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Emprah vs thanos (full powah) ---- Done (inconclusive)

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To quote Matthew from a few threads back...

Matthew Schroeder said:
TLT is much stronger and has complete control over the cosmic abstractions and concepts that make up his reality. This is like Emperor going up not agains the 4 Chaos Gods at once, but someone who is beyond them and holds complete sway over what they embody.
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And... well, we know HotU Thanos >> Tribunal
 
That's ABC logic. Marvel Abstracts hold complete control over the aspect/ concept they embody. It's in their nature. Doom on the other hand is a 3-Dimensional being wielding Infinite-D powers that he cannot fully comprehend and can't even freely wield it but had to channel it from Molecule Man. Just because Beyonders defeated Tribunal with AP doesn't mean Doom holds complete control over that AP, let alone hax
 
What have you done you maniac!??

For real though im voting Thanos because i believe he has higher AP due to overpowering the Tribunal which is FAR above dozens of High 1-B abstract beings.
 
Ok then, GoEM for holding off 4 gods who vastly transcend a space that at it's surface, vastly transcends an already High 1-B space. Honestly Azathoths quote in the thread puts it better.
 
Umm what quote?

Also as Matthew said this is like Emperor going against not the Chaos Gods but a being that holds sway over them and their respective domains. And Thanos bested the LT and such with no real issue.
 
Hellbeast1 said:
Also as Matthew said this is like Emperor going against not the Chaos Gods but a being that holds sway over them and their respective domains. And Thanos bested the LT and such with no real issue.
Click to expand...
Yes. And then popular opinion slipped much farther towards the Emperor, with even Matt going for Inconclusive.
 
Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is another entity entirely. His power comes directly from The-One-Above-All himself.
 
Lmao

Seriously though, I actually reread The End less than a month ago, and HOTU Thanos is blown hilariously out of proportion. I can post scan once I step back onto my computer, but "Thanos ansorbed a universe" is kinda stated multiple times throughout a single issue alone.
 
Nobody says that he absorbed the Marvel Omniverse, he absorbed a universe yes. But his power came directly from the One Above All, it is a power source stated on another story to be above the power of the Tribunal, which is also shown in that story, and the handbook confirms it was the full Tribunal that got absorbed. It makes no mention of M-Bodies.

This is like saying that the Infinity Stones are just Low 2-C for being the equivalent of a remote control for a single universe, when they are infinitely above 2-C beings.

Also if we're playing statements, it is not only stated that his power heralded directly from the One Above All, but Eternity even states that Thanos has, in effect, become the One Above All.
 
The handbook also confirms Oblivion has a time axis and is below the Tribunal, but we don't use that. Also, making no mention of M-Bodies =/= there being no M-Body involved. Especially when the very story itself contradicts this on a fundamental level.

I will use scans only from issues 5 and 6 to keep this relatively short, even though more proof exists in issues 1-4.

HOTU Thanos observes the fundamental flaw in the universe, not all of reality. On top of this, he fully recognizes that he is unable to reverse or save it.

Thanos was confronted by the forces of this universe, not others.

Adam Warlock survived by being in Atleza's realm, outside the universe. Not only does this shown Thanos did not absorb the full Eternity or TLT, but it's pretty obvious he absorbed a single universe. There's an Atleza for each timeline, to anchor each universe. This Atleza isn't even the 616 one.

Thanos didn't even absorb Death, so obviously he didn't absorb the complete TLT.

Thanos restores the universe, not all of reality.


Even in the context of the story, calling him "second to TOAA" or "capable of destroying the complete TLT" is blatantly false. He's beyond universal Abstract scale. That's it.
 
"Especially when the very story itself contradicts this on a fundamental level."

It really doesn't. That only comes from asumptions. The Handbook in this case doesn't contradict the story. It was the Tribunal who appeared and the handbook says it was the Tribunal. Not a manifestation.

Which is confirmed in later stories.

He absorbed the Tribunal, who in this context of this story is separate from death. Tribunal being the composite of the Abstracts has come up once.

The HOTU is directly heralding from the TOAA and he is stated to be second, or even equal.

The HOTU appears in other storylines and in it Infinity states that it is more powerful than the Tribunal, and in The Infinity Finale Thanos outright states that he once gained a portion of TOAA's "Omni-Reality Powers" when talking directly to TOAA.

The Heart of the Universe only warped one universe because it is the Heart of the Universe, every universe has its on. But that doesn't mean it's only Low 2-C in scale much like the IG isn't Low 2-C only.
 
The handbook also confirms Oblivion has a time axis and is below the Tribunal, but we don't use that.

That is not at all a reason to discredit the entire databook. Those particular bits are flat-out contradicted by the series itself. Oblivion itself states he has none of the limitations Death, Infinity and Eternity have.

A statement from supporting material should be taken as proof unless the primary canon outright contradicts it or if it is self-contradictory

Thanos didn't even absorb Death, so obviously he didn't absorb the complete TLT.

TLT and Death were separate at this point of the story.

I won't engage you in the rest, just pointing out the most blatant things I disagreed with.
 
Okay, I am in no way shape or form trying to turn this into a shit storm, I am sorry for coming off that way and I'm interested in seeing this.
 
@Matt

"The Handbook in this case doesn't contradict the story. It was the Tribunal who appeared and the handbook says it was the Tribunal. Not a manifestation."

Except it just says "the Tribunal". If Thanos absorbed the Tribunal + Eternity + Infinity, and there were still realms of the multiverse he didn't absorb, then he didn't absorb the entire Tribunal.

"He absorbed the Tribunal, who in this context of this story is separate from death. Tribunal being the composite of the Abstracts has come up once."

And is established later when the Tribunal is the full embodiment of the Marvel multiverse. If he didn't affect all the Abstracts, even if we ignore Oblivion, he's not affecting the entire Tribunal. Further clarified by the fact that, again, he's repeatedly only stated to affect and absorb one universe.

"The HOTU is directly heralding from the TOAA and he is stated to be second, or even equal."

Literally nothing in the actual story suggests this on anything beyond a universal scale.

"The HOTU appears in other storylines and in it Infinity states that it is more powerful than the Tribunal, and in The Infinity Finale Thanos outright states that he once gained a portion of TOAA's "Omni-Reality Powers" when talking directly to TOAA."

Do you have the page? Because not every "compares to the Tribunal" is as clear-cut as the Beyonders explicitly murdering TLT across all planes of existence, or something.

"The Heart of the Universe only warped one universe because it is the Heart of the Universe, every universe has its on. But that doesn't mean it's only Low 2-C in scale much like the IG isn't Low 2-C only."

This isn't about it only warping the universe. If you want to scale it from the full Abstracts due to beating the universal Abstracts that show up in The End, but Thanos killing them very blatantly doesn't effect universes or realities beyond his own, you need to show they're the full Abstracts, in the first place.


@Kep

"That is not at all a reason to discredit the entire databook. Those particular bits are flat-out contradicted by the series itself. Oblivion itself states he has none of the limitations Death, Infinity and Eternity have."

These are also limitations the Tribunal has. It's not exactly 100% contradictory. We just assume it is because it makes things easier.

"A statement from supporting material should be taken as proof unless the primary canon outright contradicts it or if it is self-contradictory"

And again, this statement doesn't say "HOTU Thanos >>>> full Tribunal".

"TLT and Death were separate at this point of the story."

Again, where is the proof of this on a multiversal level, which is what's being claimed?
 
Just a thought. What proof you have that it isn't the full Tribunal? Re-reading the story, nothing indicates it isn't, and there's evidence of the contrary.
 
Evidence to the contrary being:

  • He only interacted with and governed a single universe.
  • His destruction was explicitly shown to affect a single universe, the same with Eternity and Infinity.
  • Every event within the story is shown to have allowed other realities to remain intact, such at Atleza's realm, which is the anchor to the universe "The End" takes place in.
 
Actually.

  • He was never said to govern a single universe. He was focused on a single universe as that was where the trouble was. He's focused on single universes before. Just like Multi-Eternity has appeared in the 616 Universe before multiple times, both in the Abraxas storyline and the Chaos War storyline.
  • It wasn't his destruction. It was Thanos absorbing the whole universe to become one with it, and everything that was on the way got absorbed as well.
  • This literally doesn't prove anything. It's literally the AoE Fallacy but on a Higher-Dimensional scale. In Shin Megami Tensei II you fight YHVH inside a spaceship, in Digimon Cyber Sleuth there's a scene where 8 2-As have a fight inside a building. Masadaverse has 1-As fighting on Earth.
Still writing my main response post.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Evidence to the contrary being:
Click to expand...
Shouldn't GEOM have the AP advantage anyway due to being = 4 Chaos Gods who control a plane that transcends High 1-B realms to the point of appearing 1-A at deeper levels?
 
  • His cosmic court was composed of the inhabitants of one universe, as well as universal Abstracts. To assume this is a full, multiversal Tribunal, we need proof that he is, we can't just believe it automatically. If you have scans that show this as the complete multiversal Tribunal or that the events of The End affected every universe when Thanos absorbed Eternity, Infinity, and TLT, just post them, because it'll clear things up.
  • That is destruction. Nothing existed, any more. Again, had this been the full Tribunal, its effects would have been throughout every reality, not one.
  • That is an extreme false equivalence when dealing with the literal embodiments of the multiverse, and you know that very well.
 
Just addressing your last point. The other universes remaining intact doesn't mean anything. It's literally every single 3-A fight that happens right next to the Earth and doesn't do shit to it, but in a higher scale.

It's the same as Odin and Galactus duking it out and punching each other on the exosphere, still right next to the Earth, entering the atmosphere at MFTL+ speeds and literally doing nothing at all once they fell.

It's the same as WB Hulk causing continental tremors with his steps, HM Hulk obliterating entire planets in the Dark Dimension with glancing blows, and then teleporting to the Earth and doing jack shit with direct blows.

It's literally an omnipresent Plot Armor that the battlefield has.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Just addressing your last point. The other universes remaining intact doesn't mean anything. It's literally every single 3-A fight that happens right next to the Earth and doesn't do shit to it, but in a higher scale.
Click to expand...
Again, no, it means everything. This logic doesn't remotely work when dealing with the literal embodiments of reality. It's like saying "Thanos could absorb the multiverse while only absorbing one universe".
 
Lightbuster30 said:
Shouldn't GEOM have the AP advantage anyway due to being = 4 Chaos Gods who control a plane that transcends High 1-B realms to the point of appearing 1-A at deeper levels?
Click to expand...
Entirely dependent on context, which is very vague for the Chaos Gods.
 
Except it's still an explanation no matter the scale of the feat. Literally the same thing happens with YHVH on SMT, for example. Matt even provided 1-A examples of this trope.

God of War also has a god-tier that literally embodies the universe itself punch the air without turning his universe to dust. Not to mention the examples I provided myself.

Calling the argument a false equivalence is a cop-out. There is no reason for it to be, or at least you didn't provide any.
 
Entirely dependent on context, which is very vague for the Chaos Gods.

Oh. I just figured the same logic would work here since you used it in GED vs GEOM....I really have to work on not using that fallacy.
 
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