meteors and fire breath) and harming somebody with the power of the Grand Star while consuming the universe while being able to tank said black holes twice."

The punches part is irrelevant, Mario has never demonstrated the level of punching power you're suggesting. The meteors, as I said, are made out of rock and metal, it isn't like they're planetary threats there's nothing to suggest that.

And again, consuming the universe (with aid of a ship) != durability. For an analogy, a universal matter manipulator can still be shot in the head.

"Second, there was scan from a prima guide of the first game that stated Rosalina protected Mario and Peach from the black hole while Bowser was left behind but was still alive but shaken that he barely survived it"

Since when are Prima Guide's canon?
 
Nerfing Mario and Bowser to 4-C seems acceptable, perhaps, though it should be noted that if this is implemented, this should still scale to their combat-applicable power, seeing as Bowser uses the Power Stars and Grand Star to empower himself in combat and therefore is fueled by the entirety of the same power source.
 
LordXcano said:
I'm going to take DRB's comment piece by piece.
"In the beginning of the video I provided, Bowser is, indeed, abosrbing celestial matter of the universe and power stars."

Celestial matter less than the size of his *maybe* 100 mile long ship, and with the aid of said ship. Then again, consumption != attack potency/striking.

"On top of that, the Rosalina and her Lumas in the Observatory was also caught in the mix via the comet Bowser was also absorbing and we all should be aware of what they are cabale of in the first and even in the same game"

That is just a random blue comet, there's no indication that Rosalina is in there, especially since IIRC she never appears except for the final secret level.

"Bowser fell into both Black Holes twice(First time is in 10:45 and the second is in 12:25)"

True, although the fact that weird purple matter appears around him as he's falling in makes me more inclined to say they're portals, especially as every black hole up until then had a distinctive look to it. The second one even disappears right after the fight along with Bowser.

Even if they were black holes, this doesn't mean his durability is galactic? As you said in the first game the Grand Star destroys the universe but that was with a much much larger black hole and with an entire game's worth of prep time.

"That's way too low from taking hits(both physical via punches and celestial magic via meteors and fire breath) and harming somebody with the power of the Grand Star while consuming the universe while being able to tank said black holes twice."

The punches part is irrelevant, Mario has never demonstrated the level of punching power you're suggesting. The meteors, as I said, are made out of rock and metal, it isn't like they're planetary threats there's nothing to suggest that.

And again, consuming the universe (with aid of a ship) != durability. For an analogy, a universal matter manipulator can still be shot in the head.

"Second, there was scan from a prima guide of the first game that stated Rosalina protected Mario and Peach from the black hole while Bowser was left behind but was still alive but shaken that he barely survived it"

Since when are Prima Guide's canon?
Click to expand...


So what, you are going to start downgrading the antagonist in Zelda for similar reasons? What are you speculating? We are talking about the celestial matter of the universe, not in 100 miles. And the comet is indeed Rosalina. You can clearly see that in the ending. The reason the black hole disappear after Bowser fell into it the second time is because he was defeated. It makes sense that Black Hole he created would disappear once he does. Both AP and durability are indeed 3-B. We already witness what the Grand Star, Rosalina, and the Lumas does in SMG1. Put together the fact Bowser was absorbing Rosalina and her observatory in a form of a comet, with the power of the Grand Star(Infact, he had more than 1 if you taken the first few boss fights into consideration), and the Black Hole Bowser created in SMG2 overpowered the one in World 6, which already contained several galaxies to begin with and tanking both Black Holes, it's justified. Finally, the Galaxy Generator requires prep time. Not the Grand Star. It was the misuse of it that caused the destruction of the universe in the first place.

You are mixing up the feats again. I'm talking about what Bowser's punches, not Mario's. Meteorites are still create from the power of the Grand Star. The aren't "just rock" if they can harm the same person who attacked in the first place.

"Since when the Prima Guides are canon"

Since the Nintendo exclusive ones tell us what the games left out such as Rosalina protecting Mario and Peach and downgraded them in the first place.
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
We already witness what the Grand Star, Rosalina, and the Lumas does in SMG1. Put together the fact Bowser was absorbing Rosalina and her observatory in a form of a comet, with the power of the Grand Star(Infact, he had more than 1 if you taken the first few boss fights into consideration), and the Black Hole Bowser created in SMG2 overpowered the one in World 6, which already contained several galaxies to begin with and tanking both Black Holes, it's justified.
Click to expand...
Rosalina is still >> everyone and everything else in SMG though, so I doubt she was actually in any danger.

Other than that, hm...I do see your point.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Dino Ranger Black said:
We already witness what the Grand Star, Rosalina, and the Lumas does in SMG1. Put together the fact Bowser was absorbing Rosalina and her observatory in a form of a comet, with the power of the Grand Star(Infact, he had more than 1 if you taken the first few boss fights into consideration), and the Black Hole Bowser created in SMG2 overpowered the one in World 6, which already contained several galaxies to begin with and tanking both Black Holes, it's justified.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Rosalina is still >> everyone and everything else in SMG though, so I doubt she was actually in any danger.
Other than that, hm...I do see your point.


Obviously, since she restarted the universe. But you can't really ignore the fact she was being absorb by Bowser as well....
 
Wait she was? that happened in SMG2 right cause i never played the game only SMG1
 
I provided a video link in my first post. In a cutscene prior into entering the final level, it's shown that Bowser was absorbing power stars and matter of the universe. A blue comet was also one of them and the cutscene after defeating Bowser revealed that comet happens to the observatory with Rosalina in it.
 
so its just the observatory but not rosalina inside it or she was inside it?
 
Ok if using SMG2 feats i got no saying as i never played it SMG1 i will see if that is legit or no
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
Rosalina was definitely inside the observatory.
Click to expand...
Okay, but like I said, it's incredibly unlikely Rosalina was fighting back, considering she could literally one-shot everyone else in the universe.
 
I think we're forgetting that so far DRB has defended Bowser (with the Grand Star) being galactic, not Mario, so he's still up for the downgrade.

EDIT: Thought I should say that galaxies in Mario aren't real galaxies unless they're shown to be. First world in SMG2 takes place in a Solar System but they still call the levels "galaxies". They're closer to very small countries, maybe a mountain range. It's incredibly evident they aren't the full several billion star filled monsters they are in real life.

EDIT 2: The Prima Guide was made by Fletcher Black, who, notably, does not appear to work for Nintendo. So no, it wouldn't be canon.
 
I think that LordXcano has a point about the "galaxies" being extremely small.
 
Kirby is listed as Large Star Level+ for having a move equivalent to a black hole. So Bowser surviving 2 black holes would also make him Large Star Level+ in durability if I'm correct.
 
Huh. So Large Star level+ for Bowser and Mario then, yes? @LordXcano. Also seeing that Luigi also has stats from SMG that matchs the former two, what should we do with his?
 
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